Tubes from Doug for my Express 5:50

[soundchaser59]

Hey Soundchaser - I've noticed you'll often answer a question somene's asking about the 5:50 with your experience with a 5:25. I know you're trying to be helpful and all but they're not the same amp at all. Your experience with a 5:25 is just not applicable to a 5:50 IMO.

My bad, pardon me.

But I dont agree, not completely anyway. I've played the 5.50, the amps are different but not completely different. But I was trying to point out that you get a more unpleasant kind of distortion if you put a lower gain tube in the line before higher gain tubes. I'm no expert, as you obviously can see, but my experience was if I put a lower gain tube in V1 or V2, with full gain 12AX7's remaining in V3 and V4, then the distortion was very early and very crappy......if I could get it to quit being microphonic long enough to keep the volume turned up. My uneducated guess is because the higher gain tubes run more current than the lower gain tubes. The only way I could get the mix of different gain tubes to sound good was if I put the lower gain tube in the P.I. slot.

I wont pretend to know exactly why the mix of tubes ruined my sound, but I chose to report my experience with it because I believe you will get this same result/behaviour whether you try it in the 5.25 or the 5.50 or most any other all-tube amp. I dont believe that this is a result that is peculiar only to the 5.25, and I would be surprised if anybody hears what I heard and concludes that it is a better distortion sound than what you can get from a good pedal. I only played it that way for a few minutes and could say nothing other than "That sounds like sh***t!"

And I reckon tube amp distortion is always better quality than any pedal anyways and that's especially true of the 5:50.

Yes, distortion from a tube amp with all 12AX7's in place in all slots (or all 5751's in all slots) will (almost) always be better than any pedal distortion, but that's not really what I was referring to. Besides, I have recently been quite tempted to save some extra $$$$$ to trade in my 5.25 for a 5.50, then you'll have to put up with me in the 5.50 threads! :mrgreen:

 

[edward]

...last post on the following thread
http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=40703

Just my two cents. So many variables in tube families, brands, and positions; not least of which is one's individual tone preferances.

Edward

 

[Newysurfer]

Hey Soundchaser - I've noticed you'll often answer a question somene's asking about the 5:50 with your experience with a 5:25. I know you're trying to be helpful and all but they're not the same amp at all. Your experience with a 5:25 is just not applicable to a 5:50 IMO.

My bad, pardon me.

But I dont agree, not completely anyway. I've played the 5.50, the amps are different but not completely different. But I was trying to point out that you get a more unpleasant kind of distortion if you put a lower gain tube in the line before higher gain tubes. I'm no expert, as you obviously can see, but my experience was if I put a lower gain tube in V1 or V2, with full gain 12AX7's remaining in V3 and V4, then the distortion was very early and very crappy......if I could get it to quit being microphonic long enough to keep the volume turned up. My uneducated guess is because the higher gain tubes run more current than the lower gain tubes. The only way I could get the mix of different gain tubes to sound good was if I put the lower gain tube in the P.I. slot.

I wont pretend to know exactly why the mix of tubes ruined my sound, but I chose to report my experience with it because I believe you will get this same result/behaviour whether you try it in the 5.25 or the 5.50 or most any other all-tube amp. I dont believe that this is a result that is peculiar only to the 5.25, and I would be surprised if anybody hears what I heard and concludes that it is a better distortion sound than what you can get from a good pedal. I only played it that way for a few minutes and could say nothing other than "That sounds like sh***t!"

And I reckon tube amp distortion is always better quality than any pedal anyways and that's especially true of the 5:50.

Yes, distortion from a tube amp with all 12AX7's in place in all slots (or all 5751's in all slots) will (almost) always be better than any pedal distortion, but that's not really what I was referring to. Besides, I have recently been quite tempted to save some extra $$$$$ to trade in my 5.25 for a 5.50, then you'll have to put up with me in the 5.50 threads! :mrgreen:

No prob's Soundchaser - you're the only guy I've heard of who put lower gain tubes in their Express. Everyone else is doing the opposite. An experiment that didn't work out obviously. If you move up to a 5:50 I think you'll find that 6L6 amps really are a different beast to EL84's in lotsa ways :mrgreen:

 

[edward]

Actually, I've found that lower-gain tubes have improved my last three Mesas and a Fender. Not all amps sound better, to be sure, but in my experience, these have. Part of that is likely due to the fact Boogies are high-gain amps from their very design (except a few notables). Couple this with the fact that I am not a high-gain player. So while I still like the core tone of the boogies I own (and have owned in the past), gaining down has given them rounder, less edgy tones. "Sweetened" up is an over-used phrase when describing tone, but yeah, that's precisely what I have done to all my mesas. I still retain plenty of gain on tap, just not uber gain. But the real improvement is in the character as well as the tone I get.

FWIW, it takes experimenting. And every amp behaves differently so there is not even a "formula" one can ascribe to and apply to others. You have to know your particular amp, know what you are shooting for, and have some basic understanding of what kind of tubes you have in your hand. Not every change is an "improvement" ;but improvements can be found with some judicious change.

Edward

 

[soundchaser59]

No prob's Soundchaser - you're the only guy I've heard of who put lower gain tubes in their Express. Everyone else is doing the opposite. An experiment that didn't work out obviously. If you move up to a 5:50 I think you'll find that 6L6 amps really are a different beast to EL84's in lotsa ways :mrgreen:

You are absolutely right. The two amps are structured similar I suppose, and may function similar on the surface, but the real meat of the sound is different.......and I finally realize that the 6L6 beast is much more well qualified for the job. My experiment did not pan out, but I'm glad I did it so that I know how my amp behaves. I did enjoy the full power sound when I had 5751's in every slot, but at the time I was running the 5w mode and the 12AX7's are really the only way to make 5w mode usable. My Frenzel 5E3 let's me swap out various tubes, but the 6L6's have been the best sound by a long mile, very noticeable difference. I tried to send the EL34's back to Frenzel, but he told me to keep them as spares. I cant wait to jump over to the 5.50 side of the force. 8)

 

[Animeka]

Ok! Got my tubes from Doug today... Now I feel like a total moron. Where do they go?

I got 2 6L6, those are obvious, but the others are a mixture of Sovtek, Tung-Sol, JJ etc..

From what I can see, there is no identification on the sockets for the smaller tubes, so anything goes?

EDIT: Ok, after reading the user's guide, I figured my assumption was wrong. Each tube has a different function so which goes where?



(1) Matched Pair Ruby 6L6 (seems obvious)

V1 to V5 in that order? or...

(1) Tung Sol 12ax7
(1) High Gain JJ
(1) Penta 12ax7
(1) Shuguang 12ax7 9th gen.
(1) Sovtek LPS 12ax7

 

[edward]

All the preamp tubes are 12ax7s so no harm in putting them in any which way. But the whole point of following a specific recommendation as this is that it the one who had made the recommendation has done the trial/error work for you and has arrived at that particular recipe.

IIRC, Doug's "recommended" tube set for the Express has been indentified on a previous thread. Try a search for "Doug" in the Express archives and see if you can find it. Or email Doug.

Edward

 

[Newysurfer]

Actually, I've found that lower-gain tubes have improved my last three Mesas and a Fender. Not all amps sound better, to be sure, but in my experience, these have. Part of that is likely due to the fact Boogies are high-gain amps from their very design (except a few notables). Couple this with the fact that I am not a high-gain player. So while I still like the core tone of the boogies I own (and have owned in the past), gaining down has given them rounder, less edgy tones. "Sweetened" up is an over-used phrase when describing tone, but yeah, that's precisely what I have done to all my mesas. I still retain plenty of gain on tap, just not uber gain. But the real improvement is in the character as well as the tone I get.

FWIW, it takes experimenting. And every amp behaves differently so there is not even a "formula" one can ascribe to and apply to others. You have to know your particular amp, know what you are shooting for, and have some basic understanding of what kind of tubes you have in your hand. Not every change is an "improvement" ;but improvements can be found with some judicious change.

Edward

Good points there Edward - I can see the attraction of lower gain tubes if you're a clean player and will never use the higher gain distortion. I do so it's just not something I'd ever consider. I put a high gain JJ in mine at V2. Increased gain by around 20% and didn't effect the cleans at all :mrgreen:

 

[Trea]

I agree with what Edward said about experimenting. I ordered the same tube set from Doug a while back and while I've been pleased with them I found I like the sound a bit better with the Penta in V2 and the JJ in V3. It sounds a little smoother and a bit quieter to my ears, but it might be my particular tube or amp. Bottom line is use the recommendations as a starting point but don't be afraid to experiment.