Trying to pickout tubes for my Roadster Combo - Thoughts?

[Sheekamoo]

I'm almost certain I want to switch from my stock 6L6's to EL34's. I love my Roadster, but I still feel like it's a little too boomy, and there aren't enough mids. For that reason, I think the EL34's will be exactly what I'm looking for. I don't play any metal, mostly just rock (which makes me think the EL34's would be more to my liking).

The only thing that concerns me about the EL34's is losing my cleans on channel 1. When playing live, I usually spend 80-90% of my time in the clean channel. I'm afraid that with any EL34, I'm going to break up too early when upping my volume to match with a drummer. But I guess that's just a $120 (for a set of 4 power tubes) that I'll have to try out for myself and see if it's what I want.

Anyways, it seems like most people on here either recommend the JJ EL34's or the Winged-C EL34's. I've heard a few people say they don't like JJ's, but almost everyone has nothing but good things to say about the Winged-C EL34's. Based on that, I'm pretty much set on the Winged-C EL34's for my power tubes.

What I'm confused on is pre-amp tubes. Looking at my Roadster, it looks like all the pre-amp tubes are 12ax7's. I'm also pretty certain they're cheap, and possibly bad quality, tubes. Knowing that, I'd like to replace all of them (and keep the old tubes as backups for when playing live).

I know V1 is the most important pre-amp tube and a lot of people say that just replacing that one tube made a big (positive) difference in their amp sound. I found a thread on here that was really helpful in explaining what each of the different pre-amp tubes do:

http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=32608

V1 & V2 - Most will say V1 is the most important slot of the preamp and they would be right... but not fully when in terms with the Roadster. In the Roadster i have found V1 and V2 really work together a lot more than other amps. I found V1 really sets up the whole preamp in terms of headroom, compression and the higher frequencies. I experimented with tubes that stayed very clean and some that broke up very early and what i found was the ones that stayed clean at high volumes offered the most headroom to the entire preamp no matter what i put in any other slot (with maybe the exception of V6 but we'll get to that in a bit). So with that logic if you throw a tube that has an earlier breakup point the entire amp will feel more compressed and will give you "heavier" or "crunchier" tones at lower levels which was great for channels 3 and 4 but limited channels 1 and 2 somewhat.

Ok so enough with V1 because its only half of what will completely define the amp in the end. V2 much to my suprise plays a much bigger part in the whole preamps structure than what i thought or read anywhere else. To me V2 is where you can add a lot of character by defining the mids and adding harmonic complexity. The way i came about this is if i put a very mid heavy tube in V2 the whole amp would ahve more mids. Putting in a tube with less would give the amo less and if you pick a tube that has the right amount of mids and that yield very rich harmonics, those characteristics will carry to the entire amp. What took a lot of time was trying every different combination in V1 and V2 to see what felt/sounded right and what i came to realize is that if you choose a preamp tube with the right headroom (breakup point) and the right characteristic in the highs, and then selected a tube with the right amount of highs and the right harmonic complexity, anything else i tried in the other slots had a minimal effect on the overall sound (with a slight exception for V6). So I ended up putting in a Sylvania in V1 due to it having a high breakup point and nice glassy highs and a Siemens in V2 as it seemed to have the richest harmonics and the perfect amount of mids. If any recto user has read this far here is why i love this combo in V1 and V2 so much:

1. More headroom which keeps the cleans super sweet and super clean with those glassy, sparkling fender highs
2. Overall the amp has more mids than with the stock tubes... why is this important? The leads are 10x better and creates a much full attack for rhythms
3. NO MORE FIZZ!!! Thats right the biggest downside to a recto in mot peoples eyes. Now the Roadster is probably the least fizziest Recto but my fizz is now non-existant unless i dime my presence. This solution is cheaper than running an eq in the loop and sounds better as its organically created.


V3 - I found through many nights or hair pulling and cursing that you need to select V3 very carefully and make sure its chosen in respect to whats in V1 and V2. V3 seems to control the overall amount of bass on tap. If V1 and V2 aren't strong enough in the high end and the tube in V3 has a very pronounced bottom end you end up with an amp that sounds very vintage and could be boarder line flubby even with most of the bass dialed out. It would also kill and sort of crunch you would expect out of channel 3 vintage mode. What i found to be the right balance was having tubes in V1 and V2 that were very strong in the highs and mids and then selecting a tube with the amount of bass you want. Warmer the tube in V3 the more vintage-y the amp would sound, and also the flubbier. I started and eventually ended up with a GE Long Plate in V3... when i started i didnt have the Sylvania and Siemens in V1 and V2, and having the long plate in V3 , i ended up with an amp that was waaaaayyyy too bassy. Then once i found the Sylvania and Siemens was the right tubes for me in V1 and V2, i tried every other tube i had in V3 and was trying to stay away from the long plate because of past experiments. I had a mullard in there until i tried the GE long plate ago and low and behold it had the right chemistry for me. The lows with the GE long plate are pronounced and strong without being flubby (the mullard i found super warm but also pretty flubby for v3).

V4 & V5 - With the help of the Mesa RK manual and Shred I learned V4 is for your reverb and V5 is for the fx loop. Going on his advice i went with a warmer tube for the reverb and as very clear/quiet tube for the fx loop. After much experimenting i found that Shred's formula was on point. I have a Mullard 12at7 in V4 as it gives me a warmer reverb than all the other tubes. In V5 i have a GE12at7wc as it is the clearest in tone and really sent the best signal to my Axe-fx. What i did find is putting the Mullard in V5 added a bit of warmth to my effects which can be great for warming up digital delays and reverbs. For my taste i found the GE a better tube as I kind of dig the little bits of digital characteristics the axe-fx adds (different than other digital fx i've used). Since the axe-fx has very complex reverbs, the mullard ended up warming them up into mush so that was the biggest reason for keeping the GE in V5. Now in the future I'm going to experiment with a some different tubes (other than the ones i have) in V4 to see if i can improve on the reverb anymore.

V6 - With Shred wealth of knowledge i found the phase inverter V6 to control the overall presence of the amp. V1 and V2 still have the most control over the highs and mids but V6 can determine how glassy or mellow they are. Put a tube thats very strong in the highs and your highs can be somewhat ear piercing and it can also add a little bit of fizz (not much but if you tend to run the presence high then yeah its there). I exerimented with 2 basic tubes here... one being Matsushita 12ax7 and a Mullard 12ax7. The Mullard has very smooth highs so i found putting it in V6 gave me a slightly mellower presence which if i were a lead player i might opt for it. The Matsushita has amazing highs and mids hat can border on brash. I ended up with the Matsushita mainly because it gave me a much wider presence sweep and giving me more control over the presence knob. The only caveat can be since it has very strong highs and mids that can breakup quite easily its important to note where you run your presence at. If i dime the presence some of the fizz comes back and the hgihs can be slightly piercing... but suprisingly the the sweep of the presence is so wide with this tube in V6 that as long as i keep the presence between off and 2 oclock i'm golden. For Channel 4 modern i keep my presence at 9 oclock since i use it mainly for leads and single note type stuff (*** well as a rhythm that sits further back in the mix when need be). In channels 1 and 3 i keep the presence around 1 oclock... this gives me the glassy like highs in channel 1 clean tweed (running gain very low) and gives me a nice crunchy metallica rhythm in channel 3. Actually i find my channel 3 vintage right now bordering mark IV territory which is awesome.

If you don't want to read all that, basically, V1 controls the trebles, V2 controls the mids, and V3 controls the bass. V4 is for the reverb and V5 is for the effects loop. V6 is the phase inverter that controls the amps presence.

He later posted the tubes he was running in his amp:

V1- Sylvania 12ax7 short-plate
V2- Siemens ecc83 long-plate
V3- GE 12ax7a Long plate
V4- Mullard 12at7
V5- GE 12at7wc 6201
V6- Matsushita 12ax7a

I tried looking for some of those tubes but could only find the Mullard 12at7 for sale. I'm pretty sure a lot of those tubes are older, and were ones he had lying around in a box that he decided to test on his Roadster.

Based of what he has reported and what I've read on here, I should probably go with a V1 tube with a high headroom and glossy highs. The extra headroom will help keep my CH1 cleans from breaking up to early and giving me a nice glossy clean tone. V2 I'd want a pre-amp tube with a moderate about of mids with a good amount of harmonics. I couldn't find the Siemens ecc83 long-plate he referred to though (from the online stores I've been checking).

I like his idea on using a warmer tube for V4 (to warm up the reverb), and a cleaner tube on V5 to make sure the effects loop is as clean sounding as possible.

That being said, what tubes would you recommend for my amp?

Power Tubes - As I mentioned at the beginning of this post, I'm leaning towards Winged-C EL34's.
Pre-Amp V1 - I want a tube that will keep my amp from breaking up too early while giving my glossy highs. He used a Sylvania 12ax7 short-plate.
Pre-Amp V2 - I want a nice average mid sounding tube but with a good amount of harmonics. He used a Siemens ecc83 long-plate.
Pre-Amp V3 - No idea here. He used a GE 12ax7a Long plate.
Pre-Amp V4 - A nice warm sounding tube. The Mullard 12at7 would probably be the one for me.
Pre-Amp V5 - Probably something very transparent/clean. He used a GE 12at7wc 6201.
Pre-Amp V6 - No ideas. He used a Matsushita 12ax7a

So what do you guys think? Can you recommend some tubes for me based on that information above?

Or am I just over-thinking all this? Would I be better off just buying some good quality power tubes, and a good quality V1 and V2 tube while filling the rest of the pre-amp tubes with average priced 12ax7's? I'm sure every tube would make a difference in the overall sound, but I'm not sure if it's worth worrying about all this minor sound differences between tubes and trying to mix and match many different brand/type pre-amp tubes. Maybe I should only worry about the power tubes, V1 and V2 pre-amp tubes, and just replace the stock 12ax7's when they fail?

Sorry for the long post by the way. I tried to break everything up to make it easy to read.

 

[yeti]

i'm relatively new to re-tubing too...
i got a quad of ruby 6L6 from guitar center for 50. cant beat that, and, i really like them. they're tight, big and clear sounding. look around, you can usually find matched power amp quads cheaper at some places than others.

pre-amp wise...it so subjective, and it's addictive, and unless you have some nice depth to your finances (which, i currently really don't) i think the safest way to get a good representation of preamp tubes would be to buy a varied amount (maybe 5 or 6) new production 12ax7's and get a feel for them. probably around 100 bux worth, or less, or more LOL!

i'll give you the rundown of what i found sounds best in my amp....subjective, and, mostly, against the grain of what you'll read..but...oh well.

-a shauguang silver dragon (12ax7b) (i really like them, nice and gainy, with a little harshness in the treble area, that i personally LOVE)(a must have pre-amp tube)

-a groove tube high gain (i like them, and they're really, honestly, good in any position in my amp)

-a jj ecc83 (dark, thick and gainy, not too heavy on any one eq parameter, but the bass is overall big in these. i use it in my tone contour position)

-a tung sol reissue (a bit dark, and grainy, but makes for some oomph in a later gain stage, say 3 or even 4. a bright amp my like this tube a lot, my amp doesn't match well with it, personally, i dont like them in any position, and will resell it, but still, REALLY worth a try for 15 bux...cant complain)(a must have, only because so many other ppl have had success with them and like them a lot)

-a sovtek lps (matched or not, it makes a nice PI position tube)(a must have)

-a mullard 12at7 cv4024 (for the 2nd tube in your gain stage, or even the first, it REALLY tightens things up THANKS TIMBRE WOLF for that tip that i read!!! highly recommend this tube MOST if you only get one..really!)***********

-a sovtek 5751 (love them for reverb and effects loop)

-an electro harmonix 12ax7 (haven't tried, maybe you can and let me know!!!hahah)
-a svetlana. (haven't tried)

i dumped about 100 bux on new production tubes...and it gave me an idea what my particular amp is voiced for tone wise, and what works with it tubewise (or what you like).
a good place to start learning and looking is http://thetubestore.com/12ax70ectyp.html and http://www.dougstubes.com/12ax7.html . both places will answer questions and help you, esp Doug! do some homework first too.

then, when you figure out which ones u dont like, just sell them as opened but unused tubes on ebay, or keep them for spares. i've bought about 6 new production tubes to start, and out of about 20 NOS tubes off ebay, i've found 2 kinds of NOS tube that i like, that fit in with my new production tubes cocktail. all the other ones are getting re-sold on ebay. i figured out that i dont like the NOS sound that a lot of the RCA, sylvania, GE's, mullard, telefunken and others have.

as far as NOS, i do however, for hi gain rock sounds, like the baldwin green and orange labeled 12ax7s in my amp inany gain stage, they just sound nice and thick, sweet and classic to my ears.

thats about it.

order
open
roll
repeat!

 

[yeti]

also, that mullard cv4024 will do magic in your clean channels. i'm actually contemplating getting 2 more and running them in v1 and v4 just to see.

 

[fishyfishfish]

Over thinking dude.
It can be fun to experiment with tubes, but you can get more just by changing the speaker.
I spent a fortune on tubes and my Recto still sounded like a Recto, Lonestar still sounded like a Mark 1 with a tube screamer, and my Bogner sounded worse when I went NOS. A cheaper fix is to put a low gain booster or comp in the front end to give you what you what you want, and you don't have to flip the amp over. OR new speaker.

 

[yeti]

agreed!
too boomy, not enough mids were the complaints

try an eq pedal driving the front of it....boost or cut as needed!

 

[Sheekamoo]

Thanks for the replies guys.

And thank you Bottle Rocket for the detailed reply about what tubes you're using and how they changed your sound. I printed your reply to reference later when I go to order some new tubes .

I actually run an OD808 in front of the amp and generally prefer that sound to the stock roadster channels 3-4.

I love the 6l6's because they have nice glassy cleans (similar to the cleans on Fender amps). But channels 3 and 4 always sound like the mids are too scooped and the bass is too boomy. Which lead me to believe that EL34's would suite me perfectly. Don't get me wrong... I love the sound of my roadster. I want my Roadster to still sound like a dual recitifier, but I'd like it to have a little more mid-range bite and a tighter bass response. EL34's sound perfect for that. My only concern is how it will effect my clean channel. I love the current sound the 6L6's give me, and I'm worried the EL34's will take too much of that sound I love away.

I guess in the end it's just a choice I'll have to make and see what sounds best to my ears.

In regards to the pre-amp tubes, I think I'll just buy 3 different tubes and play around with them in different positions to see what sounds best.

That being said, does anyone have any input on:

1.) Preamp tubes for V1, V2, V3, and V6. If you were going to re-tube your amp, what makes/models would you put in those spots?

2.) What's a clean sounding pre-amp tube for an effects loop?

3.) What's a good tube to run in the effects loop position?

 

[yeti]

before you 3l34 it, try a cheap 7 band eq in front of the amp, in front of the 808. boost the mids to taste, and just use it for the channels you want.

 

[konstantine RK]

here is my tube list for my RK1

v1 - SPAX7 (80's Mesa tube)
v2 - Penta Lab 12AX7 (china)
v3 - SPAX& (80's Mesa tube)
v4 - Mesa 12AX7
V5 - Mesa 12AX7

I own many tubes but this is what Im going with for now.

 

[Sheekamoo]

before you 3l34 it, try a cheap 7 band eq in front of the amp, in front of the 808. boost the mids to taste, and just use it for the channels you want.

I'm one of those that are against EQ pedals. The less stuff my signal runs through the better.

I'm really interested in giving the EL34's a shot. For the few negatives I hear about, there are a lot more positives. One of the problems I've often had with this amp is that channels 3 and 4 sound exactly the same... just that 4 has more gain then 3. I've read of numerous people that reported EL34's gave them many more sounds and really made their Mid knob on that amp actually change the sound significantly.

If it doesn't work for me, I can go back to 6L6's and at least I'll know that 6L6's are better suited for me. But I at least need to give it a shot.

 

[Sheekamoo]

here is my tube list for my RK1

v1 - SPAX7 (80's Mesa tube)
v2 - Penta Lab 12AX7 (china)
v3 - SPAX& (80's Mesa tube)
v4 - Mesa 12AX7
V5 - Mesa 12AX7

I own many tubes but this is what Im going with for now.

Thanks for the reply.

I've been researching this for the last couple of days now and I'm thinking about only replacing my V1 and V2 tubes. I'm thinking about going with Tung-Sol 12AX7's based on the number of positive reviews I've read.

At least I can use that as a starting point to see how it affects my amp (since I've never actually played around with different tubes before).

I may even try a new tube in my Reverb spot to see if it warms up the reverb a bit. I'm thinking about trying a Mullard 12AT7WA / CV4024 for that.

 

[konstantine RK]

I got one of those... I had it in V2 for a bit between two russian 12 AX7's... my guitar amp guru told me always... RUssian, Chinese and then Russian again v1 v2 v3

I like swapping them out but the spax tube martini is my usual for now.

 

[Sheekamoo]

So I got my new tubes and put them in today.

=C= EL34's
Tung-Sol 12ax7 in V1
JJ ECC83 in V2
Mullard 12AT7WA in V4

All the other preamp and rectifier tubes are stock.

I didn't test each preamp tube individually but I'll probably give that a shot over the next couple of days to see if I notice tonal differences.

I do have to say though... my amp sounds amazing now. While I like 6L6's and I liked them in my Roadster, I just prefer the sound of EL34's. And the good thing is... my Roadster still sounds like a roadster (not a marshal). I get that awesome dual rectifier sound... but with less bass and highs, and more mids (more even sounding).

I like the clean tones with the EL34's as well. I still like the cleans with the 6L6's a little bit better... but I think the EL34's may sound better in a band (due to them having more mids then 6L6's).

I feel like each channel is more distinctive with the EL34 tubes. The tone controls also seem to work a little better at helping me get the sound I'm looking for.

Once I can save up some money I'll probably pick up the =C= 6L6's to see how those sound... but as of right now, I couldn't be happier with EL34's in my Roadster.

 

[evilpresence]

When I was retubing my DC5 and looking at tubes for my brothers Triple Rec the general consensus (take it for what it is) is EL34's sound better then 6L6's. My brother had already purchased a sextet of matching 6L6 =C= so grabbing a sextet of EL34's wasn't in the budget.

I'm not saying one is better than the other, just throwing it out there before you drop your $$ on 6L6's.


We purchased all our =C= 6L6GC tubes from http://tctubes.com/. Extremely fast shipping to MN and MD.

 

[212Mavguy]

Sheekamoo,

Well done! The post you copied from, jdurso, is the result of some serious research, that guy knows a lot, and from experience more than music store gossip. He got a lot of his tubes off eBay, same place I get mine. 3/4 of the time my eBay buys turn out to be great values. However, I had to do quite a bit of studying up to learn what to look for. I bought buttloads of vintage tubes and have also tried different vintage speakers as well. Some tubes and particularly some vintage speakers that are off the radar so to speak sound amazingly good.

Lots of good answers here in this thread. There are often more "rights" in the varied answers to a question than one would believe at first.

peace, rhythm, and tone!

 

[EtherealWidow]

****. Looks like I have to rewrite my entire tube prescription and do a whole bunch of tests on my Express now. I'm not sure if I can handle 3 different gain stages.