JOEY B.
Well-known member
Try that C90 in the combo. You might just like it. 
How about those pics?
How about those pics?
Thiele info & Advice Needed!!
- Thread starter Monsta-Tone
- Start date
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You should put the EV back in the Thiele and run a C90 in your combo. That should be a great combination. I know the EV sounds great in the Thiele with my Mark IV. In the combo the EV is kind of too clean. A C90 might have a little more flavor in the open back combo cabinet mounting. Between the two you should have a great complete sound without needing a 4x12. I just like the Traditional 4x12 now. I used to use my 1960AX cab for some added flavor to the EV's. I still love that sound though.
JOEY B.
Well-known member
Russ said:
In the MkIVA combo that I had, I also thought the EV sounded a bit odd (lead channel) with the open back setup. It sounded GREAT in the thiele. For some reason, my MkIIC+ combo sounds very good with its EV open back setup. Apples to oranges, I guess. The EV thiele is a nice complement to any 1x12 compact Boogie combo IMHO. 8)
http://www.webervst.com/sptalk.html
There is some really great info on speakers & enclosures on this site. Ted Weber has a phenomenal range of knowledge when it comes to Vintage amps & speakers. The guys at the Fender Forum think he is a god.
Here is a question that somebody asked that might explain the EV not sounding as good in an open cab:
From: Chris Eades
Why is it that some speakers sound great in a closed back or sealed cabinet, but sound terrible in an open back cabinet, and why is the opposite true with other speakers?
Chris, excellent question. When a person designs a speaker, one of the considerations is how much the cone will move and the subsequent loudness for a given amount of power driving it. If the designer uses a loose spider and fairly flexible surround on the cone, the voice coil will have an easier time moving the cone and the speaker will be loud with a small amount of power. The problem with a loose spider and surround is that as the power is increased, it takes the cone to its mechanical limit of movement and it gets harsh. This is an underdamped system and can also sound ringy. If you put this speaker in a sealed or closed back cabinet, the air that is trapped in the cabinet acts as a spring or big balloon that the back of the cone pushes against. This air mass helps control the movement of the cone and also affects the damping of the system, making the speaker sound more in control. A designer who uses a big magnet, tight surround and tight spider is designing for a low system Q, good damping, and good transient response. In other words, when you hit it with a sharp attack note, it responds and then stops very quickly rather than ringing on and on. This speaker would work well in an open back. However, in a sealed or closed back, the air mass spring we discussed earlier would add to the damping, potentially causing the speaker to be overdamped, compressed, and lifeless. It's a difficult design task to design a speaker that is a good compromise for all shapes, sizes and types of cabinets.
There is some really great info on speakers & enclosures on this site. Ted Weber has a phenomenal range of knowledge when it comes to Vintage amps & speakers. The guys at the Fender Forum think he is a god.
Here is a question that somebody asked that might explain the EV not sounding as good in an open cab:
From: Chris Eades
Why is it that some speakers sound great in a closed back or sealed cabinet, but sound terrible in an open back cabinet, and why is the opposite true with other speakers?
Chris, excellent question. When a person designs a speaker, one of the considerations is how much the cone will move and the subsequent loudness for a given amount of power driving it. If the designer uses a loose spider and fairly flexible surround on the cone, the voice coil will have an easier time moving the cone and the speaker will be loud with a small amount of power. The problem with a loose spider and surround is that as the power is increased, it takes the cone to its mechanical limit of movement and it gets harsh. This is an underdamped system and can also sound ringy. If you put this speaker in a sealed or closed back cabinet, the air that is trapped in the cabinet acts as a spring or big balloon that the back of the cone pushes against. This air mass helps control the movement of the cone and also affects the damping of the system, making the speaker sound more in control. A designer who uses a big magnet, tight surround and tight spider is designing for a low system Q, good damping, and good transient response. In other words, when you hit it with a sharp attack note, it responds and then stops very quickly rather than ringing on and on. This speaker would work well in an open back. However, in a sealed or closed back, the air mass spring we discussed earlier would add to the damping, potentially causing the speaker to be overdamped, compressed, and lifeless. It's a difficult design task to design a speaker that is a good compromise for all shapes, sizes and types of cabinets.
JOEY B.
Well-known member
I can see his point, but even though the thiele is a closed back, it is not sealed. The porting will allow the cone to breathe.
He talks about this a little bit lower on the page. The port is designed to have a resonant frequency that will equal the point in frequency where the output is drastically cut. So that the point where the speaker starts to drastically loose low frequency response is where the port frequency is. I can see where this would allow you to get much more output of lower frequencies than an unported cab would.
There is some really great info on that page. The gray background messes with my eyes though.
There is some really great info on that page. The gray background messes with my eyes though.
:lol: :lol: Now that I read my last post, all I can think of is, "Clearly you can see that I cannot drink from the glass in front of me!"
JOEY B.
Well-known member
Ahh yes, the old resonant frequency trick. This would explain the MkIV differences, but not the MkIV vs. MkII oddity. Have you seen these cabs lately? :lol:
:lol: They look so much better without all those pesky knobs. :lol:
I loved my Mark IV, but hated R2 and had no place where I could unleash it. I always found myself using it with 6V6's.
The DC-3 is perfect for the stuff that we will be doing and the places we will be playing. If I need more volume, I can either mic it or get really loud and use the DC-10.
Thanks again Joey,
Now that everything is up & running, I couldn't be more happy with my amp.
I also was able to fix the Vintage 30. Apparently the dust cover had come partially loose from the cone when my 2 year old son decided to put his finger in it.
I removed it with a heat gun and re-glued it with some tolex glue, which is a very flexible contact cement. Good as new now, but nicely broken in.
lesterpaul
Well-known member
Joey..those red lights are fired up on those monsta amps...me feel hypnotized...me must fire up my boogie...now!! :twisted: (...droool....)
JOEY B.
Well-known member
lesterpaul said:
Another thiele spokesman! I may have created a tone monster in my friend Mike(lesterpaul). Thank goodness he has not caught the C+ sickness yet. His wife would probably have my phone number blocked. :lol:
lesterpaul
Well-known member
well, funny you should mention that...if I sell the old marsh...the greenbacks...tax return coming...ARRRGGHHHH!!
yes, the thieles are just perfect with the mk iv b-back away and be amazed :shock:
yes, the thieles are just perfect with the mk iv b-back away and be amazed :shock:
How do you like this guitar? What is the neck contour like? I used to play Soloists, but after I got tendonitis, I had to move to fatter necks so I got an old Flying V. I've really been looking at these though.
lesterpaul
Well-known member
I have never played a soloist,but I used to own a flying v..a few...the pc-1 has some weight/mass-if you closed your eyes and picked it up ,it would feel more like a les paul custom-I like the compound radius neck-the action is very low close to the nut...barre chords are sooo easy...not sure about the fender neck comparison I am about to make, but maybe a c style neck??whichever one is known for super easy chording(I had a cbs strat with this style neck..not sure.it suffered when you got into the upper register for the fast lead stuff..)this is where compound radius shines-hit 12 fret and up,and the radius allows for low action/fast neck as well..the neck is a hand full-from what I have read on jackson forum,it is fatter than the typical soloist-I like it..it fills out your palm..big frets-mine has the older headstock-i dig the new headstocks(strat style)..radius should be the same-i would not consider it a typical shred neck-more of an all arounder-it is like a paul in super strat clothing
-i like the sustainers..cool if you like to dial in some delay and wank on the floyd
-not a big fan of the bridge pup,but it is voiced for a mid scoop style set up-allows you to dial in a lot of gain-typical ceramic pup..the key is the gain -works well with my mk iv,but i am thinking about dropping aan alnico in it
beautiful finish!!I went with rootbeer(it blends with the "brown back")
-the resale looks to be a little low on these guys right now..should be able to snag a good deal on a used one-bought mine brand new,but I am a lefty..I cant be too choosy decent case,but little in terms of paperwork/care of instrument/general info...stuff you usually get with a new purchase-they need to include info on sustainer system,for instance...somewhat of a mystery in the beginning..which switch controls which function
as always, play one first_I did not, but I dig it!
-i like the sustainers..cool if you like to dial in some delay and wank on the floyd
-not a big fan of the bridge pup,but it is voiced for a mid scoop style set up-allows you to dial in a lot of gain-typical ceramic pup..the key is the gain -works well with my mk iv,but i am thinking about dropping aan alnico in it
beautiful finish!!I went with rootbeer(it blends with the "brown back")
-the resale looks to be a little low on these guys right now..should be able to snag a good deal on a used one-bought mine brand new,but I am a lefty..I cant be too choosy
decent case,but little in terms of paperwork/care of instrument/general info...stuff you usually get with a new purchase-they need to include info on sustainer system,for instance...somewhat of a mystery in the beginning..which switch controls which functionas always, play one first_I did not, but I dig it!
Right on, thanks for the info.
I had a couple of Soloists, and an oddball Soloist with a tune-o-matic bridge and strings through the body.
The oddball one had a shorter (Les Paul) scale and fatter neck. It was a Japanese one, but it was some kind of anniversary model. One of the best guitars that I've ever owned.
I'll try one next time I go to the city.
I had a couple of Soloists, and an oddball Soloist with a tune-o-matic bridge and strings through the body.
The oddball one had a shorter (Les Paul) scale and fatter neck. It was a Japanese one, but it was some kind of anniversary model. One of the best guitars that I've ever owned.
I'll try one next time I go to the city.
lesterpaul
Well-known member
i forgot to mention...I tune down a half step all the time,but on the pc-1, I tune to standard...it feels like it is tuned down..it has that les paul scale feeling to it, but it is tuned to standard-it is a best of both worlds to me...some have called it a baseball bat, but I grew up playing lp customs,so this neck feels comfy to me
Andy, could you comment on the Thiele vs. the 3/4 back 1X12 as both a stand-alone cab and in conjunction with the combo speaker. I am interested in a Thiele cab to use with a non-Mesa EL84 equipped amp. IMO the EL84 just doesn’t have the full range of a 6L6 but the 3/4 back cab I use with this amp sounds way better with it as a stand alone speaker.
On another note I am curious on others thoughts on Thiele cabs regarding the following. When designing a cab for a speaker driver utilizing Thiele and Small parameters the cab is tuned to the driver based on its parameters and actual measurements. The Mesa Thiele cabs can be purchased (at least over the years) with more than one type and brand of driver. I have a hard time believing that the EV and the C-90 would have specs anywhere near each other or would have the same cab size and port size as each other for optimal performance. Is Mesa's Thiele cab actually a "tuned" cabinet per Thiele and Small parameters or is really just a bass reflex cab designed to optimize the low end of most any driver? Are the Mesa cabs ported different depending on which speaker driver it comes with? Maybe someone who owns one of each can comment.
On another note I am curious on others thoughts on Thiele cabs regarding the following. When designing a cab for a speaker driver utilizing Thiele and Small parameters the cab is tuned to the driver based on its parameters and actual measurements. The Mesa Thiele cabs can be purchased (at least over the years) with more than one type and brand of driver. I have a hard time believing that the EV and the C-90 would have specs anywhere near each other or would have the same cab size and port size as each other for optimal performance. Is Mesa's Thiele cab actually a "tuned" cabinet per Thiele and Small parameters or is really just a bass reflex cab designed to optimize the low end of most any driver? Are the Mesa cabs ported different depending on which speaker driver it comes with? Maybe someone who owns one of each can comment.
I don't think Mesa spends the time to change their Thiele per speaker as ordered. I haven't seen their cabinets vary. The cabinet remains the same regardless of what they throw in it. I don't know what speaker they tuned it for. I am assuming that they used the air volume dimensions provided by EV. I have a KK audio cabinet that is ported and volumed as a Thiele. It also has a cover for the port and a rear access panel that you can open to about 3/4 back. When the port is sealed and the door is open it acts much like a 3/4 back. It is loaded with an EVM-12L. I actually like it sealed or ported much better than 3/4. I usually play it ported. I like to use it with the combo speaker from my Mark IV. I recently migrated my chassis back into my head shell though due to weight. The EVM-12L made the combo a boat anchor. The combination of the combo and the Thiele are awesome.
phyrexia
Well-known member
The Boogie one is smaller so it matches the width of the compact 1x12 combo.
The Boogie design hasn't changed since the EV stopped being the normal speaker. It's the same internally as the old ones.
The Boogie design hasn't changed since the EV stopped being the normal speaker. It's the same internally as the old ones.
