The Roadster Blues...

[Apoc]

Hey Everyone,

I've had my Roadster 2x12 combo for a few years now and have found myself spending almost all of my time tweaking it (turning knobs - not doing mods) than playing guitar.

I decided to get a full re-tube done and went for the JJ Bob's Fav. Front End and Power Section with KT66 and KT88 power tubes. The clean channel has never sounded better, but the swap de-brutalized my channel 4 modern mode. Palm mutes used to feel like I was firing off a shotgun, and now they're kinda soft and "thud, thud" instead of "pow, pow". I suppose that my mistake was to try to get the amp to become something that it wasn't designed to be: more harmonically rich and smooth... This did make the amp 3D sounding with much less high-end fizzyness and much improved articulation, but none-the-less I just can't seem to bond with this amp.

I guess I'm just venting because the obvious solution is to sell the darn thing and look at something else. Anybody else been down this road? Did you regret selling your Roadster?

Any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Big_Al]

I believe I know what you are going through. I have rolled a few preamp tubes trying to alter some of the characteristics of the amp but all I have done is build a small stock of 12AX7s. I also spent more time searching the forum, rolling tubes, tweaking and trying boost pedals- not playing as much as I should. I did achieve some light changes but at the end of the day (or year in my case) I ended up buying a different amp.
If you can swing it, I would hold onto the Roadster. I am keeping my in hopes I will come back to it later.

 

[Apoc]

I believe I know what you are going through. I have rolled a few preamp tubes trying to alter some of the characteristics of the amp but all I have done is build a small stock of 12AX7s. I also spent more time searching the forum, rolling tubes, tweaking and trying boost pedals- not playing as much as I should. I did achieve some light changes but at the end of the day (or year in my case) I ended up buying a different amp.
If you can swing it, I would hold onto the Roadster. I am keeping my in hopes I will come back to it later.

Thanks for the feedback Big_Al. I suppose I could buy another amp and run it through the speakers of my Roadster combo; I do have the cables necessary for this. That would also allow me to compare the two. Sometimes one's just chasing the tone inside one's head and not realizing that what they already have is closer to it than what they may be looking to replace it with…

Has anyone else replaced their Roadster? Regrets?

 

[ryjan]

What kind of sound are you looking for? The Roadster is an extremely versatile amp but maybe there's a better amp for what you're trying to accomplish.

 

[Chester]

Not replaced my Roadster ... but put it on the reserves bench whilst my mood takes me to another head ... and then back again. I am lucky enough to keep 4 heads, indluge my mood swings, nail the sounds in my head, and learn more about the amps and my own limitations

I went from having one amp to a few, just so I would not keep offloading great amps and regretting it. If you can swing it, keep the Roadster and add another. If your journey is anything like my own, you may find the Roadster will unlock more surprises after your experience with something else

Your re-tube comments are making me want to try KTs in the power section to achieve exactly the 3D softer response you now have - I live on the edge of break-up most of the time, so your spec sounds like a worthwhile experiment ... here we go again :mrgreen: :idea: :idea: :idea:

 

[Apoc]

What kind of sound are you looking for? The Roadster is an extremely versatile amp but maybe there's a better amp for what you're trying to accomplish.

To be perfectly honest, I don't know! All I do know is that I like half of what I'm hearing and hate the other half.

Like (Modern Mode): the low-mid and bass emphasis when bending the low "E" string when in Drop-D, the punchiness, the high-end breathing/hazy sound that recto's have when you play an open chord (especially a D Chord), and the in-your-faceness of the amp in general.

Dislike (Modern Mode): the shhhhhhhhhhh sandy/white-noise when you play a chord that includes more than 1 of the high strings, the almost sterile overall sound of the distortion, the way that the amp just sounds like it's overloaded with frequencies so everything comes out as a washy mush.

I actually spent 2-3 hours today moving the new tubes around and substituting back and forth. Turns out that overall I actually prefer the Mesa branded preamp and power tubes for distortion, even though they're worn. They JJ preamp tubes sound best for cleans and lower-gain stuff, but the "kill" channel suffers for it. ; )

In general, I find myself turning up the mids on all channels. For the cleans, I have to have the amp in Tweed mode (I find the Clean and Fat modes are way too flat sounding to me) with the mids 3/4 up in order to get the body and sparkle that I'm after. And even then, it's only ALMOST there. I LOVE the Stiletto clean channel and the Carvin Legacy clean channel. Those, in my opinion, are the best cleans I've ever played, and to me they are just plain "magical". I actually feel inspired to play through those amps on clean, but find myself tweaking the hell out of my Roadster to try to get the cleans close to where I'd consider them in the same league... I guess I need to get a Stiletto for my cleans...

It's funny: I actually bought and then returned a Stiletto Ace right before I picked up the Roadster. I was floored by the Fluid Drive and Fat clean modes on that amp in the store, loved it at home, then after about a week or so, the drive channel started to sound brittle and harsh to my ears. So I returned it. I recently played it at a store and LOVED all the drive modes and was sold on the idea of selling the Roadster to fund a Stiletto. I came back a few days later and played the exact same Stiletto sitting in the same spot using the same guitar, and again it sounded brittle and harsh! WTF?! I may just be going crazy.

I figured I'd try a re-tubing for my Roadster just to be sure and I've learned an expensive lesson: don't put tubes into your amp that are designed to emphasize frequencies that you're amp isn't built/designed to emphasize, unless you want a mish-mash of both sounds that doesn't do either voicing very well. But heck, everyone'e mileage will vary; I'm sure some people would like what I've got now.

Anyhow, I've put all the Mesa tubes back into the Roadster and it just sounds more "right" albeit dull and worn-out a little. I'm debating putting in a fresh set of Mesa 6L6's as a last resort before I'm dead-set on getting rid of this amp.

 

[screamingdaisy]

Tone is pretty subjective and what you're after will be different from what I'm after.

Still, years ago I sold my first Recto. I then spent a small fortune on amps, pedals, pickups, etc in an effort to find the sound I was after, only to find it in another Recto. That amp produces the sound I hear in my head.

That said, sometime I get tired of the Recto sound, at which time I favour a Mark.

I've found it's pretty easy to over-analyze your sound when you frequently play by yourself. It's easy to put small details that don't really matter under the microscope when all you hear is your guitar in isolation. Playing with a band will give you a different perspective on the sound of your amp... details that bothered you will be crushed under the weight of the drums and bass and you'll learn to appreciate your guitar in the narrow band of midrange that's left over.

 

[Apoc]

Tone is pretty subjective and what you're after will be different from what I'm after.

Still, years ago I sold my first Recto. I then spent a small fortune on amps, pedals, pickups, etc in an effort to find the sound I was after, only to find it in another Recto. That amp produces the sound I hear in my head.

That said, sometime I get tired of the Recto sound, at which time I favour a Mark.

I've found it's pretty easy to over-analyze your sound when you frequently play by yourself. It's easy to put small details that don't really matter under the microscope when all you hear is your guitar in isolation. Playing with a band will give you a different perspective on the sound of your amp... details that bothered you will be crushed under the weight of the drums and bass and you'll learn to appreciate your guitar in the narrow band of midrange that's left over.

Interesting perspective. Now, how do I get to this sort of awareness without playing in a band? Perhaps some home recording and mixing…

I find the biggest issue I have with the amp is that I just don't find it inspiring to play, most of the time. That may simply be my lack of chops as I like the way the amp sounds when other people play it… But the catch 22 is that I feel compelled to fiddle with the knobs when I hear things I don't like, but that distracts me from playing and getting my chops up to snuff, which makes me hate what I hear even more, which leads me to fiddle with knobs. Clearly, I need to buckle down, pick a few songs I like and start wood-shedding.

I think I'll end up retuning with Mesa tubes after all and work on my playing.

Thanks for the advice!

Any other feedback from anyone reading is welcome!

 

[screamingdaisy]

Do you get to use your Roadster loud? Or do you need to limit its volume?

 

[YellowJacket]

Oh gosh, guitar tone!
1) Face the fact that you may not like the thing. You may not. I know what it is like to fight with a Recto, I've been there. Accept that you may have to try something else.

2) The problem might be somewhere else in your signal chain. So, let's go through the short list here.

Before you start, remove anything between the guitar and the amp. Patch cable only. Also bypass the FX loop.

i. Guitars. What guitars do you have and what's in them? In my experience very clear sounding guitars work best with Mesa amps. Furthermore, pickups with a lot of midrange clarity, string separation, and even / balanced highs work best with Mesa amps.

If you spent $2,500 on your amp and $300 on your guitar, rethink the guitar.

If your guitar is good, rethink the pickups.
When shopping for new pickups, I was fortunate to acquire some Bare Knuckle Rebel Yells which I put into my Les Paul. The result is that I can now pour on the gain without things getting muddy or soupy, and I have this complex, open, and incredibly tight / percussive sound. Pickup choice depends on the guitar but I recommend Bare Knuckle pickups for Mesa since they help control / remove the mud factor. (Duncans are better for marshalls where more thickness and body is invariably needed)

Don't overlook electronics. Going to a higher value pot can really enhance the top end of the tone and add clarity.

ii. Buy high quality speakers leads and patch cable. $50 for each is acceptable, $10 for each is most likely not.

iii. Speakers. If you are running stock speakers, consider swapping out 1 v30 for a mesa mc90. This will smooth out the top end further as well as enhancing the clean and lead tones.

iv. Everyone who has chatted about Roadsters here suggests putting a Tung Sol 12ax7 in v1. Everything else is usually stock. Try it, no harm no foul.

Personally, I got so frustrated with my Recto Rev F that I bought an Electra Dyne and was about to sell it when a pile of guys here strongly urged me to reconsider. Well, I faced my wife's ire and held onto it and I enjoy it much more now that I have something else to play when I get tired of it. I bought used so that I wouldn't lose any money on the investment. Turns out that it was a good idea.

 

[Chester]

FWIW, I had similar issues with the Vintage / Modern modes until I turned down the gain .. significantly. I also ride my guitar vol pot a lot. I now set gain to the point of breakup with guitar vol around 5 and get a fat, chewy, expressive growl around 7 / 8. I never turn the guitar to 10, which sets up the brittle harshness I hate. No mud, bass flub or stiff hiss at the other end of the spectrum

To get a bigger midrange bump with deeper growl, I step on a BB+ or a Fulldrive 2 - heaven. The gain is usually set between 9 -12 o'clock on either pedal. Various PRS guitars with a variety of PUP's / single coils give me everything I need through the Roadster

Lesson learned for me - turn the gain down, and output vol up to maintain a lively, dynamic response. Use that base to colour your sound with guitar vol / pedals to taste. Tried the Tung Sol in V1 which I liked 'till it blew - now got a Mullard Reissue which is slightly lower gain and gives me a softer, more open distortion from which to build

Took me months of tweaking with this and my other heads to undertsand how best to use the Roadster for my needs and ears - and I'm still learning ..

 

[domct203]

FWIW, I had similar issues with the Vintage / Modern modes until I turned down the gain .. significantly...............

Lesson learned for me - turn the gain down, and output vol up to maintain a lively, dynamic response. ..

+10000. IMO anything over 1:00 turns the amp into a mushy beehive, and kills any dynamics. I use a TS-9 as a boost, with my Modern gain around 12:00-12:30 for rhythms, and Vintage around 12:30-1:00 for leads.

These settings are at band volumes, at bedroom levels there would not be any punch or sustain.

Are you playing at the volumes the amp was designed for?

Dom

 

[Apoc]

Do you get to use your Roadster loud? Or do you need to limit its volume?

How do I always for get about this all-important factor?! I'm a bedroom warrior, in a condo. I'm fortunate enough to be able to turn it up to a volume that requires me to yell over top of it to be heard (in the rare event that someone else is in the room), but that's a high as it goes, ever. It's usually below that...

 

[Apoc]

Oh gosh, guitar tone!
1) Face the fact that you may not like the thing. You may not. I know what it is like to fight with a Recto, I've been there. Accept that you may have to try something else.

2) The problem might be somewhere else in your signal chain. So, let's go through the short list here.

Before you start, remove anything between the guitar and the amp. Patch cable only. Also bypass the FX loop.

i. Guitars. What guitars do you have and what's in them? In my experience very clear sounding guitars work best with Mesa amps. Furthermore, pickups with a lot of midrange clarity, string separation, and even / balanced highs work best with Mesa amps.

If you spent $2,500 on your amp and $300 on your guitar, rethink the guitar.

If your guitar is good, rethink the pickups.
When shopping for new pickups, I was fortunate to acquire some Bare Knuckle Rebel Yells which I put into my Les Paul. The result is that I can now pour on the gain without things getting muddy or soupy, and I have this complex, open, and incredibly tight / percussive sound. Pickup choice depends on the guitar but I recommend Bare Knuckle pickups for Mesa since they help control / remove the mud factor. (Duncans are better for marshalls where more thickness and body is invariably needed)

Don't overlook electronics. Going to a higher value pot can really enhance the top end of the tone and add clarity.

ii. Buy high quality speakers leads and patch cable. $50 for each is acceptable, $10 for each is most likely not.

iii. Speakers. If you are running stock speakers, consider swapping out 1 v30 for a mesa mc90. This will smooth out the top end further as well as enhancing the clean and lead tones.

iv. Everyone who has chatted about Roadsters here suggests putting a Tung Sol 12ax7 in v1. Everything else is usually stock. Try it, no harm no foul.

Personally, I got so frustrated with my Recto Rev F that I bought an Electra Dyne and was about to sell it when a pile of guys here strongly urged me to reconsider. Well, I faced my wife's ire and held onto it and I enjoy it much more now that I have something else to play when I get tired of it. I bought used so that I wouldn't lose any money on the investment. Turns out that it was a good idea.

1) I've been going back and forth between accepting and rejecting that notion.
2) Signal chain that I always use:

10-46 Elixer Nanoweb strings -> Peavey Wolfgang (standard) with upgraded brass block from FUTone -> George L thin cable -> Mesa Roadster 2x12 combo. I use/own no effects, but I do use the master volume (effects loop thus on) to balance out all 4 channels.

I've resorted to the coated strings because I burn through/corrode all non-coated strings I've tried in a matter of minutes. I do realize that these strings may be limiting my upper-end harmonics and beefiness. I've found the EB Cobalts to be the best sounding strings but again, I just burn through them so quickly, and they prevent me from using the D-Tuna on my E string because they won't tune properly with the D-Tuna (The EB forum admins admitted this is inherent in those strings).

Recently I have been thinking that my pickups may be de-magnetizing/getting weaker, but it could just be my mind trying to re-allocate blame for the tone I'm not getting. However, the pot-upgrade suggestion sounds appealing. I've also wanted to do a coil-tap on the Wolfgang as well as a floyd bridge replacement as the chrome is coming off and the saddles are really worn from the screws.

In terms of speaker leads, I have no idea how to do any of that tech stuff and I don't have a soldering iron. Furthermore, I'm thinking/hoping that the issue is lies elsewhere as I suspect that most people who are pleased with their tone have not gone to such lengths to get there. Actually, I'm thinking that the combo speaker enclosure itself may be too congested sound-wise. I've played a Roadster through a Mesa 1x12 and it sounded much deeper…

I think I'll try the Tung Sol 12AX7 in V1 - thanks!

I WISH I had bought the Roadster used… Now that I may be selling it, I'm going to take quite the loss.

Thanks for your feedback!

 

[Apoc]

FWIW, I had similar issues with the Vintage / Modern modes until I turned down the gain .. significantly. I also ride my guitar vol pot a lot. I now set gain to the point of breakup with guitar vol around 5 and get a fat, chewy, expressive growl around 7 / 8. I never turn the guitar to 10, which sets up the brittle harshness I hate. No mud, bass flub or stiff hiss at the other end of the spectrum

To get a bigger midrange bump with deeper growl, I step on a BB+ or a Fulldrive 2 - heaven. The gain is usually set between 9 -12 o'clock on either pedal. Various PRS guitars with a variety of PUP's / single coils give me everything I need through the Roadster

Lesson learned for me - turn the gain down, and output vol up to maintain a lively, dynamic response. Use that base to colour your sound with guitar vol / pedals to taste. Tried the Tung Sol in V1 which I liked 'till it blew - now got a Mullard Reissue which is slightly lower gain and gives me a softer, more open distortion from which to build

Took me months of tweaking with this and my other heads to undertsand how best to use the Roadster for my needs and ears - and I'm still learning ..

Due to the low levels at which I play, if I turn down the gain below a certain point the sound loses it's thump and it's no longer satisfying for metal. I'll try rolling back the guitar volume knob per your suggestion and see how it goes.

I simply refuse to boost a high-gain head, and even if I did want to try it I don't own any pedals and don't want to invest in any - I'd much rather get an amp to do what I want it to without having to introduce more elements into my signal chain.

I too have been tweaking for months, and my playing has suffered because of it. I'm tired of tweaking and I miss playing. I'm not prepared to invest another several months of my ever limited spare time in fiddling with knobs. I just want to plug in, be inspired, and play.

I've tried out an EVH 50 Watt head… was a little bit less lively sounding than all the Mesa's I've played, but it was fun as hell! Maybe that's my next amp. It also sounded really, really good at low volumes compared to anything else I've tried...

 

[Apoc]

FWIW, I had similar issues with the Vintage / Modern modes until I turned down the gain .. significantly...............

Lesson learned for me - turn the gain down, and output vol up to maintain a lively, dynamic response. ..

+10000. IMO anything over 1:00 turns the amp into a mushy beehive, and kills any dynamics. I use a TS-9 as a boost, with my Modern gain around 12:00-12:30 for rhythms, and Vintage around 12:30-1:00 for leads.

These settings are at band volumes, at bedroom levels there would not be any punch or sustain.

Are you playing at the volumes the amp was designed for?

Dom

Touche; no, no I am not. I'm a fool for buying a 100 Watt with an attached 2x12 for the low levels to which I'm limited. I have taken it to a friend's place a few times and cranked it there and it was like firing off thunder-bolts. At home, I tweak endlessly. I think I'm like a hamster in a wheel...

I'll try out the suggestions from the earlier posters, but I have a feeling that I'm going to end up selling it and getting something bedroom friendly.

 

[screamingdaisy]

Do you get to use your Roadster loud? Or do you need to limit its volume?

How do I always for get about this all-important factor?! I'm a bedroom warrior, in a condo. I'm fortunate enough to be able to turn it up to a volume that requires me to yell over top of it to be heard (in the rare event that someone else is in the room), but that's a high as it goes, ever. It's usually below that...

Try using 50w with the tube rectifiers and variac mode. Give it a bit until you get a feel for it and avoid A/Bing it against full power modes (full power will be louder and when doing comparisons the mind perceives louder as better).

Additionally, I run my bridge pickup with the tone pot dialled down to 7 or so. It takes off some of the top end sizzle and makes things sound more solid.

Lastly, try fiddling with just the amps treble knob for a bit. It controls the overall tonality of the amp, and sometimes small changes in the 11:00 to 1:30 range is enough to reshape the midrange response.

 

[YellowJacket]

Aww dude, a 100watt amp for bedroom jamming in a condo!? :shock: :lol: Good luck with this, but you've got quite the beast in that there roadster.


Seriously, if you decide to swap for a different head, look into a Mini Recto with a Matching 1 x 12 or even a Mark V (Which will turn down to 10watts if necessary) Also, there's the Vox Nightrain, Orange Tiny Terror or Dark Terror, etc etc...
Swapping a used Roadster for another premium used head might be your best bet to retain your equity. I really think you should demo a Mark V, they sound great at low volumes and they're fantastically versatile, tight, and expressive amps. IMO, they get even heavier tones than the rectos and with all the options, you have an infinite number of tones on tap to sample at any time.

Wolfgangs are pretty intense guitars so perhaps you've got that end covered. I heard a guy who got a pretty good tone with a Wolfgang running through a Triple Rec. Maybe listen through a few of the BKP demos. They are definitely pickups with a lot of clarity which is a good match for any and all Mesas haha.

 

[Apoc]

Aww dude, a 100watt amp for bedroom jamming in a condo!? :shock: :lol: Good luck with this, but you've got quite the beast in that there roadster.

Seriously, if you decide to swap for a different head, look into a Mini Recto with a Matching 1 x 12 or even a Mark V (Which will turn down to 10watts if necessary) Also, there's the Vox Nightrain, Orange Tiny Terror or Dark Terror, etc etc...
Swapping a used Roadster for another premium used head might be your best bet to retain your equity. I really think you should demo a Mark V, they sound great at low volumes and they're fantastically versatile, tight, and expressive amps. IMO, they get even heavier tones than the rectos and with all the options, you have an infinite number of tones on tap to sample at any time.

Wolfgangs are pretty intense guitars so perhaps you've got that end covered. I heard a guy who got a pretty good tone with a Wolfgang running through a Triple Rec. Maybe listen through a few of the BKP demos. They are definitely pickups with a lot of clarity which is a good match for any and all Mesas haha.

Yeah, I gone 'n' done it real foolish… any and all mockery is well deserved! ; D

I've had a love/hate relationship demoing a Mark V several times. I've found the distortion to have this sandy quality to it, kind of like white noise but focused in the mid-range. Kind of like the Rectos have with the high-end (the Roadster being a little darker has less of it than the regular Rectos). I hear this in ALL demos of the Mark V, including Petrucci's. HOWEVER, I recently played it at a store where despite my near OCD nit-picky aversion to said fizz-factor, I really, really liked the distortion on channel 3. Someone had set the graphic EQ in a strange-looking pattern and it sounded great. I've also been able to dial in an astoundingly good clean sound. But, all-in-all my experiences with the Mark V have been 50% great and 50% terrible, and that's because I couldn't figure out how to EQ it properly myself. And that worries me: I'm already frustrated enough with all the knobs and tweaking on my Roadster, so going for a more complex amp would be a mistake, methinks. If I do end up selling the Roadster, it will be replaced with something simple i.e. a plug 'n' play amp.

I just got an email from Mesa and they've come out with a 25 Watt mini-RectoVerb. That may be up my alley...

 

[YellowJacket]

The 25 watt Rectoverb combo looks amazing and the trim is really attractive. The sound clips are also great and it is definitely a fantastic small format amp for people who don't require halfstacks.