The function of the master channel volume control on Recto

[bermuda_]

Hey guys!

After reading the Mesa Dual Rectifier 3 channel amp manual about the function I came across some interesting information, according to the manual, and I quote.

" The MASTER Control makes possible a wide range of sounds through its ability to use very low Gain sounds at high volumes and conversely, high Gain sounds at low volumes and everywhere between ".

I found this information to be true, Because I noticed myself that when I was playing my Recto on the 3 channel on modern mode, when I had set my gain on the channel to about 2 O'clock, with the master channel volume knob set to zero on the amp, I could hear a lot of gain coming though my speakers of my cabinet.

But as soon as I began to turn the master channel volume up higher on the amp, the high gain that was coming from quickly diminishes in power.

So I was just wondering guys how do I retain that high level of gain, at higher amp volume levels. :x

Thanks guys :mrgreen:

 

[mikey383]

Turn the gain knob up? :?

 

[bermuda_]

The gain on the amp is already up, the problem I'm having is when I turn the amp up higher on the amp, the gain decreases.

 

[mikey383]

I think that's just the nature of the beast.

When the master is down, you're getting straight preamp gain (and buzz) with no power from the power amp section and some negative feedback. Turn it up, and it increases the power to the power amp and decreases the negative feedback.

The only way to add gain (without mods) would be to turn the gain knob up more, add some treble (which will add gain), preamp tubes graded for higher gain (which won't add all that much gain), or boost it with a pedal in front.

 

[mikeweber74]

what is your channel volume set to? If you turn up the channel volume as you turn up the master volume it should add more saturation

 

[94Tremoverb]

I may be wrong, but I think what bermuda is saying is that he actually *likes* that odd sort of tone when the gain is all the way up and the master is all the way down, and there is a little signal leaking through - very saturated, fuzzy and buzzy -which is exactly what most of us don't like about trying to get a 'bedroom volume' sound out of our amps. As soon as you crack the volume open to the point some real signal level gets through, the sound suddenly becomes a lot fuller and seems to have a lot less gain.

If this is really the case, try turning down the bass and maybe the mids, and up the treble and presence when you get into the 'full tone' zone. If that doesn't help, you may really prefer the sound of a solid-state distortion device of some sort - that isn't meant to be insulting, it's purely personal taste and there's nothing wrong with wanting something different. Just because most players usually prefer the sound of a tube amp doesn't mean it's the only right choice if you're after a particular tone. I also like a lot of solid state distortions and overdrives. (Although I still prefer to put them through a tube amp.)

Remember, Dimebag Darrell purposely used all-solid-state amps because he prefered them. He could afford to use anything he wanted. (RIP)

 

[bermuda_]

That's exactly what I meant to say, :lol: I like the preamp distortion coming from the amp because of the high amount gain saturation that comes through the speakers.

But when I turn the volume up higher on the amp, I hate that sound, where the amp speakers sound as if a blanket has been put over them, you know that dark scooped type sound thats comes from the amp.

Is it normal to hear that type of tone as you crank the amps volume higher than zero, or is there something wrong with my amp.

 

[Soma]

Hi all, long time reader, first post

That's exactly what I meant to say, :lol: I like the preamp distortion coming from the amp because of the high amount gain saturation that comes through the speakers.

But when I turn the volume up higher on the amp, I hate that sound, where the amp speakers sound as if a blanket has been put over them, you know that dark scooped type sound thats comes from the amp.

Is it normal to hear that type of tone as you crank the amps volume higher than zero, or is there something wrong with my amp.

I get exactly the same thing with my Tremoverb. I dial in a nice bedroom level tone, like a nice tight saturated tone but still with a big roar, great for palm muting and big power chords. Then when I get a chance to crank the volume all of a sudden all the nice saturation, sizzle and chug disappear and the sound gets very boxy. A shame because I love this amp but just can't seem to dial in a tone that sounds good at higher volume levels.

Cheers.

 

[pgrudge]

I think it's normal. You need to tweak your settings after you've reached the desired playing volume. I even mic my cab up in another room and tweak my settings with headphones on, playing along to some prerecorded material. What i've found out is that the change directly on the speakers isn't as huge as it sounds in the room... Put all your tone controls at 12o'clock (including gain and master) and then cut what is too much. You'll reach a point where you want to add something, but write your settings down before you do that and start from there next time you're looking for a sound. The cool thing is that when you're happy and turn the master down, you'll probably still have a great sound, maybe just add a little gain...Don't ask me how that works.

I usually back off a little gain (from 1:30 to 12 oclock) when i raise the master for live playing, cause i feel like the speakers fill in the blanks in the sound when it's louder. I've got celestion greenbacks in my 4x12 and i really think the difference between low and high volume is smaller with those speakers, but it might be psychological instead of scientific...unless psychology is a science, but i guess then they'd have a way to fix me... :shock:

What kind of speakers do you use?

 

[bermuda_]

I've got celestion vintage 30 speakers in my Mesa Oversized 4x12 Recto Cabinet, so that probably would explain why my amp sounds so muddy when I crank the volume up higher on it.

So how do the celestion greenbacks speakers sound in your 4x12 cabinet, Do they also sound muddy when you crank the volume of the amp up louder?

 

[b0nkersx]

I've got celestion vintage 30 speakers in my Mesa Oversized 4x12 Recto Cabinet, so that probably would explain why my amp sounds so muddy when I crank the volume up higher on it.

So how do the celestion greenbacks speakers sound in your 4x12 cabinet, Do they also sound muddy when you crank the volume of the amp up louder?

That doesn't explain anything.. V30s are probably the most widely used guitar speaker. It's not the speakers.

You have to change your settings when you raise or lower volume, dude. Try cranking your mids and lowering your bass when you turn the volume up more.

 

[bermuda_]

Okay I'll try that, but where should I adjust the treble, presence, to, also I noticed that when I set my gain knob on the amp to about 12 o'clock, the amp sounded like it was slightly overdriven, is it normal to hear that type of gain coming from a high gain amp like this?

Also I contact Mesa's Boogie support service on the matter,and hear is what they had to say on the issue.

Is this issue also in channel Two? Channel Two and Three share the same gain stages, so if it happens on both channels it may be a 12AX7 tube issue. If this is only happening at higher volumes I would have to assume you have a weak power tube that has lost head room and is distorting the tone and causing it to "flub" out. I would recommend doing some basic tube troubleshooting to see if this resolves the issue. If it doesn't seem to be tube related we will more than likely need to have you contact your distributor to have the amp looked at by a Mesa tech.

Also after looking at a review of this amp on harmony central, hears what a reviewer had to say about the sound of the amp.

" I love this amp when its low cause you really get that saturated distortion when you palm mute... but once u turn it up loud you lose that "

This is exactly the problem I'm having with the amp.

 

[b0nkersx]

I don't really know how much gain you like (I get the feeling its a lot), but my amp has way more gain than I need, and I play some pretty heavy gainy stuff. In fact, I always turn the gain down as I turn the volume up. Post clips of your amp both quiet and loud, and maybe a youtube video with a tone that you like.

Also, 12 o'clock on modern mode shouldn't be "slightly overdriven". I don't really ever find the need to juice the gain past 1:00, ever. If you need way more gain than the amp can offer you, you should look into another amp, or even using a solid state distortion device as mentioned above.

 

[bermuda_]

I actually find that with my Recto, having the gain at 1 O'clock on the amp still isn't enough gain to satisfy my needs, so I have to adjust it to about 2, O'clock to get a decent amount gain from the amp.

Also I noticed that this amp has far to much bass on it, I even tried turning down the bass knob all the way down on the amp, but there was still a lot of bass present in the sound of the amp.

 

[b0nkersx]

Then you need to either play harder, get another amp, get a distortion pedal, get a booster, or a GEQ.

But in all seriousness, with how many posts you've made expressing how much you don't like rectos, just get another amp. I think a Peavey 6505/5150 or 6505+/5150II or a Krank or Engl or Randall will get you where you want to be.

 

[bermuda_]

Now, don't me wrong I do love the whole Mesa sound, but I just though that since the amp is of a high gain nature, I expected it to have a lot more gain to it, like surely high gains are supposed to have more gain than your typical solid state amp has right?

 

[mikey383]

Now, don't me wrong I do love the whole Mesa sound, but I just though that since the amp is of a high gain nature, I expected it to have a lot more gain to it, like surely high gains are supposed to have more gain than your typical solid state amp has right?

Apples and oranges. Solid state amps sound like they have more gain because of the way the gain is structured.

I have a buddy who plays nothing but solid state amps. The first thing he does when he plays my amp is crank the gain all the way up, then he bitches about how it doesn't have enough gain. I have enough gain with the knob at 1:30 oclock, and a slight boost from my effects unit.

One thing you may want to do is change the dynamics of your playing. If palm mutes aren't sounding like you think they should, make them sound like you want with your picking. When I first went to a Rectifier, I didn't think it had enough gain. I had to change the way I played in order to get it to sound like I wanted.

 

[b0nkersx]

Now, don't me wrong I do love the whole Mesa sound, but I just though that since the amp is of a high gain nature, I expected it to have a lot more gain to it, like surely high gains are supposed to have more gain than your typical solid state amp has right?

Not necessarily. Solid state amps, or distortion pedals for that matter, have way more gain (especially usable gain, because of how the gain structures are). But in my opinion, on any amp, there is really only so much gain that is really desirable. Too much gain turns mushy, buzzy, undefined, and doesn't sit in a band mix well. You lose a lot of tightness, articulation and gain a lot of noise and fizz. You would be surprised at how low most guitarists run their gain, regardless of how heavy it sounds. It really does have a lot to do with your dynamics. It's not all about "how much gain". I have a really heavy hand when I chug. I've heard other people play my amp and guitar and it sounds like weak **** as soon as it leaves my hands.

However, if you don't have a heavy touch now, a new tube amp will not help either. Gained out solid state devices generally cover up playing dynamics a lot, which makes the transition from solid state amps to tube amps difficult for a lot of people. There was a post on this board somewhere about a guy who thought his digitech death metal pedal was better than a recto, and I suspect it was for the same sort of reason.

 

[bermuda_]

yeah I know what you mean, I noticed to, it seems that all the power of your tone comes form your hands, would I be right in saying that, the harder you hit the strings with your pick, the more defined/tight your attack coming from the speakers will be.

Also I decided to boost the amp with a Maxon OD808 overdrive pedal and I can honestly say that the amps overall tone sounded so much better, the overall tone of the amp sounded tighter, from palm muting, to strumming, also in terms of how tight the amp, it sounded just as tight as a Peavey 5150.

So I was just wondering do all tube amp, need to be boosted in order to sound better?

Also believe it or not, I have watched, heard clips of people playing the Peavey 5150's on youtube, but have never played one before, so I was just wondering does the 5150 actually have more gain than the Recto does?

 

[mikey383]

I own both, and the 5150 has a sick amount of gain on tap. Much more than a Recto. But, with more gain, it also adds more noise. IMO, the 5150 has too much gain. I run the gain on mine around 6, which is right about as much gain as I run on my Recto. It's also voiced a bit higher in the mids. It's comparable to a Marshall in terms of mids.

A sick tone is to mix both amps. That's how I run my rig now, but if I have to chose one over the other, I'm going with my Dual. I just don't care for 5150s much by themselves.


Boosting a Recto seems to be the norm. I used to run mine unboosted and had no problems, but I changed out my tubes for a different tone and I found that using my effects processor for a slight boost helped recover the gain that I lost by swapping tubes and made it sound better. It's not much of a boost...I run the FX with the volume at 0, which is just a slightly hotter signal than if I don't use it. I have a homemade tubescreamer copy that I've been wanting to run, but I use clean quite a bit, so it's not practical for me to use it and try tap dancing on stage while singing backups.