The function of the master channel volume control on Recto

[94Tremoverb]

Yellowjackets don't *just* lower the power - and they don't even lower the volume until they reach their headroom limit, all the controls will have the same range up to then - they also change the tone a lot, restricting the bass and making the power section tighter and more compressed. This *might* be exactly what you want. They aren't very expensive, and at least you can keep them if you move onto a different amp. You only need two, even for a Dual Rectifier - you can run only one pair, leaving the other two sockets empty - although for a good impedance match you then need to connect the speaker to one of the 4-ohm jacks, even for an 8 or 16-ohm cab - I could explain why but it's more complicated than you need to know right now . Or you can get four, but I would probably try running two and two of the 6L6s together instead, which is almost like the Simul-Class power section in a Mark series. (And needs the normal impedance match.)

But still, before you think about that, work with the controls and the pedal you already have. If you're getting close but not quite there, then it may be worth looking into other stuff like this.

 

[bermuda_]

Right, for now I'll continue to experiment with Recto :lol:, but just as a rough estimate how loud should I turn the amp up, without having to worry about the of the rest of my family, possibly going deaf with the noise of the amp?

 

[94Tremoverb]

What you should find is that there's a noticeable 'step' in the Master Volume controls, around 8 o'clock, where the tone suddenly opens up. It won't change much from there to around 2 o'clock (at which point neighbors may be calling the cops, let alone family!), so there's not much point in going a lot higher - yet, anyway. The Output Level can still be used to bring the volume down further if it's still not quiet enough (start from about halfway), but it too will have a step below which it cuts off the real tone. Try to work with the amp in this 'real' zone, not below that point - you may think you have more gain below that, but really it's just signal leaking through where it's not supposed to, and if you base your sound around that it will be impossible to duplicate louder. If it's then not got enough gain (even maxed) and it's too loose, try the pedal. If you've done *all* that and it's still too loud or too loose-sounding, Yellowjackets may be the next step - possibly before trying EL34s, and certainly before an attenuator.

Don't rush it! There is a *lot* to learn, and it's quite a steep curve.

 

[b0nkersx]

bermuda likes metal, though. It kinda seems like EL84s will be a step in the wrong direction.

 

[94Tremoverb]

Maybe, but they'll also tighten the amp up and add more mid/top-end crunch. I'm sure you can play metal on EL84s - aren't there metal players who use(d) Caliber 50s? Or some sort of Peavey that uses 4xEL84. (I really don't know, I don't even like metal let alone play it... ) The tube type is less important than the overall design of the amp, especially in an amp where most of the tone and distortion comes from the preamp - it's more just fine-tuning the power stage dynamics.

I tried Yellowjackets for a while in a DC-5 when I was finding it a bit too big-sounding for small gigs, and it sounded more like what (I think) is needed here - tighter, flatter, more compressed and focused, and more like the low-volume sound. By the way, they do not make your amp sound like a Vox or run it in Class A... they make it sound like itself with EL84 coloring and run it in cathode-biased Class AB.

In some ways they do the same sort of thing to the power stage that a TS-type overdrive set low will do to the preamp. (Not the same, but in the same sort of direction.)

 

[bermuda_]

Yeah, I noticed that to, that when you turn the amp channel master volume up to 8 o'clock on the amp, the amp suddenly becomes a lot louder, I also noticed that myself to that when you crank the amp a past this volume, the tone of the amp doesn't change, only the loudness of the amp does. but having said that, if the tone of the amp doesn't change, when the amp is turned up louder, then why do most people, who have tube amps, recommend that you should crank them?
:

 

[94Tremoverb]

There's a lot of myth about it - some of it is due to the well known psycho-acoustic effect that a loud sound always sounds 'better' tonally than a quiet one, even if the two sounds are actually identical but at different volumes.

With a lot of amps the tone does change more as you turn them up, and if you're looking for the sound of power stage overdrive or compression there's no other way. Even the Rectifier will change when it does finally go into power-stage overdrive - but then you'll need an attenuator if you actually want to use it like that anywhere outside a soundproofed studio or a major gig. You can't get away with that kind of volume even at club gigs usually now. But what you will hear a lot is that "a small amp cranked up always sounds better than a big amp turned down", and this is just nonsense - it totally depends on what kind of sound you want. I've been right through the whole cycle of big amps to small amps, to medium amps and finally back to big amps, and the tone I get now at *any* volume is better than what I could get at anything other than low volume with the smaller amps. But then I don't like that overly-compressed, all-midrange blues rock sound which the small amp fans love so much, and is all they do when they're turned right up. If you want more flexibility and a bigger sound it's much easier to get that with a big amp turned down - just not *quite* as far as you may be wanting . You do need at least *some* volume to make the amp and the speakers work well.

 

[bermuda_]

Ah I see what you mean, so in other words what your saying is, in order to get a good sound coming from the amp, you need to drive the speakers hard.

Also I was just wondering do the YellowJackets function the same way an attenuator would, on an amp?

 

[94Tremoverb]

You don't need to drive the speakers 'hard', just enough. (Same as for the amp.) A few watts is plenty for most speakers, even high-power ones.

Yellowjackets are completely different from an attenuator. Both reduce the final maximum volume of the amp but they do it in opposite ways.

An attenuator (at least if it's a good one) simply acts as a volume control between the speakers and the amp, so it will reduce the volume at any amp setting. This does mean that you can get the power stage distortion volume lower, but equally you can reduce the volume of non-power-stage-distortion sounds too. So if you get the tone you want just above that 'step' in the MV, but it's still too loud for night-time practice, you can turn it down further with an attenuator *without* necessarily cranking the amp up further.

Yellowjackets make almost no difference in the volume until the amp is turned up a long way. That step in the MV will be at the same volume, and you still won't be able to get power-stage distortion at low volume. What does happen is that the maximum power is reduced, so the final volume when you do get to power stage distortion is lower - but only by a few dB. In volume terms, they aren't very useful if you're trying to play really quietly. But what they do is to give the amp more of the character of a lower-powered amp, more like about 15-20W (with one pair of them). That's still LOUD. And sounds different - less (and tighter) bass, more compressed dynamics, more crunch in the mids and top end.

I would use an attenuator to fix a volume problem and Yellowjackets to fix a tone problem, not so much the other way round.

Forget what you remember about the volume of your '30W' solid-state Marshall by the way! It may have been 30W in actual power output, but with a fairly small weak speaker and next to no dynamic response, it would not sound anything like the volume of a good 15W tube amp through a high-efficiency cab.

 

[b0nkersx]

I'm not trying to sound like a cork sniffer here (this is meant to be purely informative), but the effect of loud sounding better isn't psychological.

There's something called the Equal-loudness contour that actually changes the way your ears hear things at louder volumes. You actually hear a lower range of frequencies at high volumes because of the way your eardrums "compress" when you hear things that loud.

 

[bermuda_]

Right now I understand the diference between the two.

Also after looking at many review's on the net about attenuators, the Weber Mass, good very good feedback form most people, with the exception of one review from harmony central, so I was just wondering does the Weber Mass function like it's suppose to as an attenuator and if so would be just as good as the THD Hotplate, in terms of sound and quality?

 

[94Tremoverb]

Simply: different amps work better with some attenuators than others, and different attenuators work better with some amps than others, and they all respond differently depending on how you use the amp. The more you're cranking it into power stage overdrive, the more sensitive the choice becomes. If you're using it to reduce the volume of a preamp distortion sound without power stage overdrive, not so much.

Most have different combinations of level steps, impedance settings, and tone switches to help compensate for very low volumes. All of them affect the tone more the further they are turned down. The ones that claim to mimic some part of how a real speaker works don't inherently sound any better than the ones that don't.

It's really difficult to offer any advice, other than to try one and see how it works for you and your personal tone preferences. Both the Weber and the THD have a good reputation, but there are also others. It may be best to buy used so you can re-sell it for no loss if you don't like it, or see if you can try one before putting down the cash.

 

[bermuda_]

Right I see what you mean, also I forgot yo tell you that, I took into consideration about what you about learning to be more dynamic when playing the Recto. so with that being said, I decided to play the Recto and shortly after messing around with the Recto for a bit. I finally realized that how much gain comes from the amp, all depends on how hard you attack the strings on guitar. I'e when I strummed a power chord lightly on the guitar, I discovered that the attack did actually have gain to it, but the attack didn't sound very aggressive through the speakers, so then I decided to strum the same power chord I had just previously played, but with a bit more force behind the attack and after strumming the power chord on the guitar for the second time, I noticed that the attack of the power chord, still had gain to it, but the attack of the power chord sounded a lot more aggressive through the speakers of the amp.

Also for home playing. I have found that when I cranked the master volume on the amp up to 9 o'clock, it really allowed the speakers of the cabinet open, up in terms of the sound it produces, also I now understand that getting a good sound of the Recto, can actually be quite a difficult task for my most people including myself, but I take it that the reason for this is simply, because of how sensitive the Eq settings on the amp are, also I think this is worth mentioning. The pickup I'm using in the bridge of my guitar is a duncan designed active pickups, but the height of pickup is furthest away from the string, but I can't just the height of the pickup, because both screws are worn out on the pickup, so I was just wondering would this also cause a weak amount of gain to come through the amps signal?

 

[94Tremoverb]

You got it . You're over the first step, now you just need to refine your settings and playing to get where you want. Pretty good going for a week! Just to warn you, the rest of it might take a lot longer ;-).

You will now know exactly why us older players say that high-gain solid-state amps and modelers mask your playing and actually inhibit your learning, because they respond with nearly the same sound no matter how you play, and while that does make it 'easy' to play in the beginning, in the end they aren't rewarding.

A lot of vintage-amp people will say that even the Recto is not a 'responsive' amp and masks the player, but I don't think this is true at all - it's just an amp that needs as much care and learning how to use and set as it does in the playing. I honestly think it's one of the most responsive amps of all once you do understand it.

Have fun!


Yes, the low height of the pickups is probably not ideal, although it's maybe not the most critical factor. If you can't adjust the screws from above, next time you restring the guitar, take the pickups out and use a pair of pliers to carefully turn the bottom ends of the screws from underneath, having measured how much you need to move them first... best of all is to replace the screws, but it may not be necessary if you can get them a lot closer to right without.

 

[b0nkersx]

Right I see what you mean, also I forgot yo tell you that, I took into consideration about what you about learning to be more dynamic when playing the Recto. so with that being said, I decided to play the Recto and shortly after messing around with the Recto for a bit. I finally realized that how much gain comes from the amp, all depends on how hard you attack the strings on guitar. I'e when I strummed a power chord lightly on the guitar, I discovered that the attack did actually have gain to it, but the attack didn't sound very aggressive through the speakers, so then I decided to strum the same power chord I had just previously played, but with a bit more force behind the attack and after strumming the power chord on the guitar for the second time, I noticed that the attack of the power chord, still had gain to it, but the attack of the power chord sounded a lot more aggressive through the speakers of the amp.

Also for home playing. I have found that when I cranked the master volume on the amp up to 9 o'clock, it really allowed the speakers of the cabinet open, up in terms of the sound it produces, also I now understand that getting a good sound of the Recto, can actually be quite a difficult task for my most people including myself, but I take it that the reason for this is simply, because of how sensitive the Eq settings on the amp are, also I think this is worth mentioning. The pickup I'm using in the bridge of my guitar is a duncan designed active pickups, but the height of pickup is furthest away from the string, but I can't just the height of the pickup, because both screws are worn out on the pickup, so I was just wondering would this also cause a weak amount of gain to come through the amps signal?

If you want, try turning the channel master up even more. You can lower the output to compensate. It removes the infamous recto fizz, but it makes it hard to balance volume levels across the channels. It doesn't really matter when you're playing in your bedroom regardless.

Just sharing a tip that I've discovered for low volume playing.

 

[bermuda_]

yeah, I couldn't agree with you more man, tube amps are more a lot more rewarding to play than solid state amps but to be honest that doesn't change the fact, that there still quite hard to play clean through I also found that when using the Recto a noise gate really is needed, especially when you turn the amp up louder

Also It's just a shame that some guitar musicians out their, don't give tube amps a chance, a perfect example of this would be my younger brother, he's a guitarist like myself, and quite a good one may I add :lol:, but the thing is though he loves how solid state amps sound, he would always tell me my Recto sounded like crap, but I on the other hand, have always loved how a tube amp sounds, Words can't describe how lovely these sound when there cranked, where's on the other hand no matter how loud you crank a solid state amp, it's always going to have the sound to it, also is it me or do solid state have a very artificial sound to them to begin with,

But having said that the reason why I dislike boosting my tube amp, is because I love how the amp sounds so natural on it;s own, I have always felt that when you boost a tube amp, it tends to sound to a lot like more like a solid state amp.

 

[Soma]

I got a chance to crank my amp again and thought I'd post some results since it sounds like we have/had similiar issues. When I had the volume low I'd be cranking the presence and mids to fill out the sound and make it bigger and crunchier while also keeping it tight sounding. What I found was that the louder I turned the amp up the lower I wanted the mids and presence to where I had the mids at about 9-10 o'clock and the presence down around 5. This stopped the sound getting boxy and flat.

Might be obvious to you guys that have been using Boogies for ages, but came as a surprise to me after playing with the volume low and the mids and presence pretty much dimed for so long.

Hope this helps a little

Cheers.

 

[YellowJacket]

Yellowjackets don't *just* lower the power - and they don't even lower the volume until they reach their headroom limit, all the controls will have the same range up to then - they also change the tone a lot, restricting the bass and making the power section tighter and more compressed. This *might* be exactly what you want. They aren't very expensive, and at least you can keep them if you move onto a different amp. You only need two, even for a Dual Rectifier - you can run only one pair, leaving the other two sockets empty - although for a good impedance match you then need to connect the speaker to one of the 4-ohm jacks, even for an 8 or 16-ohm cab - I could explain why but it's more complicated than you need to know right now . Or you can get four, but I would probably try running two and two of the 6L6s together instead, which is almost like the Simul-Class power section in a Mark series. (And needs the normal impedance match.)

But still, before you think about that, work with the controls and the pedal you already have. If you're getting close but not quite there, then it may be worth looking into other stuff like this.

I run Yellowjackets almost exclusively with my amp and I don't totally agree with your assessment of them.

Yes - they make a dual become a different amp. A much improved clean is a big part of that. Also, the gain tone becomes much more 'marshall-y' just like switching to EL-34s. The tone is warmer and less aggressive.

Yes - they make the power section tighter although I would argue about the compression aspect.

They do not restrict the low end response drastically, they just run the amp in class A which lowers power. The same way the Triple had more gut busting thump than a Dual which has more gut busting thump than a single.

The reality of the situation is that two EL 84s running in a class A circuit do not have enough power to drive a quartet of Vintage 30s. If you swap in two YellowJackets, you will NEED a new cab, provided you want a more usable tone When I first purchased my Yellowjackets I was very VERY disappointed in them. Through my Rectocab, all your criticisms were very accurate and well founded. I felt that using Yellowjackets ruined the amp because it sounded like there wasn't any grunt left and the power section would clip far too soon, muddying the sound up greatly.

I had them [yellowjackets] in my amp when I was shopping at Mothers Music in Winnipeg one day and the guitar salesman wanted to know what they did. That day I had an epiphany. I plugged the amp into a Marshall 4 x 12 loaded with G12m Greenbacks. I was shocked! The amp sounded great, even at far lower volumes than I was accustomed to. Although G12ms have been known to be farty in the bass, they were tight and punchy with the lower wattage setup. Also, the low end was present. TOTALLY different response.

Yellowjackets sound GREAT when combined with the right speaker enclosure. Just be aware that they sound different. It is no longer the same amp. If you want the sound of a thunderous high gain halfstack, it comes with a price, which is excessive volume. Since I already have a Rectocab, I didn't want another 4x12 so I found some plans for a thiele cab and built a thiele 2 x 12 this summer which I run with the yellowjackets. Now the thiele enhances low end response and only running two speakers is a much more manageable load for the EL-34s to push.

The amp is still loud with this setup, but it is far less so. Just be aware that with guitar gear there is no such thing as quiet. The requirement of pushing an amp into clipping makes for extreme volume no matter what. Also be aware that you have to increase sound pressure level by ten fold to get a perceived doubling of volume so a 15watt amp is half as loud as a triple rec(150watts). Your best case scenario is to run Yellowjackets with lower efficiency speakers if you just can't deal with a LOUD amp. A V30 puts out 100db/watt/metre and handles 60watts. A G12m Heritage (greenback) puts out 96db/watt/metre and handles 20watts. A Dual running with the silicon diode rectifier on the bold setting puts out about 110-120watts. If the Dual is running with the tube rectifier on the spongy setting, it will put out about 75watts. If you run this amp with a rectocab, each watt puts out 100dbs of sound at a metre. This is with the amp running the power section wide open which would result in power section clipping. Realistically, the amp is most likely turned up between 1/4 and 1/3rd volume so it is ACTUALLY producing 10watts RMS in most rehearsal or gigging situations. Keep in mind that the volume pots have a taper that approximates and even increase in volume which means it is logrhythmically increasing power as you turn it up. At half power, it runs 10 watts RMS instead of 100.


Two Yellowjackets put out 15 - 20 watts in a dual which only puts out half the percieved volume-or sounds half as loud-as a dual with 4 6L6s when running the lower 96db speaker. Got that? Running a lower efficiency speaker has the same effect as dropping the power of the amp by half. So basically, a dual with two Yellowjackets and a low efficiency speaker like a Greenback will sound half as loud when cranked as a Dual with 4 6L6s running a Rectocab with V30s.

**Rest Break**

Ok, I'll try not to belabor this point unnecessarily but it is a personal grievance of mine is how many guitarists talk about the effect of amp volume on tone and neglect the speaker response. A MAJORITY of the reason Duals and Triples sound good cranked is because of speaker response. The amps are designed to sound good at many volume levels, it says so in the manual. High gain heads rely mostly on preamp distortion for tone, a point which has been pushed into the ground repeatedly on this forum and others, I'm sure. What is so absolutely important about speakers is that some sound good at lower volumes than others. In my opinion, Celestion Vintage 30s sound good only at extreme volumes. In my experience, they sound constipated until the volume on my dual-filled with 6L6s-is running at 1/3rd. (I have a two channel model so I do not know what that volume setting is between the master and channel volumes) When the V30s have enough power running through them, the ice pick highs are melted and the speakers just roar like crazy. Thunderous madness!!
Speakers like G12T - 75s or even moreso, G12m - 25s or G12m Heritage sound good at lower volumes. This allows for a usable tone at much lower volumes. Furthermore, the speakers are not as sensitive so you can run your amp hotter. You know, getting that CRANKED sound in volume sensitive gigging situations. The problem is that they simply don't sound the same as a v30. Don't be fooled, the speaker cab and drivers is half of your amp. Try running a dual with crap speakers, you'll see.

Finally, look for a decent practice amp. EVERY guitarist needs one, in my opinion. There are simply situations where you have to put the volume of a 15watt solid state amp on 0.5 to not annoy the neighbors. Yellow Jackets won't get the levels low enough for jamming in an apartment but they will make soundmen happy. The downside is that the drummer might eat you for breakfast. Many times.

Summary: You need a low wattage low sensitivity speaker enclosure i.e. >100 watts total handling power to run a Dual with two Yellowjackets and reap the benefits of good tone at a lower volume. Even then, the tone is not what you are used to. You'll love it or hate it but it is different.

 

[94Tremoverb]

I do agree with most of that, except...

Yellowjackets do not run the EL84s in Class A, no matter what THD say. They run them in cathode-biased Class AB, which is quite different although very often mistaken for the same thing! They also run with separate cathode resistors (one in each adaptor base) which increases the Class AB characteristic of bias voltage rising with signal level, even more so than amps such as the AC30 which use a common cathode resistor (due to there being no cancellation between the opposite AC currents in each half, as there is with a common resistor)... and this is what causes the extra compression. The differences in 'authority' and thump between the Single, Dual and Triple Rectifiers are due to the size of the transformers and the number of power tubes, not the Class - they're all Class AB.

I also wouldn't say they improved the cleans - it depends what you want. Personally I thought they made the cleans worse, by which I mean less deep and open, but improved the overdrive exactly by making it more compressed and touch-responsive without excessive volume changes when going dynamically from nearly-clean to full-on. But since I was playing fully clean about 70% of the time in the band I was in at the time, I didn't really like the result as much as I expected.

I do totally agree about them sounding better with different speakers, exactly because they change the whole characteristic of the power section - and I agree about Greenbacks! Even better, try a cab with the old 10" Celestion 7442s if you can find them, pure magic . I don't know what their sensitivity is but I'd guess around 95dB.

I have an old Peavey Backstage Plus as a practice amp by the way. It does sound really good at 0.5!