Suggestions on first rack mount effects unit please

[jdurso]

Thanks Jdurso

I guess i will have to do some research on these relay switching devices and how they would work in conjuction with my DMC ground controll pro, MY amps channel-switching input, and a Axe Fx rack mount

Ya know I have become real comfortable with my rig, I run my g major into my amps effects loop along with a MIDI - dmc ground controll pro floorboard. It has become real convienient for me (I like using both of my amps channels) to have amp channel switching capabilities (via relay switch) so i can take my various eddited g major effects and have them simply organized so for live playing I got 2 clean rhythyms 2 clean leads,2 dirty rhythyms and 4 dirty leads all in front of me at my feet. When i need a boost in any of my 10 favorite created effects I just use my stiletto ace's solo boost foot-switch to add overall volume.

There are some great tutorial videos here.... http://rjmmusic.com/videos.php#player


If you look at the FAQ for the Mastermind on how to control the RG-16 and a Midi Unit, you'll see a lot of familiar equipment :wink: There is also one for the ground control pro.

 

[surferdeac]

Thanks again Jdurso!

One last question for ya if ya don't mind me asking. From my research on this piece of gear axe fx ultra I see that it is extremely versatile in regards to way it can be utilized in a given rig setup. what is the optimal way to set it up and use it??????? I guess what i am trying to get at is does it optimally function well just by running it into your amp's effects loop and using it to compliment the "tonal properties" of your amp. can it be transparent sounding when using it in this manner. I see that it can do emulation type work of various cabs/heads etc if you run your guitar in front of the unit (plugging guitar right into the thing). Does one way to set it up in your rig simply sound better than the other????. if you run it into your effects loop is it possible to "blend" the tonal property of your amp head (preamp stage of your amp) with the Axe fx's onboard emulated preamp cab/head sounds. If so, does it seem to work/sound well (organic sounding and not so much digital sounding)???

Sorry for asking more than one question. got carried away, but i am trying to make a decision on a new rackmount processor and this was on the list along with a eventide eclipse and a g force. It seems like this particular unit can do some extra stuff like amp/cab emulation stuff, but what is really important to me is that it can be used in the "Effects loop of my amp optimally"

I like using MIDI. I just would like to have the ability for my MIDI/Rack setup to communicate and be able to switch channels on my amp as well all in one Tap dance so to speak . I guess that can be done with added gear (as you have already pointed out) i just wish more of the higher end rack mounts had relay switches built in

Thank you to the original OP (original poster) for getting this thread started!!

 

[ryjan]

Imo, the 4CM would be the best way to set up an axe-fx because you have the option of programming your fx chain. About channel switching on your amp, some midi pedal boards like the behringer have 2 relays in them for amp switching. If you are only switching between 1 or 2 things it might save you from dropping a lot of cash on a stand alone amp switching device because you are going to need a pedal board anyway.

 

[surferdeac]

thanks ryjan

I already have a dmc ground controll pro MIDI board so I wanted to be able to utilize it with whatever rackmount i decide to upgrade to so i don't have to spend even more money on getting another MIDI board / something that may more efficiently communicate with the axe fx.

I really like my DMC Ground controll pro and don't mind programming it with something new

That being said the only thing that i personally would like to do is utilize the axe fx ultra to communicate with my MiDI board to change presets/edited presets on the axe fx ultra all while having the ability to switch between clean and dirty channels on my amp so i can utilize the axe fx effects on different channels on my amp.

I may someday acquire some good/true bypass pedals to utilize in my rig so i think having something like the gcx system or the rg16 amp would be good to have. I know the gcx amp switching system is compatible with my DMC and so isn't the Rg-16. But if the Axe fx ultra isn't optimally compatible with a combination of the dmc pro/ gcx or dmc / rg-16 setup, then i will probably look into getting either an eventide eclipse or a g-force unit. Still doing research on this so i am sure i will know a little bit more next time hopefully :mrgreen:

 

[surferdeac]

I think i am going to go for the GcX audio switcher just because they (DMC ground controll pro and Gcx audio switcher work really well with one another)

Both Voodoo lab products.

JUst gotta find out if the axe fx rack would efficiently communicate with these two devices while still being able to utilize the axe fx ultra to its fullest.

 

[ryjan]

Midi is a universal language man. The axe-fx will definitely work with the voodoo products via midi.

 

[surferdeac]

i here ya

that being said has anybody had success running the axe fx ultra into their amps effects loop???????

oh and thanks to all that have shared their opinions on the Axe Fx ultra and the Eventide eclipse on other posts on the Boogie Board !!!!

oh and buy the way i was at a a concert at the Bank of america pavillion in Boston this past summer and Saw Dream theater as well as Zappa. Why i bring this up is because during Zappa's set (i know he uses the AXe ultra Fx unit) he was having some technical difficulties with his rig set up towards the end of his set. Q@#$# happens wasn't a big deal or anything (must be nerve racking however when you are opening up for DT) but now that i am really researching this Axe fx ultra I wonder if maybe that's what was giving him problems or if it was simply a bad connection somewhere in one of the cables to his speakers (sounded like bad speaker connection for he would play and get a crackling sound from his speaker but it was weird because if i recall it seemed to happen when he either tried to turn up his volume or change so some of his presests. you would never know unless you talked to his technician
it took his tech between 10 minutes to resolve the issue. everything was fine after that.

 

[ryjan]

Most likely something was plugged in wrong. You can use it exclusively in your effects loop but you would be missing out on most of the features that the axe-fx has. By using the 4 cable setup you will be able to use your preamp as you normally would but would have the option to put the effects before or after your amp and with a tap of the footswitch, you could switch to a preamp model within the axe-fx bypassing your amps preamp.

 

[surferdeac]

Thanks Ryjan

You can use it exclusively in your effects loop but you would be missing out on most of the features that the axe-fx has

MIssing out on most of the features it has. could you explain please. Do you mean I wouldn't be able to utilize cab/head simulations of the axe?
from my "limited" experience with rackmount processing gear i always found that by using the effects loop instead of plugging the guitar into the effects and then into the amp reduced the amount of overall floor noise. But i see that the axe fx is much more than your standard rackmount effects processor.

By using the 4 cable setup you will be able to use your preamp as you normally would but would have the option to put the effects before or after your amp and with a tap of the footswitch, you could switch to a preamp model within the axe-fx bypassing your amps preamp.

Is there a way to "blend" the various preamp sounds of the axe fx ultra with your amps preamp. I guess in my head i was thinking that if you could put the axefx into the effects loop you could somehow blend the preamp stages of the axe fx with the preamp stage of your own amp.

wishfull thinking i guess

I will have to read up more on this 4 cable setup
Cheers !

 

[ryjan]

From what I've read you can run 2 preamps simultaneously with the axe-fx and blend them. The 4 cable method is guitar>axe-fx instrument input, axe-fx loop send>amp instrument input, amp loop send>axe-fx loop return, axe-fx output>amp loop return.
By doing this your amp becomes one of the selectable preamps in the axe-fx menu under "external". Then the axe-fx effects aren't stuck in the amp's loop but can be placed in front of the amp as well (such as od, wah, comp, etc.). This setup by far offers the most versitillity and takes full advantage of using your existing tube amp right along with every feature of the axe-fx. It works really cool too. Think of having your amps lead chanel going with effects from the processor, then hitting a midi switch and going to a soldano amp or a fender clean, or an engl, or ..... well you get the picture.

 

[jdurso]

Here's what i suggest... if your using the AXE in the 4CM, I would not try and blend your tube preamp and the axe's by throwing one on top of the other. Basically in the 4CM your amp's preamp will always be in the chain... if you introduce a preamp model from the Axe you wouldnt be blending them you'd be throwing one on top of the other and the results are not desirable. The same goes with the cab and power amp models... you're already throwing your signal through a power amp and into a cab, so therefore your doubling the effect which may or maynot sound good.

If you use the Axe in the 4CM or through the loop i would suggest just using the effects... they are super transparent once you get the levels right and have some of the best delays and reverbs out there. If you want to use the amp models your going to need something like the rg-16 so you can run a parrallel signal to that of the one being sent through your amp.

 

[surferdeac]

If you want to use the amp models your going to need something like the rg-16 so you can run a parrallel signal to that of the one being sent through your amp.

the GCX audio switcher by Voodoo labs will essentially do the same thing as the RG-16 with regards to handling a parallel signal to that of the one being sent through your amp correct?

 

[jdurso]

If you want to use the amp models your going to need something like the rg-16 so you can run a parrallel signal to that of the one being sent through your amp.

the GCX audio switcher by Voodoo labs will essentially do the same thing as the RG-16 with regards to handling a parallel signal to that of the one being sent through your amp correct?

yeah it will but the rg-16 gives you more flexibility as you get 8 dedicated audio loops... just my opinion though, if you want to go the gcx route then that will work as well.

 

[surferdeac]

The amp simulations, tube amp "preamp simulations"/cab simulations "aside" when we are just comparing its raw effects processing abilities and "transparency" through your own preamp in your amps effects loop, how does this unit compare to a tc G - Force/ TC Electronic FireworX in your opinion that is if you have had the opportunity to try one out ???

 

[ryjan]

Here's what i suggest... if your using the AXE in the 4CM, I would not try and blend your tube preamp and the axe's by throwing one on top of the other. Basically in the 4CM your amp's preamp will always be in the chain... if you introduce a preamp model from the Axe you wouldnt be blending them you'd be throwing one on top of the other and the results are not desirable. The same goes with the cab and power amp models... you're already throwing your signal through a power amp and into a cab, so therefore your doubling the effect which may or maynot sound good.

If you use the Axe in the 4CM or through the loop i would suggest just using the effects... they are super transparent once you get the levels right and have some of the best delays and reverbs out there. If you want to use the amp models your going to need something like the rg-16 so you can run a parrallel signal to that of the one being sent through your amp.

Thats not how it works in 4CM. You have the option of activating or deactivating your tube preamp so its not "always in the chain". And the axe-fx can run 2 preamps at once. It runs them parallel not in series so the outcome , even through a mono rig, sound like if you ran one guitar into two different amps.

 

[surferdeac]

yeah man actually i am considering one!! I have had a g major for a while now and am considering getting the g force because i have heard its a little bit more transparent than the g major and gives you "ROUTING CAPABILITIES" that the g major simply doesn't offer. As a matter a fact that is my biggest gripe with it right now (lack of routing capabilities). I think that the pitch type effects are ok on the G major but could be better. I predominantly use delays subtle choruses, reverbs, noise gate, compression, EQ in some of my edited preset in my G-major. I sometimes sit back and say gee man i wish i could have some routing capabilities of my effects here. I have become very comfortable with navigating through my g major and "tweaking" effects to my liking, and believe i was able to get the most out of it. i am happy with my rig right now but my next big investment might be the G-force. I was initially worried about how long and old it is but if you think about it if it aint broke don't fix it. Professional musicians must still be utilizing it and buying it otherwise it probably would have been replaced by now with a similar but better/newer rack. With some tweaking i was able to get some pretty good transparent sounding effects through both my Carvin legacy combo as well as my new ACE head/recto cab with my G major.
If the G-force is more transparent sounding than the G-major and has better sounding Pitch type effects than i would be as happy as a bug in a Rug

Another thing to note is that the G-force has come out with a G-force artist card that includes some 245 custom artist presets (sure most g force users know of this) designed by guitarists. This PCMCIA format card loads into your G-Force and can be accessed from the front panel.
It would be nice to acquire this card as a "reference" as to see how and what types and levels/settings of effects these various artists were using to acquire some of their own unique created effects blocks.

I am looking for transparency of effects through my amp
I am also considering acquiring a gcx audio switcher and a couple good true bypass pedals to add to my rig.

I wish money grew on trees sometimes :lol:

 

[surferdeac]

Have you considered the TC Electronic G-Force. I have one and I love it. I replaced 3 Rocktron Processors in my rig.

my previous thread was in response to this quote even though it was not directed to myself but directed to the OP i believe sorry

 

[ryjan]

For about the same money, the axe-fx has more features and has better quality effects imo.

 

[surferdeac]

Thats not how it works in 4CM. You have the option of activating or deactivating your tube preamp so its not "always in the chain". And the axe-fx can run 2 preamps at once. It runs them parallel not in series so the outcome , even through a mono rig, sound like if you ran one guitar into two different amps.

3 question on this one if ya don't mind

if you keep your tube preamp activated in the chain can you run "1" axe fx preamp preset along with your tube preamp section??

if i wanted the ability to change channels on my amp and i don't want to have to make an extra tap dance to engage my amp's channel footswitcher, would their be a cheaper way than acquiring something like a gcx audio switcher to tell my MIDI floorboard (DMC Ground Controll pro) to change channels on my amp seeing that the Axe fx ultra doesn't have a built in relay switch.

THIs 4cm method while seeming to give you a lot of user versatility, i seem a little bit weary of it because it seems to me that many people have had issues regarding getting either ground loop noise/ excessive floor noise /hiss from this sort of set up? more so than just using the AXe fx in the effects loop, or simply avoiding using it with your tube amps preamp stage in general?

I cant speak from experience on the 4cm method whether or not its inevitably gonna be a little bit louder from a floor noise stand point or ground loopier so to speak, than your standard all out fx loop connection.

 

[jdurso]

Here's what i suggest... if your using the AXE in the 4CM, I would not try and blend your tube preamp and the axe's by throwing one on top of the other. Basically in the 4CM your amp's preamp will always be in the chain... if you introduce a preamp model from the Axe you wouldnt be blending them you'd be throwing one on top of the other and the results are not desirable. The same goes with the cab and power amp models... you're already throwing your signal through a power amp and into a cab, so therefore your doubling the effect which may or maynot sound good.

If you use the Axe in the 4CM or through the loop i would suggest just using the effects... they are super transparent once you get the levels right and have some of the best delays and reverbs out there. If you want to use the amp models your going to need something like the rg-16 so you can run a parrallel signal to that of the one being sent through your amp.

Thats not how it works in 4CM. You have the option of activating or deactivating your tube preamp so its not "always in the chain". And the axe-fx can run 2 preamps at once. It runs them parallel not in series so the outcome , even through a mono rig, sound like if you ran one guitar into two different amps.

I understand how the 4CM works... and i guess you could run them in parrellel using the axe but i cant see the blend being desirable. If anything the best way to mix them still using a amp's power section would be to get a line mixer but even then the ad/da converters while good arent THAT good. My experience thus far shows the Axe to sound inifitely better through a SS power amp and a slat sounding cab or a FRFR solution. Again if he's going to use the 4CM i would even bother with the amp models because your not getting the full use of the models by coloring them with your amps poweramp and your cab. In my experience the Axe is best suited for just effects in the 4CM or used as the source of all your tones and effects.