Should Mesa Boogie reissue the Mark IIC+ ?

[pmac11]

What do you think?

 

[woodbutcher65]

Yes, a detailed, exact reissue to the largest extent possible, given that some original parts such as the specific CTS linear faders used in the EQ are no longer available. So the EQ travel may be a bit shorter...so what? I could deal with that. But I'd welcome an authentic new built IIC+ and would put a deposit on one NOW. Just make sure it has the 105 power transformer.

I have never found any need for an R2 channel so a 2 channel Mark amp is truly just fine for me. I don't use R2 on my Mark III, and don't use the middle channel of my Mark V 90.

 

[FedWar]

As an owner of two mark IIC+ (and a IIB loop modded,a Mark III RS and ex-owner of a IVB and JP-2C) I think that this will never happen, for two reasons:
1) Mesa is adamant on the fact that having so many knob and push and pulls is counter intuitive for the average user.
They prefer to give you single channels based on the most used configurations, i.e. JP-2C which has volume1, treble shift and lead master hardwired pulled.
Mark V gave you the possibility to switch between Lead bright, and pentode / triode, mark VII took that away.
To me this is a non sense since I love to do all the in between sounds, with low volume1 settings, and treble shift pushed etc.

It it was to me, I would create a three clone channel beast each with its own pull pushes knobs and 2 GEQs (so jp2c but totally configurable).
But hey...

2) a re-issue would never feel like the real deal, otherwise they would have us flooded with it already and made a ton of money.
the mark IIC+ is a sum of all its parts: transformers, caps, lead, productive process, materials all specific to that time.
JP-2C and mark VII are now the closest thing there is, they even put back the massive transformer on both of them.
Do they sound great? Sure, are they 100% the same? No.



I'm more and more convinced that a 100% replica is simply not possibile.
And that's why I will never part with mine

 

[Koch3311]

Als Besitzer von zwei Mark IIC+ (und einem IIB-Loop-Modded, einem Mark III RS und Ex-Besitzer eines IVB und JP-2C) denke ich, dass dies aus zwei Gründen nie passieren wird:
1) Mesa ist unnachgiebig auf der Tatsache, dass so viele Knöpfe und Drücken und Ziehen für den durchschnittlichen Benutzer kontraintuitiv sind.
Sie bevorzugen es, Ihnen einzelne Kanäle basierend auf den am häufigsten verwendeten Konfigurationen zur Verfügung zu stellen, z. B. JP-2C, bei dem Volume1, Treble Shift und Lead Master fest verdrahtet sind.
Mark V gab Ihnen die Möglichkeit, zwischen Blei hell und Pentode / Triode zu wechseln, Mark VII hat das weggenommen.
Für mich ist das ein Unsinn, da ich es liebe, alle Zwischentöne zu machen, mit niedrigen Lautstärkeeinstellungen1 und Hochtonverschiebung usw.

Wenn es für mich ginge, würde ich ein Drei-Klon-Kanal-Biest mit jeweils eigenen Pull-Pushes-Knöpfen und 2 GEQs (also jp2c, aber völlig konfigurierbar) erstellen.
Aber hey...

2) Eine Neuauflage würde sich nie wie ein echter Deal anfühlen, sonst würden sie uns bereits damit überschwemmen und eine Menge Geld verdienen.
Die Marke IIC+ ist eine Summe aller ihrer Teile: Transformatoren, Kappen, Blei, Produktionsprozess, Materialien, die alle für diese Zeit spezifisch waren.
JP-2C und Mark VII sind jetzt das nächste, was es gibt, sie haben sogar den massiven Transformator auf beide zurückgesetzt.
Hören sie sich gut an? Sicher, sind sie zu 100% gleich? Nein.



Ich bin immer mehr davon überzeugt, dass eine 100%ige Nachbildung einfach nicht möglich ist.
Und deshalb werde ich mich nie von meinem trennen

 

[Koch3311]

Habe einen MKIIC+ seit 30 Jahren und überlege, ihn zu verkaufen, weil ich bald 80 bin. Sein lassen ?

 

[Jay Omega]

The trouble they’d run into is which version? 60? 60/100? Simul? Coli? Which power transformer? What chassis width? Reverb? EQ? Problem is people seem to be particular about many of these items when chasing the “holy grail” IIC+, and all of these variants make a reissue impractical. Boogie used to be more of a boutique shop, but now they’re geared up for mass production and I don’t see them heading back.

I wondered whether they could be replicated for years, and after a recent prototype my conclusion is it’s definitely possible. You’d have to go to a custom builder who knows the amp. It’s tricky, and would be costly, but certainly doable.

I’d bet if you’d ask Boogie they’d tell you they’ve already reissued it, in new and improved incarnations, thru the Mark V, JP-2C, and now Mark VII

 

[FedWar]

Habe einen MKIIC+ seit 30 Jahren und überlege, ihn zu verkaufen, weil ich bald 80 bin. Sein lassen ?

Which version do you own?
60W, 60/100W, simulclass, coliseum, export power transformer, graphic EQ?

 

[woodbutcher65]

I would figure that the optimal version is the four power tube Simulclass version built in a widebody head, with reverb and EQ. A 60 can't be simulclass, a Coliseum is just too much for almost everybody and puts you into a different set of transformers so there's a different tone.

 

[funk49]

I've had this conversation with Mike Bendinelli probably have a dozen times (a long time ago) and his answer was always the same, "It'll never happen. Partly because of political reasons and partly because they couldn't source the original components." Granted, this was before the MKV, JP-2C and MKVII but I would imagine chances are less than before, with the options they've created.

 

[user 41014]

The trouble they’d run into is which version? 60? 60/100? Simul? Coli? Which power transformer? What chassis width? Reverb? EQ?

Coli! Coli! Coli!
That makes the tranny question easy.

I hear say Gibson is hands off. The day that changes the first of the re-issue's happens. Bob Moog had the game down releasing a batch of bucket brigade delays each time their second hand market got overheated. It can be done for max value in the after market or they could flood the market.

The demand is pretty obviously there and the scale would allow for the old iron to brought back if not the 387 or winged =C=. Those and the 7581A would be the blockbuster return out of reach. If my current coli that I have no interest in selling drops 5-10K I won't cry and will wish they went lower so I could get another.

Keep your simul-class away from my re-issue coli please! A batch of MS-12's would be needed for non-coli, horse and all. Sockets hand-railed by the elf that wanted to be a dentist. K600 anyone?

 

[mark1406]

What do you think?

Well Mesa Boogie has reissued the Mark 1 amp several times and the Mark 2C+ gets a lot of attention.

Mind you, unless I played one that I really liked. I would stick with my SOB.

 

[tjt73]

Every thread on this always ends up the same. Which 2c+ would be ideal. Opinions seem to vary a lot. Given that and the manufacturing issue of parts availability and cost of doing it, I don't see it happening. Got to keep in mind also, while mesa fans hold the 2c+ in high regard, in the overall scheme of things that number is small. At what price would they have to put it out where they could still make it profitable for them and still be attainable for us.

 

[jsullivan2112]

Nah.

 

[user 41014]

Every thread on this always ends up the same. Which 2c+ would be ideal. Opinions seem to vary a lot. Given that and the manufacturing issue of parts availability and cost of doing it, I don't see it happening. Got to keep in mind also, while mesa fans hold the 2c+ in high regard, in the overall scheme of things that number is small. At what price would they have to put it out where they could still make it profitable for them and still be attainable for us.

$4,200.
Much less going on inside than a Mark VII even with special tranny's. Given inflation over the period of time the VII settles in, $5k. Though if they added "limited edition" to the name and had MB initial a numbered certificate they would squeeze an extra 1K out of everyone. That wouldn't crash the price of the original.

I'm not saying it should or shouldn't happen but Fender has made a business around re-issues for which the options change. If I was Gibson, errrr Mesa, each re-issue version would be different from the previous so stupid people like me want to own them all instead of one ring to rule them all.

Not all those that wander are lost. And a reissue in someone's lifetime will happen as sure as the world is round and wobbly regardless of what I think.

 

[woodbutcher65]

Honestly I don't see any game stoppers to reissuing the IIC+. There's no part in it that no equal substitute isn't available. OK, the EQ sliders may have a different travel length. Resistors, no problem. Capacitors, no problem. CDE makes orange drops. Transformers, no problem, there are several manufacturers that can build them to the original specs. Metalwork, no problem. Pots, no problem, though the CTS series with SPST push-pull switches is discontinued and there is a newer series with even more versatile switching being made now. It's a better unit.

And it's not like we don't have any decent tubes to choose from. They may not be as good as the legendary blue and green label STR 415s but they're good enough.

Why would there be a political issue over it? Never let politics get in the way of business. Supply and demand. People demand it, and want to pay enough for it to pull a decent profit, so supply it. Simple. It's not like a reissue which is identifiably not an original (the serial number alone should be an obvious difference) is going to destroy the market for originals. It may cool off some overheated pricing slightly, but originals will still have serious collector's value no matter what. Marshall's hand-wired point to point reissues of 1959 Superleads proves that. It didn't affect the collector's market for the originals at all.

 

[meesa_jarjar]

Honestly I don't see any game stoppers to reissuing the IIC+. There's no part in it that no equal substitute isn't available. OK, the EQ sliders may have a different travel length. Resistors, no problem. Capacitors, no problem. CDE makes orange drops. Transformers, no problem, there are several manufacturers that can build them to the original specs. Metalwork, no problem. Pots, no problem, though the CTS series with SPST push-pull switches is discontinued and there is a newer series with even more versatile switching being made now. It's a better unit.

And it's not like we don't have any decent tubes to choose from. They may not be as good as the legendary blue and green label STR 415s but they're good enough.

Why would there be a political issue over it? Never let politics get in the way of business. Supply and demand. People demand it, and want to pay enough for it to pull a decent profit, so supply it. Simple. It's not like a reissue which is identifiably not an original (the serial number alone should be an obvious difference) is going to destroy the market for originals. It may cool off some overheated pricing slightly, but originals will still have serious collector's value no matter what. Marshall's hand-wired point to point reissues of 1959 Superleads proves that. It didn't affect the collector's market for the originals at all.

If I were to guess, there could be some IP tied to the original transformer designs which doesn't belong to Mesa, and either the owner's price isn't being met, or collaborating companies had some sort of falling out. I can't think of one other component that couldn't be sourced today with off-the-shelf parts.

 

[funk49]

If I were to guess, there could be some IP tied to the original transformer designs which doesn't belong to Mesa, and either the owner's price isn't being met, or collaborating companies had some sort of falling out. I can't think of one other component that couldn't be sourced today with off-the-shelf parts.

IIRC, MB mentioned that the transformers were one of the things they couldn't source. I never understood why they couldn't just pull out their designs and just make more but then again, I don't build amps for a living.

 

[FedWar]

some sa

IIRC, MB mentioned that the transformers were one of the things they couldn't source. I never understood why they couldn't just pull out their designs and just make more but then again, I don't build amps for a living.

the rumor is that build process cannot replicated anymore due to new regulations.

 

[Jay Omega]

some sa

the rumor is that build process cannot replicated anymore due to new regulations.

I always wondered what they specifically meant by this, I’ve only heard Randall reference this in context of the output transformers. Maybe the varnish they used is no longer available?

I’m not sure the 60 and 60/100 output transformers of this era are a big departure from commonly available stuff. If you look at the IIC manual, they say to sub a bassman for a 60, and a twin / showman for a 100, until a replacement arrives. I’ve also read Randall needed only minor modifications from fender designs and that’s how he convinced Schumacher to make smaller runs for him by piggybacking on Fender runs as only minor setup changes were needed. So my theory is if you find a decent quality bassman or showman replacement with 4/8 ohm taps, those would be adequate.

I wonder if he knows UL would never list the old build method

 

[user 41014]

I’m not sure the 60 and 60/100 output transformers of this era are a big departure from commonly available stuff. If you look at the IIC manual, they say to sub a bassman for a 60, and a twin / showman for a 100, until a replacement arrives.

Thank you for this.
The '76 boogie H(R added later) I'm working on has the twin/showman OT. I don't think I'll wait for a replacement. That is unless someone shelved a 60/100 OT 40 years ago just in case.