Roadster W/D/W Experiment

[domct203]

I finally aquired all the gear for a W/D/W setup with my Roadster Rig:

It's pretty much my basic A Rig now dry, through the G-Major 100% Wet into a Recto 2:100 feeding two Recto Vertical 2X12's.

While the Ping Ping delays were cool to mess with, overall it just didn't live up to my expectations.

The guys in the band said the rig sounded too processed and that my core tone was much better before. I agree.

At first I ran the Slave out split into L/R thru the G-Maj, L/R into the 2:100, L/R into the 2X12's. The WET signal was very thin and bright. It really effected the over all timbre of the rig. I tried a GEQ right after the Slave Out but it really didn't help as I wanted.

Next I put an SM57 on the 4X12, into a small mixer and used the mixer's channel insert to feed the G-Maj/2:100. While this warned up the WET cabs 100% I still really was not that impressed. Although my physical soundstage was wider the overall tone of the rig was weak and thin.

Maybe I have some kind of phase issue? I don't think it's volume as I did try cranking the rig. The only result was not being able to hear the rest of the band LOL.

I'm really just doing this to try it. Most places I play don't have room fr a rig this size, but I still would like to master a W/D/W rig for sh!ts & giggles.

Any suggestions?

Dom

 

[lespaulguy32]

WOW! :shock:

 

[screamingdaisy]

It could be that the left and right cabs are too loud and/or full relative to the centre cab. In that setup you're pumping a 100w dry signal through 4 speakers and 200w of wet signal through an equal number of speakers. I've read a few dudes comment that they use 1x12s as the wet cabs to help reduce their size in the mix.

It might help to start with stereo wet/dry and figure out the levels before adding in the third channel.

 

[Stratocaster]

Dom,

Grats on the 'proof of concept' moment you've got going on, and I do agree that there is a ton of learning opportunity there whether it makes it into your gigging rig(s) or not.

For the tone preservation, I think you're quickly reaching the point where you have to consider adding this to the mix....
http://www.rjmmusic.com/rackgizmo.php, or something equivalent as a buffering solution (as I know you've got your switching situation under control already).

My only other advice at this time is 'not to loose the forest through the trees'....meaning, get your dry tone dialed in first and be happy with that, then work on the wet tone with the dry tone all the way down. Get that so you're equally as happy. Only then do you put them together and tweak lightly to get them to play well together.

Hope this goes well for you, and I'll be lurking to see how it plays out.

Strat.


ps -
I've had my YJM-100 for about a month now, and I'm in the middle of trying to figure out if I really want to go RKII for clean/rhythm and YJM for lead. Seriously thinking about running a RK head/RK 4x12 cab and a YJM-100/1960ahw, and working through my signal/switching gameplan now.

 

[KH Guitar Freak]

Hmmm. Would splitting the signal via the G-Major bring up any potential problems of the wet signal not sounding right? This might sound like an expensive experiment, but maybe try this???

http://www.radialeng.com/r2011/jx44.php

 

[domct203]

Hmmm. Would splitting the signal via the G-Major bring up any potential problems of the wet signal not sounding right?

Interesting point. What I did was run the dry signal into the Mono input of the G-Maj then let the G-Maj create the stereo L/R split. I have a Radial ABY I can use to split the dry into two signals first then feed stereo into the G-Maj.

I already have a good dry tone, so I guess I also need to find a way to set the Wet's tone without the dry cab mixed in. That is going to be hard when I'm micing the dry cab to feed the Wet cabs LOL.

I did try turning down the Wet volume which did make my overall tone better, problem was that the Chorus and Reverb effects dissapeared.

A lot of good info so far, keep the suggestions coming!

Dom

 

[screamingdaisy]

I already have a good dry tone, so I guess I also need to find a way to set the Wet's tone without the dry cab mixed in. That is going to be hard when I'm micing the dry cab to feed the Wet cabs LOL.

So... you're mic'ing the dry cab, then feeding the mic'd signal into the G Maj, power amp and wet cabs?

Wouldn't that introduce huge phase issues? There's already going to be latency from the G Maj's AD/DA conversion and you're adding even more by waiting to take the wet signal off the dry speaker. It could be why the results are so thin and weak.

Anyway, I'd try feeding the dry amp's FX loop send into the G-Maj, and then feed the G-Maj into the 2:100. There'll still be some latency but it'll be reduced compared to re-amping the speaker output.

 

[domct203]

I ended up trying a mic on the dry cab because of the thin tone from the slave out. It was an improvement but still thin, maybe that was from phasing issues.

I'll try the FX Loop send of the dry amp to see if it is of any improvement. I would really like to ultimatly take the dry signal from after the output section of the Roadster though.

I also have a Hotplate that I could try with no attenuation to get the line-out signal. I'm assuming it would most likely sound similar to the Amp's Slave Out but I'll give it a go anyway.

Dom

 

[screamingdaisy]

Whether the signal in the wet amps has the tone of the power amp or not isn't all that important IMO.

IMO, the whole idea of W/D/W is to get the dry to preserve all the power and immediacy of a guitar/cord/amp setup while still having the benefit of effects added into the mix. The effects should be coming relatively low in the mix... so low that their quality can be fairly compromised while still serving their purpose. The truth (again, IMO) is that you're never going to hear whether or not your delayed signal is pre or post power amp because the details of the repeats are going to be totally obliterated by the power of the dry signal.

 

[domct203]

Very good points. Using the FX Loop Send also has the advantage of the (pain-stakingly set) correct levels already going into/out of the G-Maj.

I'm starting to wonder if the 2:100 is too much amp (wait, is that even possible :twisted: ). I chose the 2:100 so I would not run out if clean headroom & "Modern Mode" Switching to truly match the Roadster's output section.

If I can get some time on the rig this week outside of band practice I'll give the FX Loop/less-is-more approach a go and report back.

Dom

 

[KH Guitar Freak]

Seems to me that such a W/D/W rig won't make too much of a difference with the cabs placed together so close to each other. Micing them, then send them to the PA probably works better...