REISSUE Rumor: Mark IIC+ and 2ch Recto

[rarebitusa]

Now mind you, they are all different and not better or worse than one another. Just different. So, what are your preferences on IIC+'s? Simul-class? 60/100? 60 watt, no GEQ?

Fodder indeed... FWIW having an HR for over 40 years you kinda have a chance to develop an opinion. Is it informed??? Dunno but I'll mudsling for the sake of fodder.

There are of course those folks who have had multiple IIC+s and have chronicled the comparisons. Very cool. I have only had one chance to do brief comparison with an SRG Combo. There certainly was a difference with the integrated GEQ and how it responded vs running on in the loop. Overall the SRG sounded like it had a bit less mid-range honk and lower end. Could have been the combo cab playing into it. Either way I liked the SRG mostly because it was different.

But IMHO it's all about the genre one gravitites towards. If one is into the heavy gain and more metal focused tones the differences in these amps probably plays into it more. It seems the balance of public comparisons and feature discussions are targeted towards the heavier tones. Putting the real heavy tones aside I think the IIC+ in any form, a III or a RI will float ones boat cause it's more about the shared tone stack and the ability to tweak settings in a unique way that sets these amps apart. I also think the unsung hero on these amps is Ch 1, it has an amazing organic response to pedals especially compression and boosting, extremely dynamic with pickup volume. I hope that the RI responds in the same way.

 

[Less02]

will this have the same issue as im having with my mark iii bluestripe(impossible to have a good clean and killer distortion at the same time)

Unless you are implementing the V1 mod. This mod is the only mod that should be executed on these mkIIC+ IMHO…

 

[Jamme1961]

Unless you are implementing the V1 mod. This mod is the only mod that should be executed on these mkIIC+ IMHO…

V1 mod?

 

[rarebitusa]

Unless you are implementing the V1 mod. This mod is the only mod that should be executed on these mkIIC+ IMHO…

I'm curious, what are the specific component mods that are involved with the "V1 mod"

 

[Less02]

V1 mod?

That’s a mod for adding a second Volume 1 pot. It allows you to have the clean indépendant from the lead. John Petrucci has it on at least one of his 2C+

 

[rarebitusa]

That’s a mod for adding a second Volume 1 pot. It allows you to have the clean indépendant from the lead. John Petrucci has it on at least one of his 2C+

Oh cool thanks.

 

[Less02]

I'm curious, what are the specific component mods that are involved with the "V1 mod"

It involves 2 additional LDRs and 1 mini potentiometer. It also involves moving the FS jack elsewhere. In my case, it replaces the gain boost jack underneath the chassis. The challenge is to hook up these LDRs ont the existing matrix, which has very limited power available. The new LDR also need to have the same forward voltage as the vactrol, now discontinued.

 

[Jamme1961]

Counting down the days

 

[bandit2013]

No manual for the IIC+ RI to review yet.

 

[tbonesullivan]

Let me add to the fodder here.... I was discussing the eminent release of the IIC+ reissue with a friend and he (let's just say he's in the business) is of the opinion that is will not be what a "reissue" is purported to be. During our discussion, he brought out an important point. What variants are going to be available/offered? He is not a fan of the Simul-class, rather preferring the 60/100 variant. I prefer the simul-class. Then, there is the 60 watt version and the list goes on. Each having their own sonic qualities. Now mind you, they are all different and not better or worse than one another. Just different. So, what are your preferences on IIC+'s? Simul-class? 60/100? 60 watt, no GEQ? (I am referring to an OG here). Unless you own or have played through these amps at one time for comparison, you will not be able to render a valid response. Everything else becomes speculative and second hand opinions that are fueling lively banter. Unfortunately many have not had the experience due to availability of the these amps in the wild. But I am curious, what say you??

John Petrucci, one of the most visible Mark IIC+ fans, is a fan of the HRG, which is exactly why his JP-2C amp was based on that. I honestly would be surprised it he had any interest in the reissue, given that it's not his favorite version, and he already pretty much had his ideal settings and sound put into the JP-2C.

Is it truly a "reissue"? It also depends on what you want a "reissue" to be, or more correctly, what the buying public wants it to be. Often a "re-creation" is not what they want. These are the people that forget that companies like Gibson and Fender were always BUSINESSES, who were always looking for more efficient and cost effective ways to make things. A big bone of contention out there is what type of glues were used to make Gibson guitars in the 1950s and 1960s.

"Of course it had to be hide glue, that's what high end luthier's prefer!" Yes, show me the "high end luthiers" working at the Gibson FACTORY during the 1950s. The same type of thinking applies to people who want reissues for amps: they want the ideal amp that they envision in their head, regardless of how they were actually made.

 

[zacinnc78]

We want a NOS 2c+replicated to the most minute detail (dont we ?)

 

[Jamme1961]

If it’s not good - there will be a lot of returns- at $3500 I’ll be returning it if it’s not right- l love to see a gut shot that would tell us a lot.

 

[Fiveband]

If the IIC+ isn't right, it will kill the sales on the Recto as well.

 

[rarebitusa]

A big bone of contention out there is what type of glues were used to make Gibson guitars in the 1950s and 1960s.

FWIW and we shouldn't digress on this thread BUT since you mentioned LP reissues I think Gibson can keep that thing going by coming up with some other improvement or more authentic formulation for the plastic or the dye whatever. Marketing it as even more authentic then the ones before. Personally I'm not panning the somewhat meaningless component differentiation Gibson comes up with LP RIs these days as some folks are really into it.

It also depends on what you want a "reissue" to be, or more correctly, what the buying public wants it to be.

The LP RI IMHO is a really nice, top of the line LP with the historic vibe. I've had my bouts of GAS with them, however their success in the marketplace cannot be overlooked and there are certainly different segments of buying public that have their own take on why they would get one.

I do think the Mesa RIs are addressing a market opportunity and the early adopters of them will have alot of impact on how successful they are.

 

[bandit2013]

There were many folks that dissected the JP2C for what it is not. It is not a IIC+ HRG, well Duh, look at the controls on the front panel, is that not enough to see what is missing? I believe there was only one GEQ on the HRG model. I do not recall any midi or cab clone on the originals. Let alone the guts did not look like this:

I may never have owned or played through an original IIC+ and at their going prices I doubt I ever will. Sure, I had a Mark III DRG combo, I do have some regrets selling it off back in 2012. I am over it. I bought into the JP2C for what it was and not for what it was not. Not a dream theater follower, actually never heard of John Petrucci before the JP2C was announced. I bet he is a cool dude, and watching some of his videos on the subject and other things he has done, he has my respect. Thanks to his efforts and working with Mesa we get a fine amp to use. Get the right power tubes in this amp and it just rips. I bought mine in 2016 after they did the roach mod (you can see the added parts to the gain pot in the bottom left of the image) as it had something to do with the send level of the clean channel in the FX loop. I believe the marketing hype centered around that it is a Reissue.

And YES, it’s a MARK IIC+! A next generation Re-Issue of the legendary amp so many Recording Artists, MESA enthusiasts and Tone Freaks the world over covet, often searching high and low to find. Only THIS IIC+ pulls in an enhanced feature set born from our collaboration with John over a period of three decades of research and development.

I can say it does sound good and is a keeper for me anyways.

If you can read and understand what it is you are looking at when it comes to the chicken scratch of the older designs to something more readable of recent designs in the Mark Line up. The heart and soul of the IIC+ circuity still present. Sure, with tweaks and changes of this and that in hopes to redefine the next generation Mark amp. The Mark V90 was a bit of a stretch in some ways to include other features either loved or hated by owners of the amp. It is just an evolution of an amp first built in the 80's. The first 4 gain stages minus a volume 1 pot right off of the tone stack to drive V1B stage. Most of the major mods occurred on the back end of the amp, the exception to this was the Mark V. The JP2C did bring back some of that classic circuitry but with a modern approach due to LDRs and transformers. It was a good starting point for the next best thing, the Mark VII. sure it has its characteristic issues with different signal levels in the FX loop as some have discovered. The kitchen sink was still added into the mix much like it was with the mark V, but at least all modes are great. Not enough emphasis on the IIC+ or IV modes as that is only on one channel. I can say one thing that the Mark VII is another killer amp.

Considering the short print of specs I would speculate that the output section is based on the Mark VII in many ways, and it does deliver that sound so I would expect the IIC+ IR to be on similar footing. It is not that far off of the JP2C when comparing the IIC+ mode. Just revise the preamp section to the original design and you will get what they promise. It will have the appearance of the IIC+ on the outside until you look at the back and see all 6L6GC tubes. Layout may also be a bit different. I would assume to meet requirements it has a removable power cord like most Mesa amps these days. Just take out all of the relays that alter most of the signal paths and control connections and it is not hard to realize it is possible to recreate the IIC+. Getting it to sound authentic is the harder part and I have faith that Mesa engineers can pull it off. Not sure why Randall never wanted to go back to an iconic amp. We will find out soon enough if Mesa delivered their promise and will it pay tribute to an amp that most of us cannot afford. After 40 years since the IIC+ amps rolled out, I would not expect an exact replica of the original in terms of nuts and bolts, boards, wires, etc. But I will expect the same quality of sound and build that Mesa has provided with their amps. OK, I am being optimistic here as I committed to buying one of these amps. It may just be my last amp I buy for some time to come. Prices just keep going up and I am tired of spending money. If they do a reissue on the Road King I may not be able to resist the urge but will hold off and wait and see what others say about it.

 

[bandit2013]

The second thing I will probably do after playing through the IIC+ RI for the first time is to get some pictures of the innards. My curiosity does get the best of me at times.

From the IIC+ to the Mark IVB, the outer pair of tubes have been the "Extended Class A push-pull" positions. I know, Mesa shortened that to Class A for simplicity. Whereas the center was reserved for the Class AB positions as this made it easy to disconnect the cathode to ground circuit. Mark V rearranged the power section and moved the Class A to the center spots. Perhaps that was a better layout for the 10W power mode (Class A single ended by running one tube in parallel (AB tube) and the other class A as a ballast to prevent damage to the OT windings. Mark VII kept the arrangement the same with the Class A as the center pair. It is all push-pull and does not use a single ended Class A power mode. Sort of wonder if the IIC+ RI will have the Class A as the outer pair as it would simplify the design keeping the AB in the center. I doubt it will make any difference though.

I was looking through some pictures, I went through the trouble of pulling the chassis but never got the transformer part numbers from either JP2C or the Mark VII. The chassis is a PITA to get out and a bit more difficult to get back in, so I doubt I will do that unless I am inspired to do it again. Once was enough.

The wait is the hardest part. It will come someday I assume. Hopefully not when Sweetwater first indicated in late March. That was before they had the IIC+ RI listed on their site with preorder and not just getting placed on a name list having to wait for the next batch to arrive. Time will tell and the wait continues. Considering how many distributors there are, it may take a while to get one.

 

[bandit2013]

Just for S&Gs, I went to the facebook clubs and looked at many comments on the IIC+ reissue. Been a while since I used facebook. So much this and that and complaints and what not. Do the dials have the same textured feel of the original? Come-on, that is funny. I think the GAS would be a bit more fueled up with a hardwood enclosure with a wicker face or perhaps a hardwood face plate. But that adds unnecessary costs and does not make it sound any better than the stock version. Not so sure on the combo amps though as the resonance of the cabinet would be different than Baltic Birch plywood. (I would assume the baffle the speaker mounts onto is made of plywood).

My point to this story is simple, try not to go into a frenzy to get one immediately. Especially if you have a limited edition JP2C and have the GAS for this recreation and need to sell it to get the reissue. Perhaps you do not like having to remove the chassis to change the preamp tubes as it appears the face plate is not removable. I can see that. Just remember the regret of selling it to obtain something else as the purchase price to get another limited edition may be more than what you sold yours for. This IIC+ reissue is not a limited production run like the Mark I reissue was. The JP2C limited edition is done, there will not be any more of those either.

Wait for the Reissue IIC+ to make its waves and then make the decision to sell your gear to get one. Sure, it will be difficult to obtain it for a while as most go into panic mode to get the next best thing. I personally do not need it, but I do want one. I can wait. It is usually that time you get the notice it shipped to the endless day it is supposed to arrive that becomes the issue.

 

[rarebitusa]

Wait for the Reissue IIC+ to make its waves and then make the decision to sell your gear to get one.

Sell??? Don't sell just buy

 

[bandit2013]

I had a few random thoughts about this subject content. I originally posted something of bad taste, my humor is not always appreciated. So I deleted it.

Instead, I wanted to share some thoughts on the subject matter. When were the seeds planted as the rumor mill on a IIC+ reissue has been stirring for a long time, not sure if before the JP2C was announced and released or sometime after the Mark I reissue came to light.

Would that not be a strategic marketing tool? Plant a few seeds here and there to see what blooms from it? More or less a tease of the prototype hidden in plain sight but yet obscured from total view. That is what CEO of Gibson has done based on other comments about the leaks. In other words, was the leak intentional or was it just a mistake?

So, what is the IIC+? Based on searches, there were only 1499 ever made between 1983 and 1985. In other words it was a limited run so that does add to its value along with its characteristic tones. Only 56 Coliseum 300 models were made. 180W / 75W. Never said I was an expert on the subject matter. Never knew the Series 300 started with the II. Curious to learn more, how many HRG, DRG, SRG or those with no frills like the H, D or S assuming you could order it without a reverb or GEQ. As it seems the IIC+ came out when the Mark III was near its release phase which explains why there were only 14 months of production of the IIC+ and then the IIC++ not to mention the conversions of the IIC and IIB that followed. As for rack gear, trying to find information on the Coliseum versions, there was the Mesa Coliseum 300 power amp but instead of a single array of 6 tubes, it had 12. So it was a 2 channel 400W beast. Now that is stereo power, too much for my needs as I have found out how loud 4 amps in a row makes for a wall of sound. My hearing will never be the same.

So the one thought I had is more of a "what if" thing. Considering the investment to get a IIC+ original or one of its siblings like a IIC++ or the like, what if the IIC+ reissue turns out to be better than the originals?

At least this was written in better taste than what I had posted in this spot. Sorry for that if you saw it.

 

[soundbee]

drained

The original simulclass amps allowed for a mix of 6L6 and EL34 at the same time and that contributes to the famous sound. Are these modern versions not really the OG simulclass if they are 6L6-only?

I thought only later III’s and IV’s allowed for the mixed power tube types. Not the II’s ..? And the V mentioned it in earlier manuals but then removed it for some reason.