Recto gain saturation

[94Tremoverb]

I don't agree at all. Just because you have an attenuator doesn't mean that you must crank up the power stage fully. You can use it as an extra master volume to allow you to just get the normal master volume up into the range where it sounds good - the power amp doesn't have to overdrive. I find attenuators work better with master volume amps, because you can balance the amount of preamp distortion to power amp compression, and they're less fussy about which amps work best with which attenuators if you do that too. They all do usually sound sh!t when used to turn a big *non* master volume amp into a bedroom practice amp though.

 

[Cleekster]

IMO...hot plates sound like sh!t with rectos :?

+1

Amps designed to run with a dirty preamp and clean poweramp do not jive with a hotplate.

and what exactly gives you the impression that a recto was intended to be run with a clean power section? just because it has 5 stages of preamp gain shouldn't autamatically lead you to that conclusion.

in the early mark series manuals it does talk about turning the master to 2.5 but i think that was more them trying to show people who would just assume to crank it on "10" that it had more possibilities than any other amp at the time but unfortunately guitar players took it in a whole other direction.

I called Mesa once about something else and asked them about this and i was told that Randall is adamant that EVERY boogie sounds good cranked and turned down and that one of the reasons they prefer 6L6's is that unlike EL34's which have a finite amount of gain, a 6L6 will continue to distort until you can no longer turn up the master(output) anymore.

personally i don't use any preamp drive:
vintage mode
gain@ 8:30
master@12:00
output@3:00
solo@5:30
I'll put my amp up against any non-master amp anyday.

Not trying to bust you balls or anything.... just my $.02

 

[mikey383]

IMO...hot plates sound like sh!t with rectos :?

+1

Amps designed to run with a dirty preamp and clean poweramp do not jive with a hotplate.

and what exactly gives you the impression that a recto was intended to be run with a clean power section? just because it has 5 stages of preamp gain shouldn't autamatically lead you to that conclusion.

in the early mark series manuals it does talk about turning the master to 2.5 but i think that was more them trying to show people who would just assume to crank it on "10" that it had more possibilities than any other amp at the time but unfortunately guitar players took it in a whole other direction.

I called Mesa once about something else and asked them about this and i was told that Randall is adamant that EVERY boogie sounds good cranked and turned down and that one of the reasons they prefer 6L6's is that unlike EL34's which have a finite amount of gain, a 6L6 will continue to distort until you can no longer turn up the master(output) anymore.

personally i don't use any preamp drive:
vintage mode
gain@ 8:30
master@12:00
output@3:00
solo@5:30
I'll put my amp up against any non-master amp anyday.

Not trying to bust you balls or anything.... just my $.02

What makes me think that is the fact that I used a THD Hotplate and cranked the power section into heavy distortion and everywhere in between, and there wasn't one usable sound in distorting the power section. It's a flubby, mushy, blob.

Clean power section on a Recto FTW.

May sound good on other lower gain Mesas though.

 

[b0nkersx]

What makes me think that is the fact that I used a THD Hotplate and cranked the power section into heavy distortion and everywhere in between, and there wasn't one usable sound in distorting the power section. It's a flubby, mushy, blob.

+1 again. I used a Hot Plate, turned down the gain, and cranked the power section. There were definitely some cool sounds in there on the lower gain channels (1 and 2 on a Road King, raw and vintage weren't bad either with the gain almost off, but I only really use modern on ch 3 and 4), but still not what I'm into. Then I turned up the gain with a cranked power section, and it sounded like ass everywhere.

I'm not sure what kind of tone you like, but I go for balls to the walls metal. I agree that less gain and more volume always sounds better, but I never drop my gain below noon (except on clean channels with a high output guitar).

Just because you have an attenuator doesn't mean that you must crank up the power stage fully.

Fair point, but if you're not going to bother, then dropping a few hundred on an attenuator to find bedroom metal tones with a recto is kind of crass.. it won't get you any more GOOD gain saturation, which is what the OP is looking for. You're better off IMO spending less money for a Line 6 combo (hotplate is almost 350, cheaper line 6 combos can be had for around 100). It's really not going to make a recto sound that much better in a bedroom regardless, especially when searching for low volume metal tones.

If all you do is bedroom metal tones in the first place, I really don't think buying a 100W (or even a 50W) tube amp is going to satisfy you to the point where you honestly feel like you got what you paid for. I'm willing to bet some serious dough that bermuda_ has had some pretty significant buyers remorse since he's purchased his recto.

If I only ever played in my bedroom and could not crank it up in there, I'd sell the amp. There are plenty of amplifiers that do low volume metal tones better. When I lived with a roommate, I ran a Keeley modded Metal Zone into a Fender Blues Jr. The whole thing cost about $600, and the bedroom metal tones were stellar. I mean, if you really needed to buy a car, and the only driving you did was to the grocery store 5 minutes away, would you spend $20,000 on a race car or $5000 on some used car that runs nicely?

 

[Cleekster]

What makes me think that is the fact that I used a THD Hotplate and cranked the power section into heavy distortion and everywhere in between, and there wasn't one usable sound in distorting the power section. It's a flubby, mushy, blob.

Clean power section on a Recto FTW.

May sound good on other lower gain Mesas though.[/quote]



Perhap's some clarification on my part is in order......i run my mids at around 2;30 and my amp goes into both a 1x12 and 2x12 3/4 back with C90's and i NEVER run the gain past 9;00 even when the volume is really low as i feel the tone is too indistinct and mushy as you say. the only time i've ever had problems with overdriving the power section is when i was running mesa tubes(flubby and mushy pretty well describe it.)....I will agree though that the modern mode sounds like hammered sh!t with a cranked power section.

anyway...back on topic......

 

[volatileNoise]

Just thought I might add since having owned both a single and dual recto, neither amp sounded overly great at lower bedroom type levels, in fact the single recto required to be played just as loud as the dual to sound relatively good! I believe this to be because with the 4 x 12 cab, the speakers still have to be pushed to a certain level to sound good right???

I have found that a good tone can be pulled if you want to tweak it at lower levels, but alas, get on stage with those same settings but at loud levels, and your tone becomes rather messy... With my experience anyway...

I might add that I have found that at loud stage levels, the Dual holds it together much better at gig levels than the Single recto, tone wise, but I agree with many that the Single does go well loud even so!

 

[YellowJacket]

Just thought I might add since having owned both a single and dual recto, neither amp sounded overly great at lower bedroom type levels, in fact the single recto required to be played just as loud as the dual to sound relatively good! I believe this to be because with the 4 x 12 cab, the speakers still have to be pushed to a certain level to sound good right???

Ya, I think that is totally the problem. The v30s are a tight speaker which sound pretty constipated unless they have a lot of power through them, at which point they ROAR!
I suggest using the 100watt Marshall 1960ax or ac cab with the Greenbacks. They sound much better for bedroom playing and you don't need to crank the amp up as much to get a huge sound. The speakers are lower sensitivity which sucks some power too. The downside is that when gigging, you need two of the cabs to keep them from farting out. Also, they are creamier which isn't quite so appropriate for metal! It is also possible to get a 2x12 for bedroom playing but man, why does one get a halfstack unless there is gigging involved. I am seriously considering unloading my 4 x 12 because I have no use for it. If I ever end up in a band and start touring, I'll just buy another.

 

[94Tremoverb]

"Fair point, but if you're not going to bother, then dropping a few hundred on an attenuator to find bedroom metal tones with a recto is kind of crass.. it won't get you any more GOOD gain saturation, which is what the OP is looking for. You're better off IMO spending less money for a Line 6 combo (hotplate is almost 350, cheaper line 6 combos can be had for around 100). It's really not going to make a recto sound that much better in a bedroom regardless, especially when searching for low volume metal tones. "

That's where I don't agree. I *know* buying an attenuator is a boatload of money to spend for a fairly small improvement, but to me a Line6 just sounds like sh!t at any volume, in any situation and just because it's cheaper doesn't make it the best solution.

To me, the best solution is to use all the tools available with a tube amp to make it sound great at low volume - which if necessary means pedals to boost the input and attenuators to cut the output. I can get better tones at lower volume by using an attenuator than without, even though I don't crank up the power stage into distortion. I also get better tones with big amps turned right down than little ones turned up, for very low volume - which I know is counterintuitive but it seems to work that way for me. Small amps are great for getting true cranked-up tones at moderate gig volume or for recording, but even a 5W amp is still far too loud for bedroom practice and it will end up with the same compromises as the big amp, but without the big transformers, multiple power tubes and big speaker cabs to give it the bandwidth and thump you need for heavy tones.

I don't even think the OP has the wrong amp, just that you need to work at it quite hard to get what you want at low volume... but the results are still better than getting some cheap amp because it cost less than a decent pedal or an attenuator.

 

[volatileNoise]

Just thought I might add since having owned both a single and dual recto, neither amp sounded overly great at lower bedroom type levels, in fact the single recto required to be played just as loud as the dual to sound relatively good! I believe this to be because with the 4 x 12 cab, the speakers still have to be pushed to a certain level to sound good right???

Ya, I think that is totally the problem. The v30s are a tight speaker which sound pretty constipated unless they have a lot of power through them, at which point they ROAR!
I suggest using the 100watt Marshall 1960ax or ac cab with the Greenbacks. They sound much better for bedroom playing and you don't need to crank the amp up as much to get a huge sound. The speakers are lower sensitivity which sucks some power too. The downside is that when gigging, you need two of the cabs to keep them from farting out. Also, they are creamier which isn't quite so appropriate for metal! It is also possible to get a 2x12 for bedroom playing but man, why does one get a halfstack unless there is gigging involved. I am seriously considering unloading my 4 x 12 because I have no use for it. If I ever end up in a band and start touring, I'll just buy another.

Yeah I bought my rig solely on the fact that I use it for gigs, or would have been better off with a little combo amp or something... I will also say that last time we were in the studio we tried the Dual through a 1960A cab, and I have to say, what a piece of junk they are, in comparison with the Mesa cab anyway, I always felt that paying the price for a Mesa cab was a bit crazy, but that was proof that you can't go past the Mesa cabinets either...

 

[b0nkersx]

"That's where I don't agree. I *know* buying an attenuator is a boatload of money to spend for a fairly small improvement, but to me a Line6 just sounds like sh!t at any volume, in any situation and just because it's cheaper doesn't make it the best solution.

I agree with you for the most part about what you're saying, but there's just one thing. I'm only commenting on attenuators in this specific situation (with bermuda_ and his desires).

The OP wants more gain saturation, not a "cranked tone," and he doesn't want to boost the amp.

Buying an attenuator to create more gain with a recto is just asking for buyers remorse. It works nicely with other amps that take well to power tube distortion, still. A new recto runs for about $1800 and a Hot Plate is about $330. I think bermuda_ would be infinitely better off with a Peavey 5150/6505 or an ENGL Powerball, both of which cost less than a DR + Hot Plate. Hell, you can get used 5150 combos for around $400, only slightly more than the price of the Hot Plate.

I know it's important to work with your amplifier, but bermuda_ has not made one post indicating that he is happy with his amplifier. And honestly, his complaints are pretty much the same complaints of every guitar player that doesn't like rectos. Might as well cut your losses and sell it at that point instead of dumping more money into it trying to make it something you think it should be. I mean, I personally don't have problems with tightness or saturation when I play, but I think that's just my setup/how I play, but bermuda_ isn't me/doesn't have my playing style/guitars.

 

[94Tremoverb]

Hmmm... I think you're right .

 

[bermuda_]

I really think that inexperience comes into play here, I'm still trying to understand how tube amp functions, also I have never been to a metal gig before, so I don't know how good tube amps sound when there cranked up live.

But all I know is that when play my Recto with the channel master at about 9 O'clock, the sound coming from the speakers of the amp starts to open up a bit, but any lower than this the amp sounds thin and muddy, even with the presence knob on the amp turned up to 9 O'clock.

Now when it comes to gain on my Recto, I noticed that If the gain knob is set is any lower than 2 O'clock, the amp simply doesn't provide me with enough gain to play metal covers unless of course I use an overdrive pedal to boost the amp, which does tighten up the overall sound of the amp, but without it, I feel the amp struggles in the gain department side of things, which found to be quite annoying, seeing as The Recto is considered to be high gain amp, which to my ears I find hard to believe, seeing as even with the gain knob on the amp set to 12 O'clock, It still doesn't give me enough to gain so that I can cover Slayer covers, or any other thrash metal bands out there for that matter.

Even my younger brother who's a pretty good guitarists thinks that the Recto sucks, Most of the time when I'm playing my Recto with the gain set to 12 O'clock if my brother hears it he always tells me to turn the gain knob up more on the amp, because the amount of gain coming from the amp sounds at with gain at this setting sounds weak and this is coming from a guitarist who's plays more rock covers than metal ones. So I have reached a conclusion guys.

Maybe there's something wrong with my amp?

 

[b0nkersx]

Now when it comes to gain on my Recto, I noticed that If the gain knob is set is any lower than 2 O'clock, the amp simply doesn't provide me with enough gain to play metal

Then why don't you just leave the gain at 2 o'clock? I really don't think I understand your problem. Sometimes I push it up to 3 o'clock with EMGs (EMGs are pretty quiet/low output) and leave it around 12 only with high output passives.

 

[Jerrick]

Yeah, I have my gain up around 2:00 and im loving it. The louder I have my amp the lower the gain needs to be.

 

[94Tremoverb]

This is what I don't get either... the gain knob doesn't just go to 2 o'clock, it goes to 5 o'clock. If you don't have enough gain and the knob is not all the way up, *turn it up*. The knobs are given wide ranges for a reason, and unlike a lot of cheaper amps the Mesa gain range doesn't run out when the knob gets above halfway. There's significantly more gain between 4 and 5 o'clock, even. Likewise, why would you only run the presence knob at 9 o'clock or below? If you need more presence at low volume, *turn it up*. Second, if that really still isn't enough gain, *use the pedal*. It's not wrong to use a pedal with any amp, that's what they're for - it doesn't matter if the amp cost $200 or $2000. The Dual Rectifier is not actually an extremely high gain amp by modern standards - it was when it came out, but that was a long time ago and others have raised the bar further. I actually think my old Dual Caliber had slightly more. Finally, if you are having the problem with the 'step' in the MV response, then you could benefit from an attenuator. That's exactly why I use one. You *don't* need to crank the amp up all the way with it.

This is *not* like a Line6 or a Marshall MG - it doesn't have the same processed sound at different volumes, it changes as it gets louder. Forget about the knob settings - you have to listen to it and adjust it to get what you want, and all the controls are interactive, especially around the point the power stage just starts to open up - a tiny bit more volume and you'll need to re-adjust a lot of other things. This is not a fault, but it is part of the reason a lot of players put down Rectifiers and Mesa amps in general (and other amps) - they require more care in setting up and finely dialing in. It's no different to learning how to play guitar, you have to listen to what comes out and adjust what you put in.

 

[Jerrick]

This is what I don't get either... the gain knob doesn't just go to 2 o'clock, it goes to 5 o'clock. If you don't have enough gain and the knob is not all the way up, *turn it up*. The knobs are given wide ranges for a reason, and unlike a lot of cheaper amps the Mesa gain range doesn't run out when the knob gets above halfway. There's significantly more gain between 4 and 5 o'clock, even. Likewise, why would you only run the presence knob at 9 o'clock or below? If you need more presence at low volume, *turn it up*. Second, if that really still isn't enough gain, *use the pedal*. It's not wrong to use a pedal with any amp, that's what they're for - it doesn't matter if the amp cost $200 or $2000. The Dual Rectifier is not actually an extremely high gain amp by modern standards - it was when it came out, but that was a long time ago and others have raised the bar further. I actually think my old Dual Caliber had slightly more. Finally, if you are having the problem with the 'step' in the MV response, then you could benefit from an attenuator. That's exactly why I use one. You *don't* need to crank the amp up all the way with it.

This is *not* like a Line6 or a Marshall MG - it doesn't have the same processed sound at different volumes, it changes as it gets louder. Forget about the knob settings - you have to listen to it and adjust it to get what you want, and all the controls are interactive, especially around the point the power stage just starts to open up - a tiny bit more volume and you'll need to re-adjust a lot of other things. This is not a fault, but it is part of the reason a lot of players put down Rectifiers and Mesa amps in general (and other amps) - they require more care in setting up and finely dialing in. It's no different to learning how to play guitar, you have to listen to what comes out and adjust what you put in.

Exactly. That what I dont get sometimes on this forum. So many people have the thought that this and that knob go here, sliders like this, and that's just how it is. If it sounds bad like that, dont change the knobs, it must be something else. lol

I dont mind posting my settings, cause it can give a reference point for someone else, and they can take it from there.

On my clean channel, I have the presence off, and I think the mids are really low. But it sounds amazing. Im sure others who adjust with their eyes would never set it up like that, but going by ear, you can end up all over. If it sounds good, then that is what matters, but the numbers and how it compares to the numbers on line.

I have my gain set at 2:00 because it sounds great. Sometimes im dropped down to an A and I play lots of styles, and at 2:00 its more than enough gain, even for the heaviest of sounds. Plus I remember reading in the manual that I should crank my gain all the way up for some tube and reliability issues, which im sure arent to harmful for the amp, it just happens that with my guitar and way of playing 2:00 is just perfect.

 

[Heritage Softail]

I really think that inexperience comes into play here.

Even my younger brother who's a pretty good guitarists thinks that the Recto sucks, Most of the time when I'm playing my Recto with the gain set to 12 O'clock if my brother hears it he always tells me to turn the gain knob up more on the amp, because the amount of gain coming from the amp sounds at with gain at this setting sounds weak and this is coming from a guitarist who's plays more rock covers than metal ones. So I have reached a conclusion guys.

Maybe there's something wrong with my amp?

Three quick observations:

Even my brother thinks the Recto sucks. That is the main item. Honestly, if you think the sound coming out of it sucks, it is probably the player, not the amp. Millions of people get great sounds out of a Rec. It is not the amp for everyone, but it is not a bad amp. You have to get the amp that fits you. Blaming equipment for poor playing is a trap. Record yourself playing, do some clean and distorted. It will be brutally clear if it is your playing or the amp is crap. If it is the amp, repairs are in order, if it is your, it is just time and effort to get better.

The Peavey 6505 is a beast. I have played the 1x12 combo and it is an awesome heavy dark metal in your face amp for only $599. It sounds like what you may want. It is super popular with the younger players.

If I dont feel the 'vibe' with the amp, I won't play as well. It will feel flat. How can you get excited about playing when you think your amp sucks? Life is short, keep learning new things and get an amp you like straight out of the box. The Guitar Center here has a used 5150 fo $300. You could get the amp you like for the cost of a Hot Plate.

 

[mikey383]

Maybe there's something wrong with my amp?

There definitely is.

It's not the amp you're looking for. You don't like it, there isn't anything anyone here can say to make you like it, it's not the amp for you.

Really, you've made umpteen posts about how to get more gain out of it. It comes down to two things....either boost it, or turn the gain up.

If those don't work, sell it and get something else.

 

[volatileNoise]

Maybe there's something wrong with my amp?

There definitely is.

It's not the amp you're looking for. You don't like it, there isn't anything anyone here can say to make you like it, it's not the amp for you.

Really, you've made umpteen posts about how to get more gain out of it. It comes down to two things....either boost it, or turn the gain up.

If those don't work, sell it and get something else.

I do agree to an extent, though I kinda don't agree either...


bermuda_ can you tell me what guitar you got plugged into this amp?

I must say if your settings are where they are at as first listed in your initial post, that those settings aren't really great, I know my rig would sound average with those settings...

Sounds like the sound you are wanting could equate to a few things not adding up to achieving your desired sound, so my guess is that the amp is not the entire problem, my guess is guitar and tone settings...

Having said that, my Mesa has mostly only ever blown me away with the output up around 'noon' at a decent size gig...

 

[bermuda_]

The guitar I'm currently using is a schecter C1 Plus FR guitar, it has a mahogany wood body guitar, with Duncan Designed active pickups inserted in the guitars neck and bridge pickups, which in there own right are not ideal sounding pickups.

Also I know that people are still wondering why I haven't uploaded any clips of me playing my amp yet, I will try to upload some clips soon, But in order to do that I still have yet to buy a microphone, so that I can record the sound of my amp through it.

But anyway after experimenting today, with the EQ settings my amp, I have come to the conclusion that my amp only starts to sound good when the master volume is cranked above the 9 o'clock range, any lower that range and the amp sounds awfully thin sounding especially the gain, but having said that I think it's safe to say that by even by having the gain knob on the amp at 12 o'clock regardless of how loud the master on the amp is turned up it's never going to give you enough gain saturation to play metal, I'e Metallica One would be a good example to use.