Realistic hazards of using ungrounded/unconditioned power?

[wastoid]

I was reading through the Roadster manual and it occured to me that every manual for everything electronic I have since I can remember has always specified that you should use clean and well-grounded power. My question is, how bad is it if the power fluctuates and is poorly grounded?

I would assume the worst thing that could happen is you could get somehow electrocuted and die, which I think has happen to a few people on stage before when they touched their mics while holding an ungrounded guitar. After that, maybe your amp could be fried?

Do any of you have any personal horror stories you could share with respect to using dirty or ungrounded power?

I'm just wondering because the power at my house is pretty bad and I don't really trust power in clubs either. I'm sort of wondering if some of those furman power conditioners or w/e are more of a necessity than a luxury.

 

[Monsta-Tone]

I've been an electrician for 20 years. I've also been an Audio/Video guy for 12 of those.

There is a huge debate as to whether or not Power Coditioners actually work.



Here is what I think:
The super cheap ones are simply places to plug things in with a surge supppressor.

The medium priced ones like the upper end Furmans and middle of the road Panamax or Monster are really decent. You can get one for around $400 that will make your power stay at a relatively constant 120 volts, and provide decent protection.

The higher priced ones like the Grey's are simply way too expensive unless you have a $200,000 Home Theater. $4,000 for a power conditioner seems extreme to me, but people pay for them, so they keep selling them.


Here is a great model that I have used countless times in places that have only 112 volts on a good day: http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=24000&i=299M5300PM&search=panamax&tp=568

Here is a more affordable one with similar protection: http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=24000&i=299M5100PM&search=panamax&tp=568



To answer your question:
You can get shocked pretty badly.
Your amp can really get damaged.
Never plug into an ungrounded outlet unless you absolutely have to, and even then, try to find a grounded plug somewhere. Any club should have grounded power, but some Fire Marshalls and Inspectors just plain don't do their jobs, and some club owners just plain suck ***!

 

[Don]

All of my guitar amps, even the new ones, show at least some potential to ground on my VOM if run without a proper ground.

 

[Kaz]

This sucks, but my house is so old there are few grounded outlets at all except in the garage.

 

[AustinK]

How do you tell if an outlet is grounded? Also how do i know if there is good power?

I thought that the circle pin on the bottom was the ground.

 

[Monsta-Tone]

I use a $10 tool called a Plug Tester. It has 3 lights on it that will tell you if the plug is wired correctly. You can get these at any hardware store in the Electrical section.

Just because a plug has 3 holes in it, does not mean that it is grounded. It simply means that the plug itself has been changed if it is an older building.



I always have a plug tester in my little duffle bag. It won't tell you if the voltage is low, but it will definitely tell you if the plug has a ground and if the polarity is correct.

Here is a great little kit for any beginner electrician or just making sure that you are plugging into good power.

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=205783-72068-TK-30&lpage=none

The Meter is ok for general use. I use Fluke meters, but they are much more expensive. The Greenlee stuff is light to medium duty and should hold up for years if you are just checking plugs at venues.

I do use this Plug Tester and a similar "Non-Contact" tester (the funny looking pen thing with a yellow tip).

The Plug Tester is perfect for the really quick test.
The Non-Contact tester is perfect for seeing if an extension cord is still hot or plugged in.
The Meter is perfect for making sure that the proper voltage is present.


I basically used the plug tester. If it was fine, then I plugged in. If things sounded funny, then I got the Meter out of the truck.

 

[fishyfishfish]

A big plus 1 on what Monsta-Tone said. My whole bands stage set up was accidently plugged in to 220 from a generator at an outdoor show. Whole racks of amps crossovers and E.q.'s went up in smoke, along with most of our stuff. Our Keyboard Player (Who is an electrician as well) was just about to plug his new Motif in when things went poof. I am absolutely certain all of this could of been avoided with a $20.00 voltage tester.
As far as checking grounds, our old guitar player was shocked so bad from touching a mic, he was knocked to the ground with his lower lip split open. From now on, we all check everything before we plug in, period!

 

[Monsta-Tone]

We played a gig at a shitty old house on the beach in Maui. There was no ground anywhere. Everytime I tried to sing, the mic would shock the hell out of me.

I finally pulled a McGyver and ripped my shirt sleeves off and held them on the mic with a hair tie. :lol: :lol: :lol:

It really hurt though. I always played barefooted, even in clubs, until I started reading about people dying from it. The floor is always wet, and the power sucks. That's a bad combination.



Even a $20 meter can save your *** and your gear. I highly recommend it.



Did you guys have insurance Fishy?

 

[fishyfishfish]

Yes, every thing was covered 'sept a lap top. The funny thing is that the Keyboard player and I have over forty tears combined construction/industrial experience, and never once thought of pulling out a meter before plugging in that day. Just a good and expensive example of what can happen when you "***-U-ME"

 

[Don]

I do use this Plug Tester and a similar "Non-Contact" tester (the funny looking pen thing with a yellow tip).

The Plug Tester is perfect for the really quick test.
The Non-Contact tester is perfect for seeing if an extension cord is still hot or plugged in.

I have both of those in my guitar case. I've been playing for almost 30 years and used mostly old Fender amps that didn't have a separate ground for most of those years.
I used a non contact tester all of that time.

I still use it and an outlet tester everwhere I go.

The last time that I got a jolt from an amp it was plugged into a power strip that looked good but had an open ground!

As far as playing at home is concerned, my house didn't have grounded outlets either, but there was a ground in most of the outlet boxes. I repaired or rewired them all.

 

[wastoid]

Great info guys. I had never thought to pickup a voltage/ground tester. I had my main room in my house rewired with properly shielded and grounded power but in the front room, where I frequently play my, it's still the shitty hardware adapter thing that you screw on and *hope* the screw lead goes to ground.

It seems like a lot of people don't really take this too seriously until it's too late. The Meas manual hazards you to use grounded/clean power, but they don't really say all the ways you can get screwed without it. Hopefully some folks will read this thread and not die or have their gear die.

And I might look into one of those Furman conditioners then. I don't have a rack yet so I'll have to get that. The scary thing is that once I get a rack started, my ability to keep myself from purchasing other fancy rack units will slowly weaken! (BBE sonic maximizer and TC G major come to mind!)

btw, sorry this topic is slightly off from the "Modern Amp" section but it didn't seem to really fit nicely anywhere else.

 

[AustinK]

very cool I will definetly have to pick up that package when my band start to play gigs this summer.

But how would you check the voltage with the multi meter. I have used them before on circuits in physics class but how would you check an outlet?

 

[Dead Moon Rising]

don't lift the 3rd prong either. i see people do it all the time. if something blows and a supply line touches the chassis, that ground line will cause a short and pop the breaker or fuse. if you lift it and get a short that chassis will be electrified. i've worked on 1000w amps that have +/- 150vdc in which you DON'T want ot get zapped with!

 

[Kaz]

don't lift the 3rd prong either. i see people do it all the time. if something blows and a supply line touches the chassis, that ground line will cause a short and pop the breaker or fuse. if you lift it and get a short that chassis will be electrified. i've worked on 1000w amps that have +/- 150vdc in which you DON'T want ot get zapped with!

What's your recommendation for places we can't find a grounded outlet?

 

[MojoFilter]

I've been using this unit for quite some time:

Some of the places where I gig have wiring that probably hasn't been updated for 50-70 years, and I have no intention on letting my gear go up in flames! This just gives a little extra protection.

 

[Dead Moon Rising]

don't lift the 3rd prong either. i see people do it all the time. if something blows and a supply line touches the chassis, that ground line will cause a short and pop the breaker or fuse. if you lift it and get a short that chassis will be electrified. i've worked on 1000w amps that have +/- 150vdc in which you DON'T want ot get zapped with!

What's your recommendation for places we can't find a grounded outlet?

You can still use it, I was talking about worst-case scenario.

 

[Kaz]

Yah I ask because are local 'best' venue here is a place that was built in the 40s and only God knows what kinda electricals they're running over there. I mean, it must be pretty decent since we've got a full, professional lighting setup, but the building is OLLLD....

 

[Monsta-Tone]

That's the really crappy thing. If you are booked somewhere and there is no ground, you are sort of stuck unless you have enough weight to through around and get your way.

I've never tried it, but most of my amps are old enough to have a Ground Switch.

If you are getting shocked by the mic, you might try changing the Ground Switch setting. I don't know that it would help though.



OTH: If you're an Electrician, you might just get some work out of it. :lol:

 

[Don]

What's your recommendation for places we can't find a grounded outlet?

Often, the outlet box is grounded and an adapter will connect to the ground if you screw it to the outlet. Test it with an outlet tester when doing this.

 

[CGM]

I've been following this thread and now have the same concerns. I just played a large outdoor gig where power was an issue. I thought my regular power strips would protect my amps. Well, nothing happened but now I'm affraid something could. I don't rack any thing but I suppose I could just set it on the floor behind the amps or on top of the amps ...right? will the lower priced ( $180-$250) conditioners/strips do a good job, or do I need to spend more ( $400- up )? This is probably my next purchase but I don't want to overspend as I am saving for a LSC, but I do want the protection for my LSS combo and my big Fender. Do they make floor versions or is that even an issue. Man...just when you thought it was safe to go out....