Not much gain in my 2 channel triple

[Tone1026]

So it seems i have to crank the gain all the way up to get any saturation, anything between 12-3 oclock on the gain is flubby... normal?
same on both channels.

jj12ax7 preamps (Not high gain)
jj6l6 power tubes all new..

 

[stephen sawall]

Very difficult to tell from here .... wish you luck with it.

 

[domct203]

So it seems i have to crank the gain all the way up to get any saturation, anything between 12-3 oclock on the gain is flubby... normal?
same on both channels.

jj12ax7 preamps (Not high gain)
jj6l6 power tubes all new..

How was it before you changed tubes?

Anything else change (pickups/guitar, cables, etc)?

What are your channel settings?

Silicon Diode or Tube rectifier?

What do you mean by "saturation"? What quality is missing from your tone (dynamics, sustain, compression, overdrive etc)?

Between 12-3 o'clock the Red Channel should be pretty saturated with OD, to the point that the EQ will get less and less effective because there is so much harmonic content.

JJ 12AX7/ECC83's tend to be a "darker" sounding tube, and can add to the lo-mid mud. I highly recommend you try a Tung-Sol reissue 12AX7 in V1, they are a very clear sounding tube, a little on the bright side but the JJ in V2 & V3 will smooth that out.

Good luck, I hope this helps.

Dom

 

[Tone1026]

So it seems i have to crank the gain all the way up to get any saturation, anything between 12-3 oclock on the gain is flubby... normal?
same on both channels.

jj12ax7 preamps (Not high gain)
jj6l6 power tubes all new..

How was it before you changed tubes?

Anything else change (pickups/guitar, cables, etc)?

What are your channel settings?

Silicon Diode or Tube rectifier?

What do you mean by "saturation"? What quality is missing from your tone (dynamics, sustain, compression, overdrive etc)?

Between 12-3 o'clock the Red Channel should be pretty saturated with OD, to the point that the EQ will get less and less effective because there is so much harmonic content.

JJ 12AX7/ECC83's tend to be a "darker" sounding tube, and can add to the lo-mid mud. I highly recommend you try a Tung-Sol reissue 12AX7 in V1, they are a very clear sounding tube, a little on the bright side but the JJ in V2 & V3 will smooth that out.

Good luck, I hope this helps.

Dom

same with the tubes i had before (el34 442, spaxs, 5u4g)

no other changes, though my pickups might not be the greatest. epiphone les paul 7 string, stock pickups..

basically i have to scoop the mids, crank the treble, and presence i think i leave on about 10, bass 11:30,

diodes

overdrive, "sizzle" seems to drop out of the picture as volume increases..

I AM used to running a processor... I run the preamp, od, and noise suppresor normally sounds great on clean orange to modern, so that may be effecting my judgement.( Maybe my processor is making up for LAME pickups... not sure)

But i would like to see what this thing can do running direct. I have heard great things about this amp, but I have yet to hear great things come out of it running it direct..

Switching to bold made it a little more agressive.. but not enough. It seems like i shouldn't have to crank the gain all the way up to get this level of saturation/sizzle/overdrive...

I have tried running my processor w/ overdrive pedal gain on 0 in addition to red channel w/ gain cranked, and it seemed better fro what im looking for, so myabe a high gain preamp tube might make the difference??

 

[ryjan]

Is this a new amp for you or have you had it a while and it is having a problem?

 

[Tone1026]

Is this a new amp for you or have you had it a while and it is having a problem?

New amp to me, never owned one before, so i have nothing to go off..

 

[YellowJacket]

Ok, I'm probably stating the obvious here but if you have terrible pickups why not change them for better ones instead of trying to go for a bandaid solution?

https://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/main/pickups.php?cat=humbuckers These things sound open, clear, and very thick. I love my Rebel Yells although I'd recommend something hotter and more aggressive for metal.

There are many factors that affect tone so lets walk through everything.

Your guitar produces the sound. The string vibrate and the construction of the instrument impacts how the strings vibrate and for how long. The guitar is the 'singer' and the pickup is the 'mic' -Paul Reid Smith.
So the next item in your signal chain is the pickup. This creates the tone that the amp then shapes and amplifies. If the guitar doesn't sound particularly great and the pickup also sounds muddy, you're SOL! The Epiphone probably sounds decent so a good pickup can help things immensely.

Do consider the sort of pick you use. I love a soft pick for rock and blues but for heavier styles, a hard pick will give the power and control necessary to get a phat and heavy sound. Your picking hand creates your tone so don't wimp out.

Next is electronics. The electrical signal travels from the pickups through your tone controls to your guitar patch cable. Changing your pots (potentiometers) and caps (capacitors) can have a fairly drastic impact on tone. This is because change the stock 300K tone pots to 500k tone and volume pots will allow more highs through which will give a brighter and more aggressive 'ballsy' sound in a good way. There is some debate about Paper in Oil vs Ceramic Disc capacitors colouring tone. I noticed a huge difference when I upgraded my electronics in my Les Paul and my Godin LG but it was because I upgraded everything at once.

Patch cable. The electrical signal then travels down the patch cable to the amplifier. There is some debate on which cables sound best but it is safe to say that a bad cable will introduce noise and reduce the signal strength. Consider that the electrical impulse from a guitar is pretty weak.

Guitar amp:
Dialing in the a tone is some work and this does factor into the sort of tone you hear.
Tubes are important. I'd say the power tubes and the 12ax7 in v1 is also really important. If the tube is on the fritz, it can cause the sound to be loose and muddy. I had a tube in v1 once that made my cleans sound bloated and terrible even though it worked well with the crunch tones. (This is because each preamp tube has two circuits in it)
1) can you turn the amp up? At bedroom volumes, the amp will respond and sound different than it does at stage volumes.
2) The tone controls on a Mesa are interactive so they don't work like an EQ on a stereo.
Setting the gain knob has a huge effect on the overall tone while the treble is also very powerful. The idea is to turn the gain up high enough to get some saturation but not to crank it so much that the notes begin to flub out. The more gain you have, the phatter the bottom end is on the amp. Huge lows really are not desirable for any technical rhythmic sort of music. (i.e. metal)
Turning the treble up brightens the sound of the amp but also reduces the amount of signal passed to the other tone controls. Turning the treble down increases the amount of signal passed to the other tone controls which makes them more effective.
While turning the mids down gives a very scooped tone, turning the mids up will make the amp track faster and tighter, while making it cut better. It adds a lot of punch, especially for weaker pickups.
Bass is the flub control. Turn left to tighten up your tone.
Presence. Adding presence dials back in a different band of high end. It 'polishes off' the overall tone and it can add gain and hair to the sound when cranked. It can also sound fizzy, which some people hate.

Speaker lead. DO NOT USE A PATCH CABLE FOR THIS. A speaker lead is designed to handle the high wattage from the back of a tube amp. A good speaker lead will help prevent any misshaps that may disconnect your tube amp from the speakers and prevent damage.

Cab / speakers. Lastly, what cab and speakers are you running? This is terribly important. A crappy cab and speakers is half your guitar amp. If the head is good, you can't use that to compensate for a crappy cab. A good starting point is a Mesa Standard 4 x 12 rectocab or a Mesa Traditional 4 x 12 rectocab. The amp was designed with these boxes in mind so you can get an idea of 'how' mesa wanted the amp to sound. I tend to dislike loose speakers that 'break up' with Mesa amps since they can add needless mud to high gain tones. Mesa tends to like a more transparent sounding speaker and they let the amp create the tone.

For starts, definitely consider your pickups, cables, cab, and speakers. The problem could be any one of those things. Rectos sound pretty sick which is why they sell so well.

A sample setting with the 'modern high gain' setting on the Red Channel of a 2 Channel Dual. This is for a very saturated metal tone for playing a style that relies on a lot of single note riffs and not terribly much chording except for 2 note power chords. I wouldn't use these settings for a less extreme style.

Les Paul Standard with Bare Knuckle Rebel Yells CTS 500K pots 0.15uf PIO caps through a shielded patch cable. Mesa tubes into a Royal Atlantic 27" 1 x 12 extension cab.

Gain 2:30
Treble 10:30 (I turned the treble down to get more mids in my sound)
Mids 1:30
Bass 11:00 (Although it could be lower, especially at higher volumes)
Presence 1:00 (This adds back in the high end and really increases the thickness and hair of the tone. It sound much more gainy this way)

TL;DR
I hope this helps :evil:

 

[ryjan]

Is this a new amp for you or have you had it a while and it is having a problem?

New amp to me, never owned one before, so i have nothing to go off..

I gotcha. If you are used to solid state or very saturated amps like a 6505 then the Recto is going to take some getting used to. Try keeping all the knobs between 10:00-2:00 and just jam on it for a few days until you start to feel how a Recto likes to be played. I know that sounds weird but after you get to know this amp you'll understand.

 

[nocluejimbo]

Definitely check out the recommended settings in the manual first: http://www.mesaboogie.com/manuals/2chRecto.pdf

 

[ryjan]

Definitely check out the recommended settings in the manual first: http://www.mesaboogie.com/manuals/2chRecto.pdf

^^This for sure^^
And +1 to what Yellow Jacket posted also. My only caveat is that tubes, pickups, speakers, etc will typically only provide a small change in what you get out of your rig. Your playing style will make the most drastic differences in the perceived tone.
Those are pretty broad brush strokes but more often than not this is what I have found.
Just play the crap outta that amp until you two come to an understanding. :lol:

 

[YellowJacket]

Definitely check out the recommended settings in the manual first: http://www.mesaboogie.com/manuals/2chRecto.pdf

^^This for sure^^
And +1 to what Yellow Jacket posted also. My only caveat is that tubes, pickups, speakers, etc will typically only provide a small change in what you get out of your rig. Your playing style will make the most drastic differences in the perceived tone.
Those are pretty broad brush strokes but more often than not this is what I have found.
Just play the crap outta that amp until you two come to an understanding. :lol:

Ha! Tone is in the fingers for sure. I think what I really like about boogies is how dynamic and responsive they are to touch. Wimpy playing = wimpy sound while aggressive playing = aggressive sound. Responsiveness and dynamics are ultimately what help us to make music.
I know rectos are 'compressed' compared to vintage blues amps but in the realm of high gain, they are really responsive and musical. In fact, the very things I like about my Electra Dyne for Blues and Rock are the very things I like about the recto for extreme styles like metal.

That being said, awful pickups, an awful cabinet, and awful speakers won't help the situation at all. Neither will crappy or old tubes. At the high end, all these things are merely different flavours and they don't do much, but upgrading from entry level equipment to pro caliber stuff will make all the difference in tone. I remember using my recto for a backline at a concert and some kid had this no name strat knockoff he plugged into it. The pickups were so wimpy they could barely drive the amp. We had the gain dimed on Modern High Gain and it was barely starting to clip when, without skipping a beat, the kid proclaimed the amp a piece of sh!t and plugged in a pedal to use with it. "No, dumb kid. Your GUITAR sucks."

 

[ryjan]

Definitely check out the recommended settings in the manual first: http://www.mesaboogie.com/manuals/2chRecto.pdf

^^This for sure^^
And +1 to what Yellow Jacket posted also. My only caveat is that tubes, pickups, speakers, etc will typically only provide a small change in what you get out of your rig. Your playing style will make the most drastic differences in the perceived tone.
Those are pretty broad brush strokes but more often than not this is what I have found.
Just play the crap outta that amp until you two come to an understanding. :lol:

Ha! Tone is in the fingers for sure. I think what I really like about boogies is how dynamic and responsive they are to touch. Wimpy playing = wimpy sound while aggressive playing = aggressive sound. Responsiveness and dynamics are ultimately what help us to make music.
I know rectos are 'compressed' compared to vintage blues amps but in the realm of high gain, they are really responsive and musical. In fact, the very things I like about my Electra Dyne for Blues and Rock are the very things I like about the recto for extreme styles like metal.

That being said, awful pickups, an awful cabinet, and awful speakers won't help the situation at all. Neither will crappy or old tubes. At the high end, all these things are merely different flavours and they don't do much, but upgrading from entry level equipment to pro caliber stuff will make all the difference in tone. I remember using my recto for a backline at a concert and some kid had this no name strat knockoff he plugged into it. The pickups were so wimpy they could barely drive the amp. We had the gain dimed on Modern High Gain and it was barely starting to clip when, without skipping a beat, the kid proclaimed the amp a piece of sh!t and plugged in a pedal to use with it. "No, dumb kid. Your GUITAR sucks."

Hence my "broad brush" comment. :wink: I was assuming middle of the road quality in respect to guitars and cabs.
I just got the same response from my brother in law when he came over last weekend to play my new Roadster. He picks like a little girl petting a butterfly so needless to say it sounded weak even through an ESP loaded with EMG 81's and the gain at 3:00.
His response was, "your amp's a POS. You shoulda bought a Blackstar." :lol:
I just shrugged and said that this amp really works for me. I picked up the same guitar he played and turned the gain down to 1:00. After I ran through a couple Metallica and Iron Maiden riffs with all the fury a recto can throw down he had a few questions about picking. 8)

 

[Tone1026]

The cab is a mesa 3/4 back 4x12 w/ blackshadow 90w. The amp is a BEAST in orange to modern clean w/ my pedal running through it. With the gain at 10 and the master at 9 it HAMMERS.

In modern red, i have used the sample setting molten red i believe from the mesa manual, and also tried increasing the gain. i would say that setting is "chunky". probably just not what im used to.

I will say this.... i listened to both recorded, and direct actually sounded better. It feels way flubby though... It feels like the kind of gain you would want for a quieter chunky part...

I use low tunings which may also be a factor.

My pick-ups again are just whatever stock pick-ups they put in the epiphone les paul 7 string. I know a like minded friend that has a mesa 3ch trip and he doesn't like the direct dist. either. So it may just be a preference thing.

Maybe I should go somewhere that has trip rec's n' guitars and try some new ones to have something to compare to.. (though i know 3 channels are different than 2 channels)

 

[Tone1026]

What pickups should i consider for my seven string epi. LP?

 

[YellowJacket]

Hmmm, you may not be a fan of the tone? Rectos definitely sound much more 'chunky' than they do saturated, if that makes sense. Still, they can get plenty thick and aggressive.


[edit] While I think of it, you said the power tubes are new. What about the preamp tubes? How old are those? They may be worth checking, especially v1. My Dual Rectifier doesn't get flubby and over saturated until the gain is around 3:00 or more on the Red Channel. Turning down the treble and bass and turning up the mids and presence really thickens up the tone. I've been looking at preamp tubes and the go tube for v1 for rectos is the Tung Sol 12ax7. That's the one everyone talks about.



Did you come from a solid state amp? Technique does affect tone in a big way.

Cabs: Definitely audition the Mesa Standard and Traditional 4 x 12 rectocabs with the v30s. You may like them more. But not a big deal.

I'd focus on the guitar for now. You really like super low tunings with a 7 string? Maybe consider an 8 string baritone guitar with a longer neck? Strictly 7 makes instruments like this for that really modern tone.
Super low tunings either means 1) low tension on strings or 2) much heavier strings. With heavier strings you get a lot more bass with much less of an emphasis on mids, where ball crushing distortion is.

Of course, a weak pickup also causes a lot less bite and saturation. Have you checked out some of Fluff's videos with his Dual Recto? He gets a SICK tone out of it by boosting the thing with an OD808 or whatever he has hanging around. (He was playing a DVMark triple six last I checked but I'm sure he's moved onto a different amp by now)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC0GDZFcFvU

So, my thoughts: I'm guessing you're into metal in which case I'd suggest investing in a new guitar at some point in the near future. The pickups / electronics I'd recommend would set you back somewhere around $450 (Not including the cost of install) and that is probably close to equivalent to the value of that guitar. I'm sure a good LTD 7 string wouldn't cost more than about double that and it would come stock with much better pickups and electronics.

IF you're attached to the Les Paul, I'd suggest looking at Bare Knuckle pickups. For Les Paul style guitars, anything that mitigates the low end is usually a very successful option. The Epiphone probably isn't as bass heavy as a Gibson USA Les Paul though.

Painkiller
https://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/main/pickups.php?cat=humbuckers&sub=contemporary&pickup=painkiller

My Bare Knuckle Picks are: The Aftermath
https://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/main/pickups.php?cat=humbuckers&sub=contemporary&pickup=aftermath

Less so the Nailbomb
https://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/main/pickups.php?cat=humbuckers&sub=contemporary&pickup=nailbomb

Of course there is always the tried and true combination of Liquifier neck and Crunch Lab bridge from DiMarzio or something similar from Seymour Duncan.
http://www.seymourduncan.com/artists/our_artists/87

My friend has a Dimebag Darrell signature pickup in his Jackson and it has a tonne of output. REALLY hot. It might not pair well with a Les Paul style guitar though.

I know some guys around here really like the Duncan Blackouts or even EMGs are another option, if you want to go with the extra hot output of an active.

Again, consider any upgrades to an Epiphone to be a stopgap solution. You'll probably want a tool (axe) that is specifically suited to what you do, assuming my massive pile of assumptions are even correct. If you wish to seek out another amp, there are plenty of other good options. If you want some ideas, ask away.

 

[Tone1026]

Hmmm, you may not be a fan of the tone? Rectos definitely sound much more 'chunky' than they do saturated, if that makes sense. Still, they can get plenty thick and aggressive.

Well the direct distorted tone, not yet. It may grow on me. I do think the thing sounds amazing running my pedal through it...

Did you come from a solid state amp? Technique does affect tone in a big way.

I don't even want to say what i came from amp wise... :roll: But my distortion tone has always come from the pedal.

So, my thoughts: I'm guessing you're into metal in which case I'd suggest investing in a new guitar at some point in the near future. The pickups / electronics I'd recommend would set you back somewhere around $450 (Not including the cost of install) and that is probably close to equivalent to the value of that guitar. I'm sure a good LTD 7 string wouldn't cost more than about double that and it would come stock with much better pickups and electronics

Well i only use the bridge pickup, so it would only be 1 pickup, and 2 pots the rythm channel i use primarily for a killswitch. Im not opposed to having 2 diff pickups for now... The don't need to match. I do like the Les, i have thought of picking up a gutair, possibly a MM se baritone prs ($650).

[edit] While I think of it, you said the power tubes are new. What about the preamp tubes? How old are those? They may be worth checking, especially v1. My Dual Rectifier doesn't get flubby and over saturated until the gain is around 3:00 or more on the Red Channel. Turning down the treble and bass and turning up the mids and presence really thickens up the tone. I've been looking at preamp tubes and the go tube for v1 for rectos is the Tung Sol 12ax7. That's the one everyone talks about.

Preamp tubes are brand new, complete retube like a moth ago. jj12ax7. i have heard of using high gain jj's... maybe a tung sol in v1 and 2 high gain jj's for v2&v3?

 

[YellowJacket]

Well the direct distorted tone, not yet. It may grow on me. I do think the thing sounds amazing running my pedal through it...

Changing the bridge pickup will help a lot but...

I don't even want to say what i came from amp wise... :roll: But my distortion tone has always come from the pedal.

So the truth comes out. The amp is far more dynamic than a pedal. With a pedal, you get a very similar sound no matter how you attack the strings of the guitar. With the amp, you'll want to use a hard pick for heavy sounds and get used to how your pick attack affects the sound you hear. The defining feature of a tube amp is that it is dynamic i.e. you play gently and you get FAR less distortion and saturation than if you play with a heavy hand. 90% of tone is in the fingers so it is possible that you are hearing sloppy or undeveloped technique.

As an experiment, I had 3 different guitarists play through my Dual Rec. They all used the same instrument and the same settings but each person's tone was decidedly different. I heard classic rock, hard rock, and even metal. It was an eye opening moment. The amp really allows the 'sound' of the player to shine through.

Well i only use the bridge pickup, so it would only be 1 pickup, and 2 pots the rythm channel i use primarily for a killswitch. Im not opposed to having 2 diff pickups for now... The don't need to match. I do like the Les, i have thought of picking up a gutair, possibly a MM se baritone prs ($650).

Hey, then it is probably worth it to swap the bridge pickup for a really good one. I think the Aftermath or the Pain killer are both good options for you. Listen to the clips and see which you like better. You can always shoot BKP an email and see what they recommend. I particularly like BKP because their pickups sound very 'clear' as opposed to Duncans which sound 'thick'. Duncans are great for amps that need more thickness but in my experience, Mesas always require more clarity.

There is also the option for boosting: Using something like a Maxon OD808 as a clean boost can give a lot more tightness and saturation. This is a pedal designed to be used with a tube amp.

Preamp tubes are brand new, complete retube like a moth ago. jj12ax7. i have heard of using high gain jj's... maybe a tung sol in v1 and 2 high gain jj's for v2&v3?

Have you tried 'rolling' the tubes? I'm guessing you don't have spares which would make it impossible to roll tubes but you should ALWAYS have spare tubes and fuses on hand in case of a failure. Tubes are like light bulbs and they will work for quite some time and then all of a sudden, they quit.
Rolling tubes is the process of swapping tubes out of each position until you find the one that sounds the best in that position. So start with v1 to find the quietest and best sounding tube for that position. Since it is the first tube, you want one that is not noisy.

I'm going to try a Tung Sol at some point but everything is working for now and I needed to swap a couple of tubes on another amp so the funds were consumed in that.


Lastly, it isn't a bad idea to try some other tube amps to get an idea of what is out there. I'm guessing you didn't shop much before acquiring this piece.
The Peavey 6505 or any ENGL are pretty much the go to heads specifically for metal and there are others. (Apparently a Bogner Uberschall is incredible but also a lot of $$$$$$$$s) The Recto is far more versatile and is more of a rock / hard rock amp than a metal amp, even if it will do metal.

 

[Tone1026]

I plan on sticking with the amp. I have swapped tubes around a little. new Pickup sound like a winner
Again this thing sounds MASSIVE with my pedal running through it, just wanted to experiment with the direct tone.

 

[YellowJacket]

Yes, a new pickups and electronics will make quite a noticeable difference. (I think 500K pots and 0.15uf caps will be best. Pots aren't so much $$$ so do all four of them for the $50 some odd dollars it is. I'd get 500K CTS Audio Taper Pots. You may find you eventually want a good neck pickup for solos and cleans) Also, think about boosting as well. A clean boost designed for a tube amp will really tighten and thicken things up.

 

[Tone1026]

With the amp, you'll want to use a hard pick for heavy sounds and get used to how your pick attack affects the sound you hear. The defining feature of a tube amp is that it is dynamic i.e. you play gently and you get FAR less distortion and saturation than if you play with a heavy hand. 90% of tone is in the fingers so it is possible that you are hearing sloppy or undeveloped technique.

i use Jim dunlap jazz 3. Much less than that wouldn't budge my 068 ga string..
It's just simply not as much gain as i am used to.