Need help playing live...

[Vogelsong]

I posted this in the recording section also, but it doesn't look like it gets much attention so I thought I would post here also.

Im using a mark V with my worship team at church. I use strictly 90watts through a 2x12 rec. cab.

I use my amp as my monitor as it sits right behind me, and then it's mic'd to the board.

The problem is the sound guys always want me turned down, but even standing in front of it I can barely hear it at times through the stage volume. Even when Im playing leads and solo's they want me down.

The other problem is the sounds guys, aren't musicians. The music admin. and I are both now wondering if they know what the terms lead guitar, and solo mean or what they are supposed to sound like. I know in this aspect you can't help me.

But today I was told to turn down which I did. They said I was too loud on an intro, but it was only me and an acoustic playing. So I turned down, and when the part of the song came up where I was to play a solo, everyone else ramped up and I got buried. Completely lost my guitar in the mix with my amp literally 2' behind me. The stage volume at that point just buried me.

This has been going on for months and its getting frustrating.
They're good people but at this frustration level Im beginning to lose interest.

 

[yeti]

maybe get your cabinet up on a chair, and that will enable you to hear yourself better, therefore, enabling you to turn down.

or, figure out a way to tilt it back and then the sound goes up, not out front.

a good technique i used to use for small venues was to sidewash my cabinet....aim it sideways so the sound fires across the stage...and let the soundguy do whatever he's going to do out front.

set your solo boost for solos WHILE the band is playing that part... and try running all your channels in 10 watt.


go out front at rehearsal and check the overall stage volume. im not necessarily talking about the PA volume, but what it sounds like out front near the stage, level wise. adjust accordingly

make friends with the soundguy!!

 

[thunder100]

Your sound-engineers could be bad,but you dont know how it sounds in the church itself.Depending on mic position of your amp for the PA still for PA it maybe too loud so you also could move the mic.

I have played in many churches (over here in Europe) and some are accoustically very special.So usually I asked my bandmate(and vice/versa) to play my gear to hear the real sound at the rehersal in the audience.

On the "I dont hear myself"-->which may not be the case for the audience-->wedging up the cab mostly helped.A straight line from the center of the amp to your ears tended to be good while others prefere that the bass hits their knees which sometimes get a bit lost in the mix

Roland

 

[Boognoob]

And get him to give you a monitor.... And have him turn you up in it....!!

 

[Rkorn]

Have that same problem almost everytime we play, being in a big or small venue.
Use 45w... why do you need 90 in church? its not like you will need agression in ch3.
I don't think any MesaBoogie has entered a church in Portugal... And i believe it will never will.

 

[Vogelsong]

Have that same problem almost everytime we play, being in a big or small venue.
Use 45w... why do you need 90 in church? its not like you will need agression in ch3.
I don't think any MesaBoogie has entered a church in Portugal... And i believe it will never will.

Believe it or not with some of the more contemporary christian music out there the some of the high gain lead sounds channel 3 produces is very appropriate. Plus the music admin. likes it. As far as 90watts, I use it mostly for the clean head room in channel 1. So just to keep things simple I run them all there. But in all honesty its not that loud, output at 9:30 and masters starting at channel 1 at 12 10 10.

 

[SBG200]

A few options for hearing yourself live:

1. Get your speaker(s) aimed squarely at your head.

2. Aim your amp backwards or sideways on the stage. But beware, sidewashing can blow away your band if you do it wrong.

3. If you're mic'd then you're monitored as well. Turn yourself up in the monitors. In this event you can also get a plexiglass shield or some sort of sound baffle to block the beam coming out of your speakers.

4. Volume pedal in the loop. This gives you some flexibility for staying out front in a band that doesn't know how to control their volume. However this may come at the expense of tone (I posted about this in the random Mark V chat thread).

Good luck.

 

[lesterpaul]

sounds like the problem is not you...its the "engineers"
-changing to 45 or 10 watt isn't going to help the volume issue(as you already know...its more of a headroom/feel thing)...
-do you have a wireless?I have one...just use it for soundcheck purposes to experience it myself-this will hellp your troubleshooting, along with some of the other responses here
-keep us posted

 

[CHATTERBOX]

3. Volume pedal in the loop. This gives you some flexibility for staying out front in a band that doesn't know how to control their volume.


For the love of God, leave your volume pedals at home! You think your sound guy has issues with you now!....LOL!
+1 for aiming your speakers at your head. If possible move your speakers to the back of the stage, as far away as possible from you. You wont' have to tip your speakers as much and you will get a better sense of the sound the audience is getting.

 

[thalweg]

Not sure if I interpret your first post correctly...but the real fix is not changing anything you're doing.

The sound engineers have no clue how to balance the stage and house PA and likely have the mindset that the PA does all the work. Most newbie engineers see it that way... Its not your fault but theirs. The key is to persuade the board guy to use the stage sound as part of the mix. Things don't have to be super quiet on stage for it to sound good out in the house.

In fact, the best method to get quality sound in a live environment is to turn the PA off...MIX the stage sound first...so everyone has nice even balance and is comfortable with the volumes, presence etc.....remember...the PA works for the band...the band doesn't work for the PA.

Else, If you want to avoid confrontation...get in ear monitors and hope for the best.

 

[Vogelsong]

Not sure if I interpret your first post correctly...but the real fix is not changing anything you're doing.

The sound engineers have no clue how to balance the stage and house PA and likely have the mindset that the PA does all the work. Most newbie engineers see it that way... Its not your fault but theirs. The key is to persuade the board guy to use the stage sound as part of the mix. Things don't have to be super quiet on stage for it to sound good out in the house.

In fact, the best method to get quality sound in a live environment is to turn the PA off...MIX the stage sound first...so everyone has nice even balance and is comfortable with the volumes, presence etc.....remember...the PA works for the band...the band doesn't work for the PA.

Else, If you want to avoid confrontation...get in ear monitors and hope for the best.

Thanks, I'll be trying to implement this over the next few weeks.

 

[ifailedshapes]

.....remember...the PA works for the band...the band doesn't work for the PA.

I don't agree with this statement at all. Neither works for the other; they work together. I don't know how your church is setup, but our worship leader has authority over the sound booth as well. We are one team working for one common goal. As soon as you start to see yourself as one team, and not just two separate entities, your entire experience will improve.

On another note, if your amp is directly behind you, you aren't going to hear it very well, but people 10-20 feet away from you will be overwhelmed by it. Guitar speakers produce a beam of sound, and if your monitoring situation requires you to use the amp as a monitor, you're pretty much screwed if your ears aren't in that beam. As others have said, the best solution is to aim the speaker cabinet towards the ceiling because this will aim the beam towards your ears and away from the rest of the congregation.

 

[thalweg]

.....remember...the PA works for the band...the band doesn't work for the PA.

I don't agree with this statement at all. Neither works for the other; they work together. I don't know how your church is setup, but our worship leader has authority over the sound booth as well. We are one team working for one common goal. As soon as you start to see yourself as one team, and not just two separate entities, your entire experience will improve.

On another note, if your amp is directly behind you, you aren't going to hear it very well, but people 10-20 feet away from you will be overwhelmed by it. Guitar speakers produce a beam of sound, and if your monitoring situation requires you to use the amp as a monitor, you're pretty much screwed if your ears aren't in that beam. As others have said, the best solution is to aim the speaker cabinet towards the ceiling because this will aim the beam towards your ears and away from the rest of the congregation.

You misinterpret my point. I wasn't referring to the personal interactions. I was referring to the technical aspects of live performance engineering in smaller venues where stage sound has a huge impact on the external PA sound. In other words, don't craft the stage sound for the PA sound. Craft the PA sound for the stage sound. I would rarely if ever opine on the personal interactions amongst the group...who am I to know whether they are stark raving lunatics?

 

[ifailedshapes]

I see what you're saying, and I'm not talking about personal interactions. I'm just saying that it becomes less daunting when you stop separating the two and see it as one cohesive unit. The ultimate goal is a balanced sound in the room, and yes, both stage and PA play a part in that sound.

I'm a musician first and a techie second, and I wholeheartedly agree with the philosophy of keeping stage sound to a minimum. I've been in too many situations where one person can't hear themselves, so they turn up, which causes everybody else to turn up, and the end result is a bunch of noise on stage. As someone said (and it may have been you), the ultimate solution is in-ears, but that's a very costly setup. My church uses an Aviom system, but that's not in the budget for most churches.

 

[thalweg]

I see what you're saying, and I'm not talking about personal interactions. I'm just saying that it becomes less daunting when you stop separating the two and see it as one cohesive unit. The ultimate goal is a balanced sound in the room, and yes, both stage and PA play a part in that sound.

I'm a musician first and a techie second, and I wholeheartedly agree with the philosophy of keeping stage sound to a minimum. I've been in too many situations where one person can't hear themselves, so they turn up, which causes everybody else to turn up, and the end result is a bunch of noise on stage. As someone said (and it may have been you), the ultimate solution is in-ears, but that's a very costly setup. My church uses an Aviom system, but that's not in the budget for most churches.

That's a good point and it does make sense. Can't argue that balance is key. However, I suppose I was just reinforcing how neglected "stage sound" gets in the grand scheme of things. Far to often the focal point is whats coming out of the PA when everyone should step back and consider the source more often.

The board guy always jumps to the conclusion that the stage sound is too loud or fields complaints that its too unbalanced...what does he do?...tells everyone to quiet down then goes to the PA to try to "fix it in the mix". Musicians can't really hear themselves, there's no power or groove to the music cause it sounds like a big ball of mush up there, musicians aren't having fun\not feeling it, so the music suffers and it all comes out of the PA as a big ball of crap. Board guy thinks its the ROOM or some dumb *** compression setting or eq setting tries to fix it...makes it worse then the vicious cycle starts again. Even if he had the perfect PA settings for that room...its would still sound like crap.

For all sound guys at live performances who are just starting out or who think they know what they are doing. First thing you do...is turn the **** PA off..and get the band "STAGE" sound rocking...don't even think of powering up the board until the Band can go through a few numbers and they acoustically sound reallly good ON THE STAGE...not at the front of the house...not in the lobby....right on the stage.

Then fire up the board...your job will be 100000% easier I guarantee it!

 

[Vogelsong]

I see what you're saying, and I'm not talking about personal interactions. I'm just saying that it becomes less daunting when you stop separating the two and see it as one cohesive unit. The ultimate goal is a balanced sound in the room, and yes, both stage and PA play a part in that sound.

I'm a musician first and a techie second, and I wholeheartedly agree with the philosophy of keeping stage sound to a minimum. I've been in too many situations where one person can't hear themselves, so they turn up, which causes everybody else to turn up, and the end result is a bunch of noise on stage. As someone said (and it may have been you), the ultimate solution is in-ears, but that's a very costly setup. My church uses an Aviom system, but that's not in the budget for most churches.

That's a good point and it does make sense. Can't argue that balance is key. However, I suppose I was just reinforcing how neglected "stage sound" gets in the grand scheme of things. Far to often the focal point is whats coming out of the PA when everyone should step back and consider the source more often.

The board guy always jumps to the conclusion that the stage sound is too loud or fields complaints that its too unbalanced...what does he do?...tells everyone to quiet down then goes to the PA to try to "fix it in the mix". Musicians can't really hear themselves, there's no power or groove to the music cause it sounds like a big ball of mush up there, musicians aren't having fun\not feeling it, so the music suffers and it all comes out of the PA as a big ball of crap. Board guy thinks its the ROOM or some dumb *** compression setting or eq setting tries to fix it...makes it worse then the vicious cycle starts again. Even if he had the perfect PA settings for that room...its would still sound like crap.

For all sound guys at live performances who are just starting out or who think they know what they are doing. First thing you do...is turn the **** PA off..and get the band "STAGE" sound rocking...don't even think of powering up the board until the Band can go through a few numbers and they acoustically sound reallly good ON THE STAGE...not at the front of the house...not in the lobby....right on the stage.

Then fire up the board...your job will be 100000% easier I guarantee it!

The only problem I see here is that Im the only electric guitar, playing with two acoustics, a electric bass, keys and drums. So when the board goes off were never going to here the acoustics on stage so I don't see how that will get to a point where everyone will be happy. And we can then as you say turn the board on. Or do you mean to do this with the monitors on also?

 

[thalweg]

Yes of course. Everything used on stage for stage sound..stage monitors included.

the premise is simple. The most important element in any live performance is that the band can hear themselves extremely well. A great sounding stage will, in the right hands, translate into even greater sounding house. I don't know about your experience...but mine is to experience far to often, Mics get setup things plugged in and then sound guy starts grabbing a hand load of faders and tweaks the house first. Then musicians complain and as an afterthought start adjusting monitors. Always adjust the monitoring situation and stage sound first...

 

[yeti]

.....remember...the PA works for the band...the band doesn't work for the PA.

I don't agree with this statement at all. Neither works for the other; they work together. I don't know how your church is setup, but our worship leader has authority over the sound booth as well. We are one team working for one common goal. As soon as you start to see yourself as one team, and not just two separate entities, your entire experience will improve.

On another note, if your amp is directly behind you, you aren't going to hear it very well, but people 10-20 feet away from you will be overwhelmed by it. Guitar speakers produce a beam of sound, and if your monitoring situation requires you to use the amp as a monitor, you're pretty much screwed if your ears aren't in that beam. As others have said, the best solution is to aim the speaker cabinet towards the ceiling because this will aim the beam towards your ears and away from the rest of the congregation.

You misinterpret my point. I wasn't referring to the personal interactions. I was referring to the technical aspects of live performance engineering in smaller venues where stage sound has a huge impact on the external PA sound. In other words, don't craft the stage sound for the PA sound. Craft the PA sound for the stage sound. I would rarely if ever opine on the personal interactions amongst the group...who am I to know whether they are stark raving lunatics?

exactly. getting a room level when practicing is key...and on stage, before soundchecking, again, a stage level is key. obviously, a good drummer might be just that, but a great drummer knows that he dooesn't need to play balls to the wall full out all the time.

im thinking especially in a church?

 

[yeti]

Yes of course. Everything used on stage for stage sound..stage monitors included.

the premise is simple. The most important element in any live performance is that the band can hear themselves extremely well. A great sounding stage will, in the right hands, translate into even greater sounding house. I don't know about your experience...but mine is to experience far to often, Mics get setup things plugged in and then sound guy starts grabbing a hand load of faders and tweaks the house first. Then musicians complain and as an afterthought start adjusting monitors. Always adjust the monitoring situation and stage sound first...

a prime example of this is live tv. year after year, show after show, you watch these acclaimed entertainers performing, and sounding like total garbage...out of key, out of place...disconnected....and, i ***** to my wife about it ALL the time that the sound guys aren't doing the job correctly...or some snot nosed kid with a clipboard is complaining that the bands are too loud in the big empty room during rehearsals.

the ONE exception i've seen recently, was this most recent grammies.. MOST of the performers actually sounded good.

i remember thinking in the past "ugh, i cant listen to this, it hurts my 'inner key' ". but i always tried to give the benefit of the doubt because knowing and keeping in mind: it all boils down to the soundguy, providing you have proficient performers that know the parts, know their gear and the singers can sing.

and, the whole time, EVERY time, EVERY soundguy will freakin tell you " i run the sound, let me handle the way it sounds". it's an ego thing. most soundmen i have worked with, warm up to you if you approach them the right way...some will only do the right thing for an extra 20 or 50 bux. and others, no matter what, screw you over with "opening band" syndrome sound.

they all think they have the power of God. in reality, on a local, small level its more like = no jackoff. you turn knobs based on what? you bought some big speakers, and a rane compressor, a bunch of crown power, a crossover and some junk from behringer....all squashed at the endpoint before sending to poweramps thru a dual channel 31 band eq that you dont even know how to use. i cant imagine what dealing with national house soundguys and self important types that got a gig doing the grammies cause they took a music appreciation course in the midst of their business degree studies and have no real world music experience beyond "i tell you what to do".

it's imperative that you make friends with the soundguy, and in the least, implement the "stage level check with monitors" before, as was said, to the board being even powered up.


</end rant!>

 

[Vogelsong]

I over heard a conversation today but I didn't hear all of it.

What does it mean when a needle is getting into the red on the board?