More Mark 2c+ vs Mark III vs 50 Caliber+ questions/commentary

[kingtone2017]

Sorry about the length! I have good coffee!

Hi, I just jumped into the forum after being away from it for many years so I hope these questions are not beaten to death too badly...(I did do some searching btw)

I had a Mark III green stripe a good many years ago, when I used to be on here, and I liked it quite a bit but for whatever reason it left the fold, as did some other nice pieces. Regretted that ever since. And now they are about three times as much money as I paid back then. Recently, last few weeks or so, I got a 50 Caliber Plus combo at a pretty nice deal and as I was afraid, this was the gateway for what is almost certain to come. It's clean is pretty nice and the lead channel has a good bit of gain but it is definitely better suited for the metal guys than me. I am way more into fusion type sounds. As I recall the mark iii was great and could get some of what I love, certainly better than the caliber...it is just really strident! You can use the eq and ramp down lots go highs/mids but it is just not a mark iii no matter what and I think that is closer to the places I want to be.

Fast forward to today. I am a professional touring musician in Nashville so I do run into plenty of gear. I went to a new shop and lo and behold they had 100 watt 2c+ combo with reverb, but non eq. Has the EV speaker. I could not resist trying it since I had never actually played one. You probably know how that went. I am surprised that it did not have a bit more gain (I suspect there could be a lower output tube in the lead channel or something like that) but regardless of that part, the sound was great. And WAY more my speed. I am looking more for Allan Holdsworth type tones. I knew that years ago (in probably my favorite tonal era of his) he used a mark iii, a 50 caliber (not the plus like mine) and I maybe some of the other offerings of that era. I saw him live somewhere around then and he had mark series boogies for the lead amp, with the load box setup, etc.

I feel like today my time spent with the 2c+ has done a few things.

1 - it probably ruined me for most other amps. I have never been a fan of the EV speaker and I still thought it sounded great. I bet it would be astounding with some of the speakers I have available. The touch/feel was excellent.

2 - finally an amp that the mids and highs are not so ridiculously harsh!

3 - even in the small cab size it did not seem SO boxy. Maybe in real use it could end up being boxy but in the room with a little volume (not crazy) it had a nice low without the mud and nasal sound that my calibre has boatloads of, regardless of the speakers I have tried.

I have played a real Dumble, owned by a well known player. Also of note, I own a Fuchs ODS classic 1x12 combo. I sort of feel like my Fuchs sounds better than the Dumble honestly. I don't own so it could be premature but in regards to the 2c+, I have a strong suspicion I like it better than both. I immediately liked what it was doing.

So with all that rubbish in mind...
the 2c+ is hard to afford...

I have read a lot around here but (sorry) here we go again...if I got another mark iii and changed a couple of the caps like c30 etc, that is often mentioned, could I expect to get the smoother "treble/mid" response like the 2c+? I know that they are in the same family and many people do that sort of thing to help out the mark iii. I guess my point is I am definitely not looking for brutal/bite/eq set to v scooped/metal type tones. I mean the 2c+ with the treble close to all the way up was not as crazy bright as you would think. As I recall, my old green stripe was definitely brighter but still a great amp and with the right guitar and speaker would certainly be in the ballpark. And...Holdswoth himself did use the mark iii to get that sound so that is a thing.
Just wondering for less than half the money if it could with a mod or two give me "that" aspect of the tone. Might possibly be nice with careful tweaks (possible R2 mod) to have that crunch rhythm.
I had a mark iv at one point and it was good but it did not seem to have the magic of my old iii or the 2c+ I tried today. And I am not a person that typically buys into the hype of this or that.

Is there a mod of sorts like the equivalent of the c30 cap in a mark but for a caliber?

One thought is to move the Fuchs and the Caliber, AND still need more money... and buy the 2c+ but that feels a bit painful to think about. It has crossed my mind though.

Thanks for reading if you lasted this far!

 

[kingtone2017]

I guess you guys didn't make it the bitter end haha...

I can distill it a bit for you if you care to reply.

If you mod a mark iii (I have heard the c30 lingo around here) can you get the buttery smooth high end of the 2c+ ?
I know there is a transformer thing happening, board difference etc, just mainly interested in the higher frequency stuff.
My 2c+ experience was not too tubby in the bass or brittle in the highs for me and it is a non-eq model.


Also...is there a mod for the 50 caliber plus to decrease the crazy mid/high frequencies, possibly similar to 2c+/mark iii type mods you see mentioned in this forum and on the net?

Thank you!

 

[rarebitusa]

Coffee is good. If you like what you heard... just put an EQ in that loop and it will expand the tonal palette even further. There was a recent related discussion here, but you probably saw that

2C+ mods for a III

Curious was it a SimulClass power section?

That aside the DC is a solid amp but yea not the same. FWIW IIIs have started to drop in price, maybe a blue or red stripe would get you closer then the Green did. Have you ever tried out a JP2C?

I don't want to add to any GAS here but... a IIC+ is indeed a special amp. Mine is an HR, early 100 trans and while I love all my other Mesas that one gives you something extra also agree the EV is a great speaker with it.

Yea I know I didn't really answer the question

 

[kingtone2017]

Coffee is good. If you like what you heard... just put an EQ in that loop and it will expand the tonal palette even further. There was a recent related discussion here, but you probably saw that

2C+ mods for a III

Curious was it a SimulClass power section?

That aside the DC is a solid amp but yea not the same. FWIW IIIs have started to drop in price, maybe a blue or red stripe would get you closer then the Green did. Have you ever tried out a JP2C?

I don't want to add to any GAS here but... a IIC+ is indeed a special amp. Mine is an HR, early 100 trans and while I love all my other Mesas that one gives you something extra also agree the EV is a great speaker with it.

Yea I know I didn't really answer the question

My old green stripe was definitely a killer amp by all accounts, just maybe not as smooth on the top, which sounds like some cap mods would do a lot. The green was simulclass and I ran el34s in the 25 watt mode from time to time. The 2c+ that I played the other day was a 100 watt non-eq. The immediacy of the attack was excellent. Yet it was still smooth and bubbly in the sag/compression/sustain. In a beautiful cream cab to boot!

 

[rarebitusa]

So that should be an HR... 100/60W with Reverb. If I make out the serial number correctly that is a really early factory IIC+ or a converted IIC. Anything earlier then SN 12,500 is in that C->C+ transition period. recommend doing the loop test just to make sure it checks out. Gotta luv the creme combo

If you mod a mark iii (I have heard the c30 lingo around here) can you get the buttery smooth high end of the 2c+ ?

I dunno specifically but probably digging here further you'll find related posts WRT component upgrade specifics.

 

[kingtone2017]

So that should be an HR... 100/60W with Reverb. If I make out the serial number correctly that is a really early factory IIC+ or a converted IIC. Anything earlier then SN 12,500 is in that C->C+ transition period. recommend doing the loop test just to make sure it checks out. Gotta luv the creme combo


I dunno specifically but probably digging here further you'll find related posts WRT component upgrade specifics.

I have been looking around a bit. Most guys want the scooped metal type tones and while I don't hate that, I am trying to go for higher gain fusion ala Allan Holdsworth, Al Dimeola certain periods. I have played through every Boogie at some since for years I worked in a store where we carried them. IMO the mark v and its variants don't do it for me. For whatever reason (maybe my different tastes) I felt like the mark v amps (including the JP) sound good but to my ears and fingers, nothing like the early mark boogies. I heard a Petrucci clip where he got them dialed in almost identical, a 2c+ and his sig amp...however neither of those were anything like my old amp or the one I played through the other day. Again, maybe I am asking the amp to do something it does not do, and he is asking the amp to do something that both will do. John sure gets a great heavy sound and I love his playing but it is definitely not very Holdsworth! And contrary to every mesa enthusiast I have ever spoken to, I basically never used the eq in my old green stripe.With more British type speakers on the smooth side, it sounded quite good.

 

[rarebitusa]

I have been looking around a bit. Most guys want the scooped metal type tones and while I don't hate that, I am trying to go for higher gain fusion ala Allan Holdsworth, Al Dimeola certain periods.

Oh totally get that... sure the IIC+ can chug but it does sooo much more. I find Ch 1 the unsung hero, it's pedal response is unique... sometimes feel you can get better single note work with a low drive OD pushing it. While I dig my V alot and also the IIC+ voicing, yea it's not really the same thing at all. There is something organic about the shared tone stack in the II & III. Since I've only played with a III on occasion I can't comment with conviction on the comparisons, but a III responded in similar fashion to the IIC+ in many ways.

Unfortunately it's hard to find a vid where a II/III comparison is done with say Vol 1 on 6 Man I'd seriously consider finding a red stripe to checkout.

 

[Darkstar2]

The price on that C+ isn't even all that insane, especially considering its in a store in Nashville. Going on 5 years ago, a non-eq 100-watt would have been what, $2500 tops? Certainly the 60-watt non-EQ ...

 

[GJgo]

Best case scenario- get the C+ and run an EQ in the loop. Not quite as good as the onboard, but worth the difference in cost.



Next best scenario for 1/3 the cost- get a late IIB (I prefer loop modded) or a III that's III+ modded. Neither of these are AS good as a C+, however they are both VERY good and as close as you're going to get.

Here's a couple example vids I've done.





I haven't done much with low / mid gain, but here are a couple with a III+ and a IIB LM.

 

[rarebitusa]

FWIW was poking around WRT the details on the III+ mod. At least this post seems to provide some solid info on the C30 options.

Specifics on the C30 change

The III+ ESP playthru was pretty good. Maybe a black stripe is a better choice. I certainly don't need another amp ... but I'd be good with a III+ GEQ 60W.

 

[Darkstar2]

@GJgo I've been meaning to connect with you! I've watched a multitude of your Mark-based YouTube videos and admire the sound you're getting! I myself have a JP2C with the Schumachers and wanted to ask -- at what level do you record your gain settings? And are you doing Left-Center-Right guitar tracks on your music? It's absolutely phenomenal!

Here's a vid of the tones I get out of mine (while running a Stealth 50 in unison):

 

[GJgo]

FWIW was poking around WRT the details on the III+ mod. At least this post seems to provide some solid info on the C30 options.

Specifics on the C30 change

The III+ ESP playthru was pretty good. Maybe a black stripe is a better choice. I certainly don't need another amp ... but I'd be good with a III+ GEQ 60W.

It's more than just the C30 mod. I had Mike B. do this to a blue stripe a bunch of years ago & it was still harsh, and still not like my red stripe. Since then he's done three III+ and a III++ mod for me, and IMO the III+ mod is 100% the way to go on any III. Those three +s (black, blue & green) have been by far my favorite out of the 10-ish IIIs I've owned.

 

[GJgo]

@GJgo I've been meaning to connect with you! I've watched a multitude of your Mark-based YouTube videos and admire the sound you're getting! I myself have a JP2C with the Schumachers and wanted to ask -- at what level do you record your gain settings? And are you doing Left-Center-Right guitar tracks on your music? It's absolutely phenomenal!

Here's a vid of the tones I get out of mine (while running a Stealth 50 in unison):

Thanks man. Since I switched from the iPhone to a DAW I have been doing L/R/C tracking, and lately even moved to reamping only for better consistency.

My gain is generally 4-5. Less is more when multi-tracking. Honestly same goes for in the live band where there's volume involved.

P.S mic choice & placement is possibly the most important thing in recorded demo audio, followed by speaker choice. The amp matters, but far less in comparison. Everything else is minimal for high gain close mic tracking.

 

[rarebitusa]

P.S mic choice & placement is possibly the most important thing in recorded demo audio, followed by speaker choice. The amp matters, but far less in comparison. Everything else is minimal for high gain close mic tracking.

Yea... my experience as well even with low to moderate gain amp settings.

 

[Darkstar2]

Thanks man. Since I switched from the iPhone to a DAW I have been doing L/R/C tracking, and lately even moved to reamping only for better consistency.

My gain is generally 4-5. Less is more when multi-tracking. Honestly same goes for in the live band where there's volume involved.

P.S mic choice & placement is possibly the most important thing in recorded demo audio, followed by speaker choice. The amp matters, but far less in comparison. Everything else is minimal for high gain close mic tracking.

Thank you very much for the reply -- I've been using the JP2C like everyone else (minimal mids and lows, cranked highs, gain at about 1pm to 2pm), so I'll try pulling that gain back to 11am or noon.

In your mic comparison, I liked the E906 the best. I usually record two amps at the same time, into 2 isocabs with two SM57 in Clayman pattern (mic capsules basically 45 decrees from each other).

I think I liked the 2001 V30 boosted with the Boss OD best, followed by the Greenbacks, then the Fortin boosted V30s and then Fortin boosted Greenbacks. Redbacks were my least favorite.

 

[kingtone2017]

(OP here)
This is all interesting and thank you very much for your replies everyone...
I am starting to think I am the only person in the universe that desires the kind of sound I want!
I am not looking for a scooped metal tone. I guess the mark series is so popular, and good, at getting that sort of tone, that metal players flock to these amps. Call me a unicorn!

I am looking for tones in the style of my favorite fusion players, which does not involve very dramatic v shaped eq settings. In the past when I owned my mark iii green stripe 99% the time I had the eq disengaged. If it was ever turned on it was at very small incremental settings. I always used Celestion type speakers like G-12-65, greenbacks, a little bit of V-30 and so on. Below are some links to examples of some places I would love to go. The lead tone amp is a mark iii, not sure of stripe.

The first link is from Allan's studio recording of "City Nights."






My old green (long gone unfortunately) would probably get me in that arena, especially since Holdsworth used a mark iii in my favorite (tonal) era of his.
Worth noting: he used these amps into a load box- sometimes eq-effects- power amp-cabs. Setting (amp) volume "where it sounded good" and bringing up the volume in the speakers via power amps/etc to the actual level he wanted.

The main conundrum here for me is that I was getting the feeling from my 2c+ experience that it might be the thing to nail that sound with just an amp, (minus very much external eq-power amps etc, it being smoother/sweeter) even better than the iii.

So my question is still sort of the same for those who may have had both amps ...with mods do you guys think the iii could get as smooth as the 2c+ "in the highs/mids"
I am just wondering if a modded iii would give me what I actually hope for at maybe less than half the money of the mighty 2c+.

 

[GJgo]

Look for an early black / no stripe III with the 105 PT. Or, any III that's III+ modded. That's as close as you're going to get.

 

[kingtone2017]

NEW INTEL!
So I took my 50 caliber plus to the shop that has the 2c+ because they have an amp guy and I wanted him to look at the caliber. The reverb does not work(and it is not the tube) and the 6l6 tube sockets are loose (and it is not the tubes themselves)

I knew I was going so I took the opportunity to revisit the 2c+. I took a guitar and a boost pedal just for fun.
I found something out...unless I am wrong it is not a 2c+, it is a 2c. I did the loop test and when you turn up the gain on the lead channel it changes and sort of tries to go microphonic.

That means it is not a 2c+ correct?

I got to turn it up a bit more and it sure is not very high gain. My guitar has pretty hot pickups and I had the gain on 10 on input and lead. Sounds great but not the gain I remember from my old mkiii and not nearly the gain you hear metal players achieve. Even with my boost pedal going pretty strong on the input it was surprisingly un-saturated. I guess the other guitar I tried the other day was more honking in the miss but this was definitely not the gain monster you hear on clips above in this thread. I thought maybe some low output 12ax7s might have been put in but it looked like the SP mesa ones which were typically pretty high output.

 

[rarebitusa]

NEW INTEL!
So I took my 50 caliber plus to the shop that has the 2c+ because they have an amp guy and I wanted him to look at the caliber. The reverb does not work(and it is not the tube) and the 6l6 tube sockets are loose (and it is not the tubes themselves)

I knew I was going so I took the opportunity to revisit the 2c+. I took a guitar and a boost pedal just for fun.
I found something out...unless I am wrong it is not a 2c+, it is a 2c. I did the loop test and when you turn up the gain on the lead channel it changes and sort of tries to go microphonic.

That means it is not a 2c+ correct?

I got to turn it up a bit more and it sure is not very high gain. My guitar has pretty hot pickups and I had the gain on 10 on input and lead. Sounds great but not the gain I remember from my old mkiii and not nearly the gain you hear metal players achieve. Even with my boost pedal going pretty strong on the input it was surprisingly un-saturated. I guess the other guitar I tried the other day was more honking in the miss but this was definitely not the gain monster you hear on clips above in this thread. I thought maybe some low output 12ax7s might have been put in but it looked like the SP mesa ones which were typically pretty high output.

Yes, if it is a IIC+, plugging into the FX return with a guitar or a source and varying the lead gain should have no effect on the output. Looks/sounds like that is a IIC.

 

[kingtone2017]

Yes, if it is a IIC+, plugging into the FX return with a guitar or a source and varying the lead gain should have no effect on the output. Looks/sounds like that is a IIC.

good to know! thank you!