Mk III ??low volume, or am I being unfair..

[McBarry]

Here's the skinny:
MkIII simul head, all 4 6l6's running.
Mix of Boogie, Sylvania 12ax7's.
Reverb run at 3 usually, presence about 2.5.
Gtr input about 7, pulled. All tones around 5.
Master about 2.73 to 3 for CLEAN channel.

Here's my dilemma..
comparing to my origMk I, IIA and IIB, at these settings my ears would be almost bleeding. Well for the Mk I they would be bleeding..
But I need the m/vol here to compare with the earlier Mk's.
As an aside, the R2 channel is very loud, (yeah, I did the vol mod, much better control), and the lead ch is also very loud.

Soooo, those with experience with the MkIII, is it "normal" to have to run the master so much harder??
One thought I had was it's a linear taper m/vol pot, and the earlier are log..
Equally, I am toying with the idea of a fault in the clean part of the premp, before the R2 and lead sections.
But I really am after collective experience before I go on a wild goose-chase, for something that might be quite benign.. Dave

 

[Whoopysnorp]

That honestly sounds off to me. One man's ear-bleeding is another man's comfortable rehearsal volume, but I have experience with two IIIs (blue stripe short head and purple stripe long head, both simuls) and with either one, if I put the master up to 2 I get blown out of the water. You mention that the R2 and lead channels seem like they have appropriate volume; where are your volume and lead master settings at?

 

[kdorsey]

I take it you're playing thru a 1x12 cab? I practice with master @ 2+ and outside gigs closer to 3. But I'm pushing 2 2x12 cabs and have pretty good tinnitus (is there a correlation here? :wink: ). But playing thru the EV speaker in the combo alone, master @ 2 would be pretty loud. It's all relative. I use the pair of 2x12s for the simple reason of distributing all that sonic energy between several drivers, keeping the piercing output of one speaker from making me more deaf. It's moving more air, but the volume SPL is lower than if driving one speaker. I don't own a MkII, much less a MkI, so I can't speak toward the comparison. But since my green stripe is running in pentode mode, it does seem slightly louder than a purple stripe running in triode (even though that only amounts to a 10W difference).

 

[CoG]

I find there's a pretty big difference between R1 (clean), R2, and Lead with normal-ish settings. Master at 3 on R1 is decently loud but if I go to Lead at that point even *I* want to leave the room.

It's noticeable when recording, too, R1 is very dynamic, with almost no compression, and if you hit it really hard it will peak as high as Lead does but normal playing will be a significantly lower level. With the Master over 2.5 Lead just makes a big caterpillar in the track. If you record and look at the levels you'll see the difference.

 

[McBarry]

Thx Guys,
cab is a 1x12", Theile design with vintage Altec 417-8c.
Whoopy - haven't paid close attention to the R2 or lead channel as yet. However, R2 vol is around the 2ish area and if lead gain is 8ish the lead master needs only 2ish to keep up with clean ch.
My Mark I, IIA and IIB, with input gain 7ish, the master vol is a tiny bit under 2 for band practice to hear above a drummer working reasonably har (he's not a mega-hitter like say Dave Grohl for instance. No flames pls..LOL). Live gig master is 2.5. At that point feedback is starting but easily controlled ie: use to your advantage, but it's not a drama, and amp is pretty loud.
Today I was noodling around, at master 2, it's really not very loud at all. sitting in front while trying different preamp tubes, and my face was intact. With the other amps, I'd be deaf as a post by now..

Put it another way, if U guys were playing geetar straight in, on clean channel, at what settingS would U start saying "this is getting **** loud.."

 

[Whoopysnorp]

Something sounds off to me. I run my volume at about 5.5 and my lead drive at about 8, and I need to have my R2 and lead master volumes up around 7-8 for them to sound right relative to R1. Running both R2 and lead masters at 2 would sound waaay low on my purple stripe.

 

[SonicProvocateur]

What's your lead master usually at? How old are your power tubes? Brand?

I'm with whoopy. I play through a 2x12 and a 4x12 (both 120 watt) and sometimes both, and with the lead master at 2 and the R2 at 2 these settings are way low, even on my 60 watter. It's not exactly about "keeping up" but its like CoG said, it's about maintaining dynamic balance, which on recordings are much easier to tell. Right now I have my Lead Master at around 4 and R2 at around 5 and usually I start getting my face melted at around Master volume 3-3.5 for shows and rehearsal with Volume 1 set at 7...

 

[JimmyB]

That's similar to my Mk III experience, both with my dear departed green stripe and the red I still have: master has to be at 4 or 5 before it's loud, with volume at 7... talking about R1 here. With master at 2, it's barely bedroom volume and at 3, it's living room volume.

If I had volume at 7 and master at 4 on my IIa, I'm sure I'd blow out every window and door in the house! :shock:

 

[McBarry]

Ahh, that sounds familiar JB..
thanks heaps for the note - sounds like I'm not chasing a fault then..
I'm usually around 3.5 for smaller venues, and it sits next to the drummer.

I'll still do some signal chasing through the preamp, but you've re-assurred me.. Ta !

 

[Whoopysnorp]

Wow, either we have radically different definitions of what 'loud' is, or Mark IIIs seriously differ amongst each other. On both my Mark IIIs, if I put the master at 2 in my bedroom, I'd get the cops called on me for sure.

 

[Neptical]

This is where I'm at, and have been for quite some time. It's thick and punchy, yet still sings and sustains for days. The same settings apply in Simulclass and Class A...no presence and sometimes a slight touch of 'verb. The amp never sees the Master past 2.5-3, as that's loud enough for any stage volume or rehearsals I've played.

 

[kdorsey]

I know I've said it before, but my settings are really close to yours, Neptical, on my green stripe.

But I'm just not seeing the output sag that others are reporting here. Either people are playing at 140dB/m or my amp just screams. Playing outdoors with no backdrop (like from a flatbed trailer) I have to turn up a bit, like to master 3. But if I'm on an enclosed stage, especially those portable fold-out stage trailers, I blast the bejeezus out the front row. Typically, I'll self amplify and monitor without any help from the sound guy (again, that kinda depends). But in all, unless I'm trying to push the power stage into crazy distortion, I'm around 2-3 on master. Lead master, just a bit more.

I, too, would question power tubes, speaker impedance, phase inverter tube or other similar factors.

 

[holy-diver]

Something is wrong. On every mk iii I have owned, 4 now, the lead master has to be set at 5 at least to get it as loud as the r1. And 2 to 3 is louder than **** :?:

 

[SonicProvocateur]

people are playing at 140dB/m

:lol: This.

When I got the suggestion to crank my lead master instead of rolling off the guitar volume to balance R1 for the darker, jazzier sound it was like the amp came to life. Keeping the lead master low still gives a different kind of bottom end, but my band still plays -rediculously- loud. Your amp is probably loud too...just like all our Boogies.

McBarry...i'm thinking if it's not a setting issue, it's a power tube issue. Are you using 5881's? They are notoriously less loud and peg out easily...I ran a brand new pair for like 30 minutes and couldn't stand them. I had my master cranked to about 5 and still wasn't hitting "the zone".

 

[Neptical]

Kdorsey - Cool settings, man. They're pretty close indeed. 8)
At the moment, I'm just rolling back my guitar volume to clean up. I really like the way it sounds. I can get a cool Eric Johnson thing going on that I really dig.

McBarry : I'd have to agree with above statements in noting that this could be a power tube issue. Something definitely seems a little funky.

 

[kdorsey]

people are playing at 140dB/m

:lol: This.

When I got the suggestion to crank my lead master instead of rolling off the guitar volume to balance R1 for the darker, jazzier sound it was like the amp came to life. Keeping the lead master low still gives a different kind of bottom end, but my band still plays -rediculously- loud. Your amp is probably loud too...just like all our Boogies.

I used to run a similar config a few years ago. Pushed master to 7 and dialed back with lower R2 and Lead volumes, plus a Power Brake. The animals in my house still ran for cover when I would practice. We were also, amazingly, ant and roach-free. :lol:

 

[McBarry]

Thx guys,
Nep,Kdorsey, are those settings with a gtr plugged in direct? Reason I ask is with pedals etc in front, the incomming signals will vary a lot, and so we're not comparing apples with apples.
I'm away now, but Saturday I'm going to:
a) Mk3 preamp out into a powered mixer
b) Mk2B preamp out into same mixer, controls of each amp the same, feed them simultaneously a signal from the laptop and see what the sound is like.
If needed, also Mk3preamp out into poweramp of Mk2B and Mk2B preamp out into poweramp of Mk3. Again, controls same, same input signal.
Lastly, map the resistance of the M/Vol pot to see if it taper or log.

Yeah, could be a power amp issue. Tubes 4 x Mesa 6L6, I "think"" str 440's. Interestingly no sticker on base, and they're coke bottle shape - the idea of cheap and under-powered fakes crossed my mind. I guess I could also do the maths and check the power output of each tube..
Will advise on Sat or Sun.

 

[SonicProvocateur]

The STR-420 coke bottles are older Chinese made tubes from the Mark IV era. They are real Mesa tubes though, even if they don't have the label on the bottom (i've seen some that don't).

http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41166

 

[Neptical]

Thx guys,
Nep,Kdorsey, are those settings with a gtr plugged in direct? Reason I ask is with pedals etc in front, the incomming signals will vary a lot, and so we're not comparing apples with apples.

Yeah, the guitar straight in. I don't run pedals in the front of my amps ( from my long time fear of tonal degration), only a bit of delay and chorus in the effects loop.

I'm away now, but Saturday I'm going to:
a) Mk3 preamp out into a powered mixer
b) Mk2B preamp out into same mixer, controls of each amp the same, feed them simultaneously a signal from the laptop and see what the sound is like.
If needed, also Mk3preamp out into poweramp of Mk2B and Mk2B preamp out into poweramp of Mk3. Again, controls same, same input signal.
Lastly, map the resistance of the M/Vol pot to see if it taper or log.

That sounds like a pretty killer setup! I'd be interested in hearing how that sounds,actually.

Yeah, could be a power amp issue. Tubes 4 x Mesa 6L6, I "think"" str 440's. Interestingly no sticker on base, and they're coke bottle shape - the idea of cheap and under-powered fakes crossed my mind. I guess I could also do the maths and check the power output of each tube..
Will advise on Sat or Sun.

Maybe you should buy some Winged =C='s! The Marks LOVE those tubes.

Keep us updated!

 

[kdorsey]

Thx guys,
Nep,Kdorsey, are those settings with a gtr plugged in direct? Reason I ask is with pedals etc in front, the incomming signals will vary a lot, and so we're not comparing apples with apples.

I play both ways, but am anal retentive about keeping unity gain in my signal path. Unless I'm running only the Carbon Copy in the loop (it doesn't have any gain control), everything is virtually transparent, gain-wise. In fact, in the worst condition, gain is reduced in the pedal path before the amp, so the effect would produce lower output.