Mini Rec effects loop question.

[WardP]

I havent posted on here before as I have found that my questions can often been answered by using the search function. I recently downsized from my Simul 295 powered rack setup to a Mini Rec. I absolutely love the sounds available from this amp and appreciate the much easier lug and carry. The only query I have is the effects loop, for the life of me I cant see why the master volume 'feeds' the effects send, why would it not just be a direct line out with an adjustable level? I have set all of my tones running a T.C Electonics Nova system at bedroom levels, upon taking it to rehearsal and cranking the master (one of the big attractions of a low wattage amp) all of the levels are now wrong, overbearing reverb and delays etc :shock: . Obviously I can change the effects patches but why do it this way? it means having several banks of patches needed to match the difference in the master volume level.
Am I missing something here? I'm no newbie and have just been used to setting an effects level send, writing patches and it never mattered where the master was set....until now.
I firmly believe if the mini rec had a nice built-in reverb it would be close to the ideal amp for most settings. If this has been covered (I couldnt find it) I am happy to be linked to the appropriate thread.

Cheers

 

[domct203]

The problem is that the amp lacks a master output control. All Recto's get their FX Loop signal from the Channel Masters, and use the master Output control as the FX Return control.

What you need is a volume attenuator at the end of your FX Loop chain, and use that as a master output control. Set your amp up at band levels, then use the attenuator to bring the amp down to bedroom levels, all without messing with your FX Loop send levels.

Search eBay for "amp volume box". There's plenty for under $20.

Dom

 

[WardP]

Thanks for that, I knew there must be a work around for this issue.

I will look into it.

Cheers

 

[soundchaser59]

What you need is a volume attenuator at the end of your FX Loop chain.....

use the attenuator to bring the amp down to bedroom levels, all without messing with your FX Loop send levels.

I don't see how that will help. I'm not sure you understand what he is saying.

The problem is not at the end of the fx loop chain. The problem is at the beginning of the fx loop. The master on the Mini Rec IS the fx send. If you turn the master up loud enough to play on stage with a loud drummer, that means the signal going into your fx loop effects pedals is too hot, and the inputs to the effects are overdriven and distorted then, even to the point that the effect pedal will feedback or become "microphonic" in some way. It has happened to me when I cranked the master with a certain chorus pedal in the loop, the pedal started to squeal and clip the inputs of the next pedals in the chain.

The only way to get rid of that distortion at the inputs of the effects in the loop is to turn down the master.......but then the amp isn't loud enough to play with a loud drummer.

Wouldn't the solution be almost the opposite of what you say? Keep the master volume low to prevent clipping the fx loop pedals inputs, then at the end of the fx loop chain use a clean boost to pump the level back up for the power tubes?

Or, maybe another solution would be to change the fx loop tube? (is it V5?) Use a low gain tube there like a 12AT7 or even a 12AU7 if you will be playing at full volume all the time?

 

[WardP]

The problem is not at the end of the fx loop chain. The problem is at the beginning of the fx loop. The master on the Mini Rec IS the fx send. If you turn the master up loud enough to play on stage with a loud drummer, that means the signal going into your fx loop effects pedals is too hot, and the inputs to the effects are overdriven and distorted then, even to the point that the effect pedal will feedback or become "microphonic" in some way. It has happened to me when I cranked the master with a certain chorus pedal in the loop, the pedal started to squeal and clip the inputs of the next pedals in the chain.

In your situation, or anyone using effects where the input level cant be adjusted then this workaround wouldn't be effective. As I understand this solution what it does is allow the effects levels to be set with the master cranked, then the 'amp volume box' can be wound down (with the master still cranked) to play at lower levels.....which is what I have spent the last hour or so doing. If the increased output from the master volume clips pedals then that leaves the user with the option of running the effects in front of the amp (rendering the effects loop rather useless) which isnt where you really want some effects.

Thanks for the feedback, I dont mean to bash Mesa at all, Ive been flying their flag in South Australia since I bought my simul 295 in 1990 but I really think this is an odd decision. The main reason a lot of people are interested in a low wattage amp is the ability to crank the master as well as the preamp...nearly impossible with higher watt amps in most gig situations. Why you would design an amp to feed an ever-increasing line level into an effects unit is to me, quite odd. I might drop Mesa an email and get their take on this issue. A nice built in reverb AND a standard effects send with a level control would be my only suggestion to improve this awesome little amplifier.

Cheers all

 

[markblasco]

I had the same issue, and using a volume control in the loop right after my FX box fixed the problem completely. I run the channel volumes fairly high, and they don't clip my FX unit (Line6 M13), and then run the output of the FX into the volume control (just a guitar pot wired into a box), and that goes back into the amp. It in essence works just like a master volume, and does exactly what you need.

Lately I've been using the amp without FX in the loop, and I still use the volume control in the loop because the channels sound better when the channel volumes are turned up. I find that the gain channel sounds much better when the master is set at noon rather than at 8:00, and having a volume control in the loop lets me get that tone without it being too loud to play at home.

 

[WardP]

Hey guys, thanks for all the great advice and ideas, I've been a bit busy so my apologies for the late response.

The volume box idea makes sense and I have on on the way from the US. I have rewritten all of my patches with the master set to around 1.30 - 2 oclock. The idea of being able to wind that back without effecting the input to the effects unit is cool and will make it easier to use at home.
I am still a bit puzzled by this decision but remain grateful the mini recto has an effects unit as with no reverb it would have been a bit of a deal breaker.

Cheers

 

[domct203]

Hey guys, thanks for all the great advice and ideas, I've been a bit busy so my apologies for the late response.

The volume box idea makes sense and I have on on the way from the US. I have rewritten all of my patches with the master set to around 1.30 - 2 oclock. The idea of being able to wind that back without effecting the input to the effects unit is cool and will make it easier to use at home.
I am still a bit puzzled by this decision but remain grateful the mini recto has an effects unit as with no reverb it would have been a bit of a deal breaker.

Cheers

Be sure to let us know how it works for you. I'm convinced this will take care of your issue.

Dom

 

[Addictedtokaos]

Would a volume box (attenuator) work?

I agree with soundchaser59 on this one.

This amp is missing the output section control (no amplification control of the signal coming from the preamp - its already maxed).

All the volume pot in the end of the effect loop will do is bring the level down, which will be too quiet for the gig level and you will still have your fx issues with clipping etc..., as the level is the same going into your fx.

A volume box may work in the beginning of your loop to bring the level down before your pedals to prevent your fx issues but your going to lose volume.

I dont completely understand how the power section is wired up on the mini to not require an output control, but I think your best bet is as suggested, run into a volume box before your effects, adjust your master to your liking, use the volume box to bring the fx signal down until you get the results you want from your FXs, and try a clean boost at the end before FX in.

 

[domct203]

Would a volume box (attenuator) work?

I agree with soundchaser59 on this one.

This amp is missing the output section control (no amplification control of the signal coming from the preamp - its already maxed).

All the volume pot in the end of the effect loop will do is bring the level down, which will be too quiet for the gig level and you will still have your fx issues with clipping etc..., as the level is the same going into your fx.

A volume box may work in the beginning of your loop to bring the level down before your pedals to prevent your fx issues but your going to lose volume.

I dont completely understand how the power section is wired up on the mini to not require an output control, but I think your best bet is as suggested, run into a volume box before your effects, adjust your master to your liking, use the volume box to bring the fx signal down until you get the results you want from your FXs, and try a clean boost at the end before FX in.

Where are you guys getting the impression the OP has issues clipping the FX in the loop?

The OP's issue is that once he has his amp set for band levels, he doesn't want to mess with those setting for lower volume practice.

This amp is missing the output section control (no amplification control of the signal coming from the preamp - its already maxed).

The Mini has a "output section control" (& FX Send level control), it is the channel masters. What the amp lacks is a FX RETURN level control, which is the OUTPUT control on the bigger Rectos.

Once the amp's FX loop & final volume settings are set at their optimum levels, the attenuator at the end of the FX Loop chain would be used to lower the final volume of the amp, same as the OUTPUT control on the bigger Rectos.

Unless I'm totally missing something here ............

Dom

 

[Addictedtokaos]

The OP's issue is that once he has his amp set for band levels, he doesn't want to mess with those setting for lower volume practice.

The Mini has a "output section control" (& FX Send level control), it is the channel masters. What the amp lacks is a FX RETURN level control, which is the OUTPUT control on the bigger Rectos.

Once the amp's FX loop & final volume settings are set at their optimum levels, the attenuator at the end of the FX Loop chain would be used to lower the final volume of the amp, same as the OUTPUT control on the bigger Rectos.

Unless I'm totally missing something here ............

Dom

Ah! My misunderstanding. I thought it was a line level issue running into the effects. If its just the overall volume being an issue than the volume attenuator as you (Dom) suggested will work fine. Set everything at gig level then use the volume attenuator in the loop to come down to bedroom level. Sorry for derailing the thread

 

[soundchaser59]

The only query I have is the effects loop, for the life of me I cant see why the master volume 'feeds' the effects send, why would it not just be a direct line out with an adjustable level? I have set all of my tones running a T.C Electonics Nova system at bedroom levels, upon taking it to rehearsal and cranking the master (one of the big attractions of a low wattage amp) all of the levels are now wrong, overbearing reverb and delays etc :shock: . Obviously I can change the effects patches but why do it this way? it means having several banks of patches needed to match the difference in the master volume level.

I think I'm the one missing something.......I just re-read your OP, and I think I put words in your mouth. I thought you were saying that the fx loop level going into your fx is distorting your fx inputs. But you never said that. What you are saying (I think) is that by cranking the master, it is making your fx loop stuff too loud, and you end up with a lot more fx, too much reverb, etc than you want in your final sound coming out of the speaker. But your loop fx are not being distorted by the send level you get when you crank the master. Right?

I misunderstood because I have never used any pedals that have input level controls. I never understood the "master as fx send level" issue until I put a chorus pedal in the loop and then cranked the amp up full blast. It took me a minute to realize that the squeal I was hearing was from the master sending a too-hot signal to the loop, which then was over driving my chorus pedal input and causing it to distort and oscillate. I don't have any input level controls on any of my pedals, but the newer pedals (like the Hardwire stuff) seem to be able to handle that send level a lot better than the older "vintage" type pedals.

I misunderstood your issue.......and I dragged addictedtokaos down with me!

 

[WardP]

No worries guys, and I appreciate all of the input. I am still waiting for the volume box but it makes total sense that this will solve the problem. For now, I am just winding the master back, just means the effects are a little under done - not exactly a big deal.

Just a side issue, I used the mini rectifier for the first time at a gig on the weekend. What a great little amp it is, just oozing tone. I had it running mostly through the vintage channel for that classic 80's hard rock tone and it just smoked. I ran it through 2 - 1x12 cabinets, one closed with a Vintage 30 and a semi-open cabinet with a 25 watt Greenback. This rig totally nailed that classic hard rock tone and I got many comments on my tone. Very happy with this amp and recommend it to everyone, although some remain sceptical

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