Mesa Dual/Triple Rectifier vs. Framus Dragon

[DWAKO]

I have always heard that there are some similarities between these two amplifiers, and based upon the sound clips I've heard of the Dragon, I really like it's thick, lower, mid punch. It doesn't seem to be fizzy and have many of the attributes that most dislike about the Rectifier. I'm looking at getting a Recto of some kind (so far the Tremoverb is the most appealing due to a smoother/warmer gain channel and great cleans) but I was wondering which version (if any) can achieve a tone close to the Dragon. It maybe a simple graphic EQ solution, but some may have had experience with achieving similar tones with the Recto. It's tempting to go out and get a Dragon, but I really would like to stay with Mesa because I really respect the company.

Here's a point of reference for the Dragon tones, you can't understand him (unless you're bilingual) but the tones are solid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MAiL_CIP24&feature=related

I recently tried a Roadster, it wasn't bad... but still had the fizz. I also tried the new Triple Rectifier Reborn and ran into the same issue but even more so. But in it's defense I could have cranked it louder, and with that much headroom you really need to. I have owned a Triple Rec. standard 3 channel and found it to be pretty muddy. Is there a version that I'm not aware of that can dial in a tone similar to the Dragon? As the Dragon's 3rd channel seems to be pretty "Mesa-ish" in general.

Thanks in advance!
Kalen

 

[fluff191]

Is there a version that I'm not aware of that can dial in a tone similar to the Dragon?

Yup. A trem-o-verb or an older 2 channel Recto will get you in the ballpark.


I love Framus amps, but **** they are too much money. Just my opinion.

 

[Nomad100]

New multi-watt rectifier running EL34's would be my choice. Any fizz from the newer Rectos is due to having the master volume less than 3 (The newer models have less fizz than the older models at any volume).

The Framus sounded good in that clip, but also sounded a touch muddy. Maybe just the recording, but I wouldn't trade my new Dual for it.

 

[YellowJacket]

Option #1
If you want a Framus, buy a Framus. Tone chasing is agonizing.

Option #2
a cab loaded with a combination of v30s and c90s cuts down the fizz substantially. I'd recommend looking into something like a Mills Afterburner 4 x 12 if you like those HEAVY tones.

Option #3
Look at different axes / pickups. Bare Knuckle pickups are awesome. I'm GLAD I spent the money!

 

[DWAKO]

New multi-watt rectifier running EL34's would be my choice. Any fizz from the newer Rectos is due to having the master volume less than 3 (The newer models have less fizz than the older models at any volume).

The Framus sounded good in that clip, but also sounded a touch muddy. Maybe just the recording, but I wouldn't trade my new Dual for it.

Yeah I guess I need to have a second try with the Multi-Watt Triple Rectifier. I liked it better than the dual, it had a bigger sound due to more head room. Framus amps are expensive, but you can find them used for pretty cheap, they don't hold their value as well as Mesas do. I'm also worried about getting a Framus because the build quality has been known to be pretty poor. A guitarist in my old band had a Cobra and that thing had so many issues, and he ended up selling it because he just sick of dealing with it and pouring more money into keeping it working. So that's the main thing scaring me away from Framus, because I know how good Mesa's build quality is.

I would go the Multi-Watt route if I had the money, but the Tremoverb seems to be the most appealing, especially considering I could get one for under a grand.

Yeah, the Painkiller looks like an incredible pickup for my needs, it's very tempting.

 

[YellowJacket]

I would go the Multi-Watt route if I had the money, but the Tremoverb seems to be the most appealing, especially considering I could get one for under a grand.

I didn't realize that Framus amps had a reputation for being unreliable. In that case, pass.

I'm guessing you like the added versatility of the Tremoverb as well as the improved clean tones!? Definitely A/B a Dual and a Triple, since the Triple does have more grunt.

Yeah, the Painkiller looks like an incredible pickup for my needs, it's very tempting.

The Rebel Yells I have sound absolutely astounding with the Dual Recto. I can literally pour on the gain and the tightness, definition, and pick attack doesn't wash out at all. If you drop in new pickups, just be sure to budget an additional $50 or so to upgrade the electronics on your guitar as well. Putting in CTS pots / Paper in Oil caps / 50s style wiring will really open up your tone a lot. It will be much more urgent and aggressive, which is a good thing.

 

[DWAKO]

I didn't realize that Framus amps had a reputation for being unreliable. In that case, pass.

Well that's just been my experience. He had it re-biased for Ruby tubes in the power section and when they put the new tubes in it burned a hole through the circuit board, so I he sold it as is on craigslist and the guy who bought it from him (who was a personal technician) fixed it up and had it re-biased... The same thing happened. It also had little quirks before this. I also met another guy through craigslist who had owned a Framus Cobra and quickly said "those are the worst amps ever built." I don't know if this is the same story with the Dragon, but it definitely makes me skeptical.

Yeah the Tremoverb has a better clean channel and it's modern and vintage modes are supposedly warmer and less highs, this is more appealing considering I'm not a "high end sizzle kind" of guy. There is a guy on craigslist that has one, I'm going to see if he'll let me try it out first and a/b it with my friends Triple Rec.

I'm not extremely familiar with different wiring styles, where can I get these pots and how is the 50s wiring style different?

 

[YellowJacket]

I didn't realize that Framus amps had a reputation for being unreliable. In that case, pass.

Well that's just been my experience. He had it re-biased for Ruby tubes in the power section and when they put the new tubes in it burned a hole through the circuit board, so I he sold it as is on craigslist and the guy who bought it from him (who was a personal technician) fixed it up and had it re-biased... The same thing happened. It also had little quirks before this. I also met another guy through craigslist who had owned a Framus Cobra and quickly said "those are the worst amps ever built." I don't know if this is the same story with the Dragon, but it definitely makes me skeptical.

I wonder how they compare with Bugera haha.

Yeah the Tremoverb has a better clean channel and it's modern and vintage modes are supposedly warmer and less highs, this is more appealing considering I'm not a "high end sizzle kind" of guy. There is a guy on craigslist that has one, I'm going to see if he'll let me try it out first and a/b it with my friends Triple Rec.

This might be best, lest you discover that the Tremoverb doesn't have enough headroom. Definitely consider holding out until you can acquire a Triple Recto Reborn. That might be a better option.

I'm not extremely familiar with different wiring styles, where can I get these pots and how is the 50s wiring style different?

They sell CTS pots everywhere. My stuff came from mojotone, for instance. Get the Paper in Oil caps as well. 50s style wiring has a different lug on the pot soldered down. It gives the volume and tone dials a more aggressive taper and it really causes the tone to be more open and aggressive. (I like 500k CTS pots and 0.22uf caps for my Les Paul) I seriously found some diagrams online that explained how to set the wiring up. They were very clear and straight forward.

Hmm, you're not a sizzle guy? I hear you. The 3 channel Triple Rec REALLY sizzles, especially on channel 3 modern. THIS is why you like the Electra Dyne, which is the same reason I like it. The 2 channel heads sizzle less although buying 5881 power tubes can really tame that down even further. Also, not using v30 speakers exclusively that have that high mid (sizzle) spike helps further to mitigate this characteristic.
Another thing to consider is cabinet choice. The Stiletto cab has more mids and less lows / highs while the Rectocab has more highs and lows and is scooped.

 

[DWAKO]

I wonder how they compare with Bugera haha.

*sigh* Bugera.... Where do I begin with them.... Some like them, I do not. They are terribly built.

They sell CTS pots everywhere. My stuff came from mojotone, for instance. Get the Paper in Oil caps as well. 50s style wiring has a different lug on the pot soldered down. It gives the volume and tone dials a more aggressive taper and it really causes the tone to be more open and aggressive. (I like 500k CTS pots and 0.22uf caps for my Les Paul) I seriously found some diagrams online that explained how to set the wiring up. They were very clear and straight forward.

Do you happen to have the link to those diagrams? I'm decent with a soldering iron if I have a diagram to go by.

Hmm, you're not a sizzle guy? I hear you. The 3 channel Triple Rec REALLY sizzles, especially on channel 3 modern. THIS is why you like the Electra Dyne, which is the same reason I like it. The 2 channel heads sizzle less although buying 5881 power tubes can really tame that down even further. Also, not using v30 speakers exclusively that have that high mid (sizzle) spike helps further to mitigate this characteristic.
Another thing to consider is cabinet choice. The Stiletto cab has more mids and less lows / highs while the Rectocab has more highs and lows and is scooped.

Yeah, sizzle was the reason I strayed away from Rectifiers altogether for a while and it's why I got a Nomad 100 but it was too muddy, then a Bogner Ubershall but it had this extremely annoying high pitch frequency I could not eq out no matter what I did and the clean channel was terrible, and then the Electra Dyne but it's too middy with not enough gain and thickness. So here I am back looking at Rectos. Ideally I would get the Triple Rectifier Reborn but I'm getting married in less than a month with a a fair amount of expenses less. I'm selling my ED now on ebay and I have a Road worn Tele I hope to sell... maybe together I'll have enough to get the 2010 Triple Rec. I have my friends 2 channel Triple rec to use during my transition for shows. I'm really finding I like the Vintage channel A LOT. It's a nice balance, really thick and heavy, but still clear and not "spiky". As far as the Stiletto cab, I've owned every version of the current Rectifier and Stiletto cabs. I liked the stiletto cab but it was a bit "honky" with the Dyne IMO so I traded a guy for the straight/slant mix Rectifier cab and I'm much more happy with it. To me it has a "bigger" sound. I run it w/ and 2x12 Road King cab which naturally brings a lot of mids to the equation, so it balances out nicely. I just like a very even, balances sound. But I also love it when you really dig into the strings you get that nice pick "growl/snarl" with the singing upper mids, I'm getting real close to that with my friends Triple Rec. I think if I throw a Tube Screamer in front I'll be in heaven. :mrgreen:

 

[YellowJacket]

*sigh* Bugera.... Where do I begin with them.... Some like them, I do not. They are terribly built.

Joking obv. They're the latest budget tube amp!

Do you happen to have the link to those diagrams? I'm decent with a soldering iron if I have a diagram to go by.

http://www.dominocs.com/AshBassGuitar/Gibson50s.html

There you go. That compares and explains the whole dea.

Yeah, sizzle was the reason I strayed away from Rectifiers altogether for a while and it's why I got a Nomad 100 but it was too muddy, then a Bogner Ubershall but it had this extremely annoying high pitch frequency I could not eq out no matter what I did and the clean channel was terrible, and then the Electra Dyne but it's too middy with not enough gain and thickness. So here I am back looking at Rectos. Ideally I would get the Triple Rectifier Reborn but I'm getting married in less than a month with a a fair amount of expenses less. I'm selling my ED now on ebay and I have a Road worn Tele I hope to sell... maybe together I'll have enough to get the 2010 Triple Rec. I have my friends 2 channel Triple rec to use during my transition for shows. I'm really finding I like the Vintage channel A LOT. It's a nice balance, really thick and heavy, but still clear and not "spiky". As far as the Stiletto cab, I've owned every version of the current Rectifier and Stiletto cabs. I liked the stiletto cab but it was a bit "honky" with the Dyne IMO so I traded a guy for the straight/slant mix Rectifier cab and I'm much more happy with it. To me it has a "bigger" sound. I run it w/ and 2x12 Road King cab which naturally brings a lot of mids to the equation, so it balances out nicely. I just like a very even, balances sound. But I also love it when you really dig into the strings you get that nice pick "growl/snarl" with the singing upper mids, I'm getting real close to that with my friends Triple Rec. I think if I throw a Tube Screamer in front I'll be in heaven. :mrgreen:

Getting married is pretty fun! MAUI Honeymoon FTW!

I love how midrangy the Electra Dyne is, basically my perfect tone. If you were keen on a 2 channel dual we may have had to talk! As it stands, I'm becoming convinced that you need the extra grunt and headroom that a triple offers. The Bare Knuckle pups should add to that evenness you are talking about. They aren't really peaky in any way, which is great. You swap in a couple of c90s to your cab and your tone should be more even yet again, and the sizzle will be all but vanquished. With my oversized 2 x 12, it is great how as I turn up the presence and treble, the upper harmonics get brighter, biting, and more rich instead of sizzling. SOO GOOD!

 

[DWAKO]

Getting married is pretty fun! MAUI Honeymoon FTW!

We're going to Disney World, she's never been, it should be pretty sweet!

I love how midrangy the Electra Dyne is, basically my perfect tone. If you were keen on a 2 channel dual we may have had to talk! As it stands, I'm becoming convinced that you need the extra grunt and headroom that a triple offers. The Bare Knuckle pups should add to that evenness you are talking about. They aren't really peaky in any way, which is great. You swap in a couple of c90s to your cab and your tone should be more even yet again, and the sizzle will be all but vanquished. With my oversized 2 x 12, it is great how as I turn up the presence and treble, the upper harmonics get brighter, biting, and more rich instead of sizzling. SOO GOOD!

The Mesa Electra Dyne is a great amp and does vintage tones amazing well, it's still my favorite vintage amp... but my tastes have changed and it's time to move on.

I have another potential option on a rectifier... A Roadster is for sale in my area for a very reasonable price. I've played on one and like it but I didn't spend much time with it and it was through a cab with only V30s and I didn't get to crank it and get it out of "hissy" range. The gainier tones are definitely darker and it seems to have less fizz than the standard rectos, which I really like. Plus it has a solid clean and plenty of options with 4 channels, the power section is the only thing... I don't think it would bother me because the preamp is darker to begin with and maybe throwing in some 5881s in the power section for increased headroom would help? It would save me about a grand by buying it instead of the Triple Rectifier Reborn. I don't mean to be cheap, but it shares many features with a voicing I may potentially like better. I may have to run to guitar center and A/B them both tomorrow... I just want to make sure I explore all of my options before I pull the trigger.

 

[YellowJacket]

We're going to Disney World, she's never been, it should be pretty sweet!

RAD!!! Should be a blast!!

The Mesa Electra Dyne is a great amp and does vintage tones amazing well, it's still my favorite vintage amp... but my tastes have changed and it's time to move on.

I hear you. Funny how I'm moving in the direction of the Electra Dyne / Marshalls and you are moving towards the more modern tones.

I have another potential option on a rectifier... A Roadster is for sale in my area for a very reasonable price. I've played on one and like it but I didn't spend much time with it and it was through a cab with only V30s and I didn't get to crank it and get it out of "hissy" range. The gainier tones are definitely darker and it seems to have less fizz than the standard rectos, which I really like. Plus it has a solid clean and plenty of options with 4 channels, the power section is the only thing... I don't think it would bother me because the preamp is darker to begin with and maybe throwing in some 5881s in the power section for increased headroom would help? It would save me about a grand by buying it instead of the Triple Rectifier Reborn. I don't mean to be cheap, but it shares many features with a voicing I may potentially like better. I may have to run to guitar center and A/B them both tomorrow... I just want to make sure I explore all of my options before I pull the trigger.

The Roadster has a GREAT clean. My take on that head was that I LOVED channels 1 and 2 but I could do without 3 and 4. I just didn't click terribly well with them. In all fairness, I was trying the Roadster with a lackluster two humbucker fat strat through a stock MESA 4 x 12 while I play my Dual with my modded Les Paul through my MOCK212B cab. For tone, the deck was stacked MASSIVELY in favour of my Rev F. Plenty of guys think the Roadster is awesome so it is definitely worth checking out. As a swiss army knife type of amp, the Roadster rules.

I think you mean 6550 tubes right? 5881s are basically 6L6s with a less harsh high end. Don't get me wrong, the Dual Recto and Roadster both have plenty of headroom. They just have less so than a Triple, which has more thump and grunt to it. Just keep in mind that the Electra Dyne sounded great at low volumes in the practice room as well but when you crank it up . . . I just think you should ignore cost for the time being and just order all your options from 1st choice down to 5th choice. You know, 2 Channel Triple, Triple Reborn, Roadster, Framus Dragon, etc.
The 6550 tubes will probably allow you to squeeze another 10 - 20 watts out of a Dual or Roadster, provided you use the Silicon Diode Rectifiers. Can you imagine a TRIPLE with those things???

 

[Roadifier]

I have both the dragon and the roadster. They both run through mesa recto cabs with V30's. The build quality is way better than a bugera, and is actually really good! I got mine for about 500$. It sounds great and is tricky to dial in at first but once you get it set right it is great. I thought It was fizzy when I first had it, but then I took some and really dialed it in. I kept the mids about 12:00, bas 9:30 Presence 10:30 Treble 12:00 Deep 12:30 channel volume almost full. The deep and bass control are very sensitive together, To get a nice tight thick sound, you should keep the bass down and have the deep around 12:00. The thing I find with the channel volume on full, is that it gets rid of fizzyness and adds to chunckyness with the master to taste, and keep the FX loop mix knob in the middle. One great feature is that the framus has Middi for an easy integration to midi devices for switching channels on the framus. I wish mesa would implement this in their amps so you don't have to spend extra money on a Rjm amp gizmo.

I also find the roadster is very similar to the dragon, but the roadster has less mids and a very thick low end and a smooth high end when dialed in right. They are very close in sound but I think the roadster wins when your going for that thick punchy sound that you want. They are very close in sound and build quality (later framus got a workshop in china so quality must have gone down with those models, but mine was made in germany) but the price point is around 600-900$ difference. I would go for a framus dragon and recto cab with V30's if you don't want to spend $1600 on a roadster. They are both great amps and do what they do very well. If you bought either one I don't think you would be disappointed with either one.

~zach

 

[Melodyman]

I have always heard that there are some similarities between these two amplifiers, and based upon the sound clips I've heard of the Dragon, I really like it's thick, lower, mid punch. It doesn't seem to be fizzy and have many of the attributes that most dislike about the Rectifier. I'm looking at getting a Recto of some kind (so far the Tremoverb is the most appealing due to a smoother/warmer gain channel and great cleans) but I was wondering which version (if any) can achieve a tone close to the Dragon. It maybe a simple graphic EQ solution, but some may have had experience with achieving similar tones with the Recto. It's tempting to go out and get a Dragon, but I really would like to stay with Mesa because I really respect the company.

Here's a point of reference for the Dragon tones, you can't understand him (unless you're bilingual) but the tones are solid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MAiL_CIP24&feature=related

I recently tried a Roadster, it wasn't bad... but still had the fizz. I also tried the new Triple Rectifier Reborn and ran into the same issue but even more so. But in it's defense I could have cranked it louder, and with that much headroom you really need to. I have owned a Triple Rec. standard 3 channel and found it to be pretty muddy. Is there a version that I'm not aware of that can dial in a tone similar to the Dragon? As the Dragon's 3rd channel seems to be pretty "Mesa-ish" in general.

Thanks in advance!
Kalen

Don't buy an amp because you respect the company but don't dig it's tone, just imo. It's noble but you have to get whatever tool allows you to get your music out the way you want it to be. Just imo.

 

[msi]

Although there are many other changes two things you could do to a stock dual rectifier to get it closer to a dragon would be to switch the coupling capcitor coming off the first gain stage. Mesa uses a 0.022uF cap in that position while Framus uses a 0.047uF cap in the same position. Also removing the 20pF capacitor on the grid of the second gain stage might help. There are other things that affect the tone of the amps, such as the nfb in the power amp, the voltage the amp runs at, and the effects loops, but those changes in the pre-amp would get you closer to the Framus tone than a stock dual rectifier.

 

[kramerxxx]

msi,

How do these mods change the sound?

*************
Although there are many other changes two things you could do to a stock dual rectifier to get it closer to a dragon would be to switch the coupling capcitor coming off the first gain stage. Mesa uses a 0.022uF cap in that position while Framus uses a 0.047uF cap in the same position. Also removing the 20pF capacitor on the grid of the second gain stage might help. There are other things that affect the tone of the amps, such as the nfb in the power amp, the voltage the amp runs at, and the effects loops, but those changes in the pre-amp would get you closer to the Framus tone than a stock dual rectifier.
*************

Does it shift the focus of the Rec to be more Mid or Upper-Mid focused? If so, this is exactly what I've been looking to do with my Dual Rec.

thanks,
Steve