Mesa Boogie: Boogie 4x10 cab with the JP2C

[Doug Doppler]

I saw this earlier. That 410 cab looks to have some issues there. Hint: it sounds better when the cab is making contact with the floor. Raising it up made it much brighter. Sound better by itself than it does with combining other cabs with it. Interesting sound no doubt. Was thinking a change in two of the 10's in each cab but have not decided if the G10 Vintage or something else would be ideal. I can just mod one cabinet and it it does not pan out, I can put the originals back in. Hopefully I do not damage the grill when doing such.

Hey @bandit2013

First off, you bring up a REALLY interesting point. I'm friends with Dave from IsoAcoustics and there is a LONG ongoing conversation we've had about coupling, and per his business de-coupling speaker enclosures from the surfaces upon which they sit. I picked up a Boogie 2x12 vertical cab last night and the now previous owner and I embarked on a similar conversation. Rick Hunolt one of the founding members from Exodus SWEARS by taking the casters off 4x12 Recto cabs to maximize coupling. Per last nights coversation as we were rolling my new cab to my van, I was like, "the last thing I want to do at a venue is wrestle with the casters loading on and loading off!"...

Two key points here that warrant a proper demo - how much is the cabinet getting bassier, how much the does surface on which they're place impact which frequencies are resonant. Secondly, and arguably the more important thing, how many guitar players (not pointing fingers here) don't actually know what their speakers are doing because they are not on axis with the dust cap. Once you start mic'ing things up this can be a rude awakening. Ditto with juxtaposing Cab Clone IR outs vs. the sound of the cabs and tweaking tones...

Per the discussion at hand, I started with just the 4x10 and was a bit, "Meh, I need to put some Celestions in there..." after A/B'ing the 4x10 while still on the floor. But... then I got all fancy and tried one of the Fillmore cabinets the 4x10 and was like, "Wow, THIS is cool!" and grabbed the Radial CabLink so I could get the impedance right. For me, getting all three cabinets on axis is a must hence why I hiked the 4x10 up. I'm REALLY curious can you hear a big difference between your top and bottom cabs when they're stacked and/or have you tried mic'ing them up to hear a definitive A/B test?!?

Per swapping0 the speakers in mine are rear mount and yours should be to given how consistent Boogie tends to be, which means you should have zero issues getting the new ones in

A couple of suggestions for anyone reading this that has yet to swap speakers (I traded a Marshall 4x12 for the Boogie Rectifier 2x12 Horizontal and had to swap the speakers with another Marshall cab per getting the stock G12T75 quad back into the traded cab)...
a. Start by taking photos
b. Have a small glass on hand to deposit all your screws/lugs/washers etc. - they DO sprout legs
c. If one does go missing in spite of said glass, look on the back of the drivers since they're magnetic
d. Use the right sized screw driver if you're not a power drill kinda person. I have a favorite one that has a big fat handle and my power tool skill is not great enough to prevent me from stripping screws
e. Double check the wiring with your photos before closing up the back of your cab


Cheers ~ Doug

 

[bandit2013]

I only bought up the coupling thing with the 410 based on observations I made with a similar cabinet. Mine are new and probably not broken in yet. Just one on the floor, no casters to remove as the cabinet does not have any. It is beefy sounding. When I did the full stack of the two 410s the tone changed considerably. I was concerned if both cabs were plugged into the amp. Sure, the JP2C changes tone when loaded at 4 ohms (drops in treble to some extent). I even placed a 410 on top of a vertical 212 and ran both of them and then by themselves. I even ran the two 410 side by side with both on the floor. The 410 will lose its low end when moved off the floor. Sure I have I experiment with this and that and will even lay on the floor if I need too.

As for the Recto standard slant front 412 or even the Recto Vertical 212 cab, it does not seem to make a difference if the casters are in place or removed. I actually prefer the cabs with the casters. Not sure why. At least they are removable if you need to make the speaker and amp combination more stable. Casters will allow the amp and cabinet roll away if there is a slope on the surface.

Oh, what is better than using a photo to check your wiring, use a multi meter. Plug in a speaker cable to the jack and measure resistance to confirm it is not an open circuit or that the resistance is where it should be. Knowing the resistance of the speaker first is helpful. Celestion speakers do not measure 8 ohms, they are more like 7.6 ohms. Voice coil resistance may vary from model to model.

Not sure if there is anything to gain if I were to change to the G10 Vintage except for the power handling. Supposed to have the same Voice coil of the V30 so I suppose the characteristic may be a bit different than the Creambacks. I may just buy 4 of them and replace the speakers in one cabinet and compare it to the other. May even do a Vintage + Creamback combination. Not sure if and when I will make the swap or get the speakers, not may places have them in stock.

 

[Doug Doppler]

I only bought up the coupling thing with the 410 based on observations I made with a similar cabinet. Mine are new and probably not broken in yet. Just one on the floor, no casters to remove as the cabinet does not have any. It is beefy sounding. When I did the full stack of the two 410s the tone changed considerably. I was concerned if both cabs were plugged into the amp. Sure, the JP2C changes tone when loaded at 4 ohms (drops in treble to some extent). I even placed a 410 on top of a vertical 212 and ran both of them and then by themselves. I even ran the two 410 side by side with both on the floor. The 410 will lose its low end when moved off the floor. Sure I have I experiment with this and that and will even lay on the floor if I need too.

As for the Recto standard slant front 412 or even the Recto Vertical 212 cab, it does not seem to make a difference if the casters are in place or removed. I actually prefer the cabs with the casters. Not sure why. At least they are removable if you need to make the speaker and amp combination more stable. Casters will allow the amp and cabinet roll away if there is a slope on the surface.

Oh, what is better than using a photo to check your wiring, use a multi meter. Plug in a speaker cable to the jack and measure resistance to confirm it is not an open circuit or that the resistance is where it should be. Knowing the resistance of the speaker first is helpful. Celestion speakers do not measure 8 ohms, they are more like 7.6 ohms. Voice coil resistance may vary from model to model.

Not sure if there is anything to gain if I were to change to the G10 Vintage except for the power handling. Supposed to have the same Voice coil of the V30 so I suppose the characteristic may be a bit different than the Creambacks. I may just buy 4 of them and replace the speakers in one cabinet and compare it to the other. May even do a Vintage + Creamback combination. Not sure if and when I will make the swap or get the speakers, not may places have them in stock.

Great info there, thanks for that

 

[mace]

When I play out and if we are on a ‘stage’* of any kind of wood I always remove the casters on the vertical 2x12. I do like the extra bit of umpf this gives. We play mostly hard rock, old school metal. The casters are super easy to take off and put on. I’m a bit of a dweeb and always have the cab slip cover on when laying the cab on it’s side to remove/install casters so the sides don’t get scuffed up. The removable casters are brilliant, IMHO.

*small time bar band, not playing in theaters and the like…just dive bars!

 

[Doug Doppler]

When I play out and if we are on a ‘stage’* of any kind of wood I always remove the casters on the vertical 2x12. I do like the extra bit of umpf this gives. We play mostly hard rock, old school metal. The casters are super easy to take off and put on. I’m a bit of a dweeb and always have the cab slip cover on when laying the cab on it’s side to remove/install casters so the sides don’t get scuffed up. The removable casters are brilliant, IMHO.

*small time bar band, not playing in theaters and the like…just dive bars!

Sounds fun. REALLY interesting to hear different people's takes on removing (or not removing) the casters. One of my 4x12 cabs is older and the casters do not like to come on or off after years of, um, casting, so that has been part of it. And trust the told, one of the venues I play is a small local bar, and rolling my cabs by the men's room and then pulling the casters off is not particularly appealing. Just sayin'

Cheers ~ Doug

 

[bandit2013]

Just an update on the Mesa 410 cabs.

Decided to modify one of them. I wanted something more suitable for distortion than cleans. The stock 410 cab with the Celestion G10 Cream Back speakers are decent. They will never replace the sound you get from a 12 inch speaker. Even the response is different.

I was curious if the 410 cab could be transformed into something for heavier playing styles. Not that the stock boogie 410 sounds bad, it lack the top end under distortion and is mostly midrange and not as much depth in the bottom end. Why the JP2C seemed to work out was the presence controls are a bit more aggressive when pulled out. Anyhow. the experiment begins with new speakers in just one of the 410 cabs. Was not sure what to get but settled on two different speakers. Jensen Jet Electric Lightning and Silver Bird. The EL is described as fat lows, aggressive midrange, bright top end with crunchy sound with high gain, the Silver Bird is more or less a ceramic version of the Black Bird 40W but with a 50W rating. Warm low end, detailed mids, open top end and crunchy with high gain.

Here is the stock cab before having the speaker transplant. What I dislike most about the cab design is the speaker jack is at the bottom of the cab. With the Badlander as the power source, the chassis is at the bottom of the head shell so there is room to fit a 3 ft speaker cable. Going with the Mark series amps, chassis is on the top. the 3ft cable will still fit but tight. So while doing the transplant, I realized I can swap the back panels to place the jack plate on the top instead of on the bottom.

The Jensen Lightning magnet is beefy compared to the Celestion cream back G10. Not sure what is under the plastic cover. The Silver Bird was similar but the diameter of the magnet was just a bit smaller in diameter. Both speakers are 50W compared to the 45W Celestion CB. I could have gone with higher power speakers like the MOD-70 or Tornado, even the Blackbird 10 is 100W but much higher in cost than I was willing to shell out.

The Jensen terminals on the speaker are reverse compared to the Celestion. Had to make sure I wired them correctly. The back plates can be swapped if the jack plate on the bottom is annoying. You may have to remove the leads on the speakers and resolder them so they cables can ride up vs down. Not sure there is enough slack in the wires to just reverse the panels. Stock wiring is left and right pair wired in series, then in parallel by the jack plate.

Just to find out how much different this experiment turned out. I decided to use my two Badlanders as the test mules. Here you can see that the modified cab had the back panels swapped to place the jack plate at the top. I made sure the jack plate had the labels facing in the right direction.

Running them side by side with different amps was a good way to isolate the load from each other. I do not have a Mesa head track but I do have a Switch track. So why not see how it turns out.

On the clean channel with both amps set the same, all controls except for channel volume were at noon. I ran all three power modes on each amp from 100W, 50W and 20W. Both cabs had similar character in midrange content. Top end chime was more apparent with the Jensen loaded cab. A bit more forward sounding. Still the clean characteristics were roughly the same. The stock cab was just slightly warmer but they both sounded excellent for that clean characteristic that makes the 410 desirable. When I ran both amps at the same time it sounded the best. The real test is with the crunch and crush modes.

Here is where the two cabs differed the most. With distortion, the Jensen loaded cab did not disappoint. Very bold, aggressive and nice top end that the stock cab was lacking. Actually thought it was really good. However, when I switched over to the stock cab, I was not disappointed with that either. A bit warmer and not as tight, much more midrange content and the top end was barely there. It still sounded good though, more vintage voiced. I would not call it a blanket effect as I could still hear some of the details, just more midrange. Sort of like it in a way. The Jensen cab was the big deal. It keeps sounding better every time I power up and run the amps. Break-in?
What became apparent, response of the cabs and sensitivity. I had to boost the channel master a bit more with the stock cab as the Jensen modified cab was much louder. Once I got the two amps sounding at around the same level, I hit the button to get them both going at the same time. That was the icing on the cake OK, it got loud as heck as I was running both amps at 100W but dang, that sound when combined was incredible. Blending in the tight and punchy low end of the Jensens along with their singing top end and the midrange content of the stock cab, that was Musical Nirvana at its best. I thought the IIC+ videos I have been watching had a sinister voice but this combination was unthinkable. I did want to see what would happen if I ran both cabs with one amp at the 4 ohm jacks. Same thing. Amazing. The Jensen speakers do not have as much dominant midrange content as the Celestion speakers. But whey they are blended together in parallel it rocks !

Yeah, I did try another mod and swapped two of the Jensens out with a pair of Celestions. Did not sound as epic. I wired the celesion speakers in series with the Jensen speakers but should have paired them up differently. For now I will leave the modified cab with the Jensen speakers as is. Not sure If I will look at replacing the Celestion G10 cream backs in the other cab. I sort of did the combination of the two. What does seem to become evident with the 10-inch speakers compared to the 12-inch, you have to work a bit harder to get the same effect. Decay rate of the 10's is much faster than with the 12's. The 12 inch speakers give you that fluid like sound where as the 10's it is too immediate, It still sounds great and I could see using the 410 cab pair for rhythm work more than lead. I have yet to hit this with the 7 string so not sure what to expect when I do.

TBH, first time I tried the Badlander with the stock 410 cab, I did not like it. Did not care much for the 410 with the Mark VII. JP2C was the better choice as you can get more top end with the presence controls. What I mean by not liking it was the loss of top end. It did not sound bad, just a bit too different from the norm I was used too with the V212 cab.

Considering how this experiment worked out, I would assume the Mark VII would have similar results. As for the Jensen speakers, may need to give them time to break in a bit and see if I can coax more midrange out of them. They are very aggressive and lively compared to the Celestion CB speakers. This was probably the third time I tried the Badlander with the 410 cab. My impression of them seems to have changed from the first time around. I would not doubt they are in a break-in period as well as I barely have used them since I got the cabs.

 

[bandit2013]

Just for S&G, I wanted to see how the modified 410 cab compared to the Mesa Recto V212. Now that was interesting. I felt they sounded very similar with a difference in midrange content but not much of a major difference. Those Jensen speakers in the open back format have become a rather interesting transformation for that 410 boogie cab. I met my objective as that was what I was hoping to achieve but had no clue if my choice in 10-inch speakers would meet the objective. Not sure which cab I like better TBH. At first I thought the 410 cab felt slower even though the response was much quicker with a faster decay rate than the 12-inch. No it was me that slowed down, I was spending too much time listening and not really playing. Cool. A much smaller box than the V212 cab with a similar sound characteristic using the Badlander. the stock 410 was just ok, not bad but not aggressive enough for the style of music I play. When stacking two 410 cabs, things change dramatically. the cab on top changes its overall character. The Celestion CB stock cab seems to favor floor contact than being raised up off the floor as it looses bottom end and some midrange and sounds a bit thin. When I ran both 410 on the floor it sounded really good. Wonder if doing the mod to the other cab will improve the stacked performance any? I assume the 412 cab full stack has some similar traits, I do not have a straight 412 cab to try. Something tells me that is not an issue since the straight cab is much deeper than the slant front cab as it retains the full 14 inches where as the slant front may start at 14 inches deep, it gets narrow half way up due to the top baffle angle. Anyhow, the experiment was success to me. So If I do mod the second 410, I may have to shift speakers around and set the lighting in one cab and the silver bird in the other, keep the heavy one on the ground (lightning) and lift the other. Not sure what will be next but that may be the plan moving forward.