master compatible tube list

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mejoshee

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hey all. just wanted to get something set up once and for all about compatible tubes for the mark v. hopefully, this can be stickied or something, depending on the reliability of postings from "legit" sources (esp mesa themselves). exact brands should not be necessary, though maybe that can be commented as "works good so far" (ex: jj/tesla). this is not to say i don't trust the prior postings in the "mark v tube thread" and the like, but i just wanted to help out the new mark v users and tube n00bs who don't want to have to sift through the opinion-laden portions of the forum (i confess to being opinionated :p ). just try to be straight-forward with what works or not, not why you like brand "a" better than brand "b". if you must post an example brand, try to give a website link or something of someone who may sell it.

this will mostly comprise of power tubes, but preamp or rectifier tubes should be indicated in here as well for the more basically available options. for example 12ax7, 12at7, and other 9-pin (noval) tubes; 5u4, 5ar4, etc.

my expectations for this thread are a list of:
1) 100% electrically compatible tubes for the mark v requiring no mods or anything special that isn't already available on the amp as a "standard" feature
2) tube combinations that may be "iffy" for some reason because of their high heater (filament) current draw, non-mixable with certain types (e.g. kt66+el34) for a single bias setting, oversized bases (too big for bear trap socket retainers)/envelope heights (i.e. physically does not fit in a head format), etc. but still generally available from a tube supplier (e.g. mesa, eurotubes, doug's, etc.)
3) tubes that 100% absolutely do not work without some major mod to the circuit as of the writing of this thread

when you post a tube model, try to give some general specs like a typical max power rating, the bias setting required (6l6 vs. el34 switch), heater current draw. if it's incompatible for whatever reason, indicate why.

i'll start it off with the easy and obvious examples:

6l6gc (power):
default tubes. work on both power settings & all wattage modes with bias select on "6l6".

el34/6ca7 (power):
option. work on both power settings & all wattage modes with bias select on "el34". do not mix w/ 6l6 type tubes! biasing system on mark v is different from iv.

6v6 (power):
works on variac setting (low b+) only & all wattage modes with bias select on "6l6".

12ax7 (pre):
default tubes.

5u4gb (rect):
default tubes.

6v6 & 6l6 (power):
in variac only, in 90w or 45w only. do not use in 10w mode!!! match tubes in xyyx layout, i.e. 6l6/6v6/6v6/6l6 or vice versa as mentioned by phyrexia.
 
Heritage Softail said:
You could always link 'safe/reliable' info to a page on your myspace or personal site. Just saying....
true. mostly i was hoping people would be honest and not try to hype things up. i give everyone on this board the benefit of the doubt, however you're right in the sense that it could be "reliable" from an anecdotal evidence perspective. i'm approaching this from a purely engineering perspective and would hope these are things that maybe mesa would (hopefully) say yes/no to outright. unfortunately, as we've all seen/discussed is mesa's tendency to deny tube compatibility purely based on either reliability or availability. i can understand their concerns so maybe we should, for now anyway, list what is safest according to them and occasional, very conservative additional options.
 
so, you can run

6L6 6V6 6V6 6L6

in variac power, 6L6 bias, and then 90w is a mixture of all the tubes and 45w mode is the two 6V6s.

you can reverse the positions of the tubes (Ls in the outer pair, Vs in the inner pair) but I think the first combination is more versatile.

It's not advisable to run 10w mode if you are running mixed power tubes, however.
 
more tubes. i've gotten some info from eurotubes, but somewhat conflicting info from tubedepot.

kt77 (power):
work on both power settings & all wattage modes with bias select on "el34". do not mix with el34.

i had asked both eurotubes and tubedepot about this. tubedepot told me to steer clear of these, probably more tonally than electrically. but i'm only trying to provide proof that the tubes are electrically suitable in the v, so that said, eurotubes answer seems to back this up that the kt77 is suitable.

kt66 (power):
work on both power settings & all wattage modes with bias select on "6l6". do not mix with 6l6.

same as kt77, regarding suitability. please confirm mixing tubes.

el84 (power):
work on both power settings & all wattage modes with bias select on "el34" or "6l6" depending on your method below:

basically you have to cheat and use a yellow jacket tube adaptor/converter (this can be said about any octal power tube-based amp mesa makes). pro is that you will reduce the heater current of the pt so it will run cooler (and long-lived), but the long-term benefit won't really be seen for years. cons: probably won't fit right in the head format cause of the extra space required for the adaptor.
 
i emailed eruotubes not to long ago this is the response i got.

The new Mark V amps use either a quad of 6L6's or EL34's, a single 5U4 rectifier, and seven 12AX7's. Because of the way these amps are setup we have not had great luck tonally spekaing with integrating 6L6's and EL34's. Here is a brief description of the options we really dug: The standard JJ EL34 is just like the old European EL34's. These are a bit soft with a shallower low end and a smooth breakup with a nice crunch, a typical high quality EL34.
The JJ E34L's provide a deeper low end and are more aggressive and punchy than an EL34. The E34L is tighter with slightly more headroom and power with a more aggressive crunch, a very articulate British tone.

The JJ KT77 is tighter than an EL34 and they have a very deep low end extension with a nice sizzle in the top end that is not brittle. The clean tone is very fat and full and the crunch has more of a chunk to it and it's very punchy and more aggressive than a standard EL34, a great tube for rhythm and solo work.

So for a comparison the JJ 6L6GC's have about the same low end as the KT77's but are a cleaner tube with a later breakup, and they are not as mid range heavy. More of a traditional Fender type tone. The 6L6GC's are a good way to go if you scoop your mids, and these are a great tube for heavy rhythm and melodic drop tuned metal.

Another option would be to use a pair of 6L6GC's in the inside sockets along with a pair of the KT66's in the outside sockets. This setup will get you a more aggressive mid range while still retainign a very deep and tight low end. This would add 38.00 to the "6L6GC" quote below.
JJ Electronic now has a great new production 5U4GB with dynamics equal to the old RCA 5U4GB, not too stiff with just the right amount of sag. These are a very nice upgrade from the stock 5U4.

For the front end we usually use the JJ ECC83S's which sound very fat and full. I would use a balanced ECC83S in the phase splitter hole which is the preamp tube that's farthest from the input jack. This will eliminate any dead spots due to phase cancellation.

The only other option would be if you want any of the preamp tubes premium graded for gain. The high gain ECC83S's have about 10% more gain than standards which adds a bit of bite and a sharper dynamic but does not hurt the clean tone. The other attribute that these tubes have is a faster filament rise time which is great for an EVH, Petrucci or Satriani type style, and is also good for fast palm mute and metal styles. If you decide to use these I would use them in the first three positions which would add 12.00 to the cost below.

A full retube with a matched quad of the JJ 6L6GC's, and a 5U4GB rectifier along with seven ECC83S's with one of them balanced for the phase inverter would run 151.50. A full retube with a matched quad of the JJ E34L’s, a 5U4GB and the same preamp tubes would run 137.50. A full retube with a matched quad of the JJ KT77's, a 5U4GB and the same preamp tubes would run 155.50. We can ship and insure either order by Priority mail for between 9.50 and 13.50 depending on your location, with a 3 day delivery anywhere in the US.

If you decide to place an order you can do so online ( https://ssl.eurotubes.com/cart/ ). This is a certified secure system, but please don't feel obligated to order online you are always welcome to just give us a call at 503-659-7401 during business hours which are from 9AM to 6PM west coast time to place an order personally. You can also place an order by FAX at 503-659-7385. All that's necessary is your shipping address and a VISA, MC, Discover or American Express number including the expiration date. If you decide to order by phone during business hours and you get our voice mail, leave a number and we will call you back!
Thanks,
Eddie
 
How are the JJ 6L6GC's compared to the stock Mesa 6l6's ...?
In terms of headroom, mids & such ...
 
pathos45 said:
Another option would be to use a pair of 6L6GC's in the inside sockets along with a pair of the KT66's in the outside sockets. This setup will get you a more aggressive mid range while still retainign a very deep and tight low end. This would add 38.00 to the "6L6GC" quote below.
JJ Electronic now has a great new production 5U4GB with dynamics equal to the old RCA 5U4GB, not too stiff with just the right amount of sag. These are a very nice upgrade from the stock 5U4.

So this option should be safe to do for the Mark V? if so, it looks very attractive to me. Especially with the High gain Ecc83s

PS. Awesome Thread!
 
NR2112 said:
pathos45 said:
Another option would be to use a pair of 6L6GC's in the inside sockets along with a pair of the KT66's in the outside sockets. This setup will get you a more aggressive mid range while still retainign a very deep and tight low end. This would add 38.00 to the "6L6GC" quote below.
JJ Electronic now has a great new production 5U4GB with dynamics equal to the old RCA 5U4GB, not too stiff with just the right amount of sag. These are a very nice upgrade from the stock 5U4.

So this option should be safe to do for the Mark V? if so, it looks very attractive to me. Especially with the High gain Ecc83s

PS. Awesome Thread!
yes, things are taking off!

i'm going to update my entries above.
 
lucidology said:
How are the JJ 6L6GC's compared to the stock Mesa 6l6's ...?
In terms of headroom, mids & such ...

not to sure yet im waiting on my ec to sell and then i think im gonna buy up a quad of 6l6s, kt66 and the high gain ecc83s i really want to try the kt66 and 6l6 mixture
 
Awesome, thanks for the update.

Very curious to hear what the 6L6 and KT6 have to give

BTW,
I have a matched set of JJ 6L6's, and a matched set of JJ KT77's. I ordered these from eurotubes on their website.

Do you think it would be OK to throw these in the MV, although I didnt specificly order the tubes for the MV???
 
lucidology said:
How are the JJ 6L6GC's compared to the stock Mesa 6l6's ...?
In terms of headroom, mids & such ...
i've only tried them in the mark iv, but they seemed to have more mid "bloom", stronger bass, more pleasing highs, warmth, etc. not tight, per se, but not harsh, unless the presence is turned up very high, in which case i would say that about every tube if that were not adjustable.
 
NR2112 said:
Awesome, thanks for the update.

Very curious to hear what the 6L6 and KT6 have to give

BTW,
I have a matched set of JJ 6L6's, and a matched set of JJ KT77's. I ordered these from eurotubes on their website.

Do you think it would be OK to throw these in the MV, although I didnt specificly order the tubes for the MV???
well as eurotubes will probably tell you, "blah blah blah bias. blah blah blah..."

taken out of the manual, the 2 outer sockets are the class a/b sockets, while the 2 inner sockets are "extended class a". this is opposite from the mark iv. always keep this in mind if you have the habit of playing either or both of them. the difference this time around is that the 2 bias ranges for 6l6 and el34 type tubes are selectable now.

unfortunately this means that either the el34's will bias very cold if you use them with 6l6's trying to mix them, or the 6l6's will bias way too hot if you use them with el34's. this has already been said before in multiple threads, but i thought i'd say it again just in case. people tend to get very confused about class a, ab, etc. i've linked the manual for your benefit. check out pg. 34 on the pdf (pg "30" of the manual) for "power select" and "90watt mode" etc.
http://www.mesaboogie.com/manuals/MkV_100224.pdf

so short answer is yes, you can use the same quad. normally you'd want to go for a matched quad because both the inner and outer pairs are out of phase with each other in a class ab amp (think marshall 100w, etc.)--basically any non-simul-class amp. tubes (1 & 2) or (3 & 4) are in parallel with each other. those pairs are then out of phase with each other. so actually i would think that even if you had a quad you'd want to try to get 2 different pairs in a simulclass amp, one "hotter" (higher current draw) than the other and use those in the ab sockets to warm them up a little bit. so actually, the only matching you need to do in a mark v should be for pairs, not quads. i would still give mesa a call and double check about this, but that's the gist i get from their manual and normal tube amp operational theory.
 
stephen sawall said:
I thought ....
6L6
KT66
5881
EL34
KT77
6CA7
6V6
EL84 with yellow jacket.

all worked.

yeah. here's the addition.
5881 (power):
work on both power settings & all wattage modes with bias select on "6l6". should be mixable with 6l6.

be careful, though, because some 5881's are not rated for the same power as a 6l6. most if not all 6l6's are rated for at least 30w, but 5881's can be rated at either 25 or 30w, depending on manufacturer. i am unsure how much power the class a tubes will be pushing vs the ab tubes to achieve the 90w mesa specs. this would be something to ask mesa about. this is not just a "divide by 4" to get the power output of each individual tube because the class a tubes might be running a different rating than the ab tubes. i have a mesa schem and will try to look into this, but if there is someone else who is a tube expert in simul-class, please chime in.
 
mejoshee said:
stephen sawall said:
I thought ....
6L6
KT66
5881
EL34
KT77
6CA7
6V6
EL84 with yellow jacket.

all worked.

yeah. here's the addition.
5881 (power):
work on both power settings & all wattage modes with bias select on "6l6". should be mixable with 6l6.

be careful, though, because some 5881's are not rated for the same power as a 6l6. most if not all 6l6's are rated for at least 30w, but 5881's can be rated at either 25 or 30w, depending on manufacturer. i am unsure how much power the class a tubes will be pushing vs the ab tubes to achieve the 90w mesa specs. this would be something to ask mesa about. this is not just a "divide by 4" to get the power output of each individual tube because the class a tubes might be running a different rating than the ab tubes. i have a mesa schem and will try to look into this, but if there is someone else who is a tube expert in simul-class, please chime in.

I saw something about some of the 5881 that are being made now are not true 5881. The vintage ones I have work fine.
 
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