Mark IV and power amp saturation

[primal]

I decided to try something today and I am surprised I never though to sooner.

I have a room in the house that is mostly dedicated to my studio, and I can close the door and play at moderate volumes even with the family home (Higher then bedroom volume but lower then drummer volume).

Normally I'll play with the channel volume on 2 and the master on 2 when the family is home. And I am very happy with the tone I get.

Today, I tried something different

I kept the lead channel channel volume on 1 and put the master volume on 8 (I was scared to go higher).

What I found really surprised me.

The volume was about the same as when I have both on 2 (obviously the pots are not linear).

But the tone just sounded off the hook. I know to many of you it may be like "duh", but it sounded fuller, crunchier, and tighter.

I had a few questions about this.

1. Does anybody else run there Mark like this?(or higher for that matter).
2. Is it safe to run a boogie with the master that high all the time?
3. How quickly can I expect to go through power tubes
4. Would an attenuator be worth it so I could turn up the preamp volume a bit more (I always here attenuators, especially the hotplate color the ton)

Thanks

 

[GD_NC]

I use an attenuator for practice at home but be aware they have some major limitations for playing at higher volumes. Two main problems with attenuators...

1. They suck off all the treble and alter the tone overall. The more you attenuate the greater the impact. So while the power tube saturation is nice the tone suffers overall. Some (like Webers) compensate for the tone loss but it's still not the same.

2. If you push your power amp tubes hard expect to replace them much more often. If you really push them hard expect to replace them VERY often. It's also fairly easy to push an amp (especially a high-gain amp) over the line without realizing it so don't go overboard. When you get nice saturation, STOP!

If you decide to use one, be sure it rated well above the wattage of your amp and its the correct impedance match. Overloading it might cost you a new output transformer. EL-34's in Tweed/Class A/Triode/ will saturate the fastest.

Now after saying all that... Power amp saturation is a beautiful thing!!!! I have a little 15 watt low-gain Peavey that I love to crank and attenuate for fun. It eats tubes and I love it. If it blows up (and it hasn't yet) it will be worth it 3x over. I can't bring myself to be so reckless with my Boogie.

 

[JohnDNJ]

check out the faustine phantom if you want a really good attenuator...pricey but the best out there.
go to tone merchants website and look there or call and ask about pricing. they are built to order only i believe.
also pete thorn just did a series of youtube vids on it and there is little\no change in tone even at the highest settings.

that being said i run my IV like this...clean 6, r2 5, lead 4..and adjust overall with master...typically 1\2 max.
it sounds good to me that way and while i do like to open it up now and then like you described I really
dont feel like blowing 150 bucks on tubes every few months.

 

[primal]

I'm probably going to sound dumb here, but what the hey.

If I really crank the master volume(like 8 ), and then just keep the channel volume low, am I not putting the power tubes into saturation?

To my logic, it would seem in this way I have saturated my power amp section but have not saturated my preamp section.

Is this not the case?

 

[silentrage]

This may not apply, but it might so I'm gonna throw it out there.
When I had my dc-5, I noticed that power tube seems to only come into play when both channel volume and master are turned up, ie. painfully fucking loud.
If I crank 1 and shun the other like the way you're describing, it's still fizzy.
But if I crank the output and lower channel volume, I get more bass and mids in the tone, and it sounds a bit punchier, if I reverse that I get more trebles and it sounds sharper, still both ways sound like mostly preamp distortion.

 

[GD_NC]

Just turning up the output will run your power tubes a little hotter. That will improve the tone somewhat, but to saturate them you need to push them a little with the pre-amp master too. The pre amp does not have to be distorted but it can't be too low. Generally to get power amp breakup it's going to be pretty **** loud. Marks are designed with massive clean power.

 

[primal]

Just turning up the output will run your power tubes a little hotter. That will improve the tone somewhat, but to saturate them you need to push them a little with the pre-amp master too. The pre amp does not have to be distorted but it can't be too low. Generally to get power amp breakup it's going to be pretty **** loud. Marks are designed with massive clean power.

OK,

I get it. thanks

 

[Mahalo]

I don't do this with my MkIVb, but I do use it on my 1982 JCM800 2204 50W head. ie, I run the master at 10 and just crack the preamp volume enough to get the level right. Tone of god!

 

[GD_NC]

I don't do this with my MkIVb, but I do use it on my 1982 JCM800 2204 50W head. ie, I run the master at 10 and just crack the preamp volume enough to get the level right. Tone of god!

+1 for that. A low wattage EL-34 or EL-84 amp is great for output tube saturation. 6L6's have a lot more power and stay clean much longer and louder.

 

[bryan_kilco]

I've tried this, and both ways pretty much sounded the same to my ears.

not quite sure i put the Master Output to 8.....seems that even if the Lead channel Volume was down to 1, it would be deafening. i feel like im not getting everything out of the amp since i can only turn it up to 2 Master, and channel volums on lik 3-4.

 

[fretout]

FWIW, on the topic of attenuators, I owned a THD hotplate (8 Ohm) and it worked great! It had switches that allowed you to add some high end back into the attenuated signal.

I later returned the hot plate because I discovered a trick with my Triple Rectifier. If you turn on the FX loop, you can crank the master volume and output volume and use the FX loop "send" knob to "attenuate" the overall volume. IMO, this produced a more pleasing, organic sounding tone than cranking my amp and using the attenuator.

 

[mrd]

Don't be afraid to turn your amp up guys... they are made for it. I haven't lately, but before I moved, I regularly jammed/recorded with my MKIV/RKII output/channel both on 10. Think it sounds good on 8/1... 10/10 sounds gnarly as ****! Just keep your gain lower, treble lower, and make sure your speakers can handle the volume. Also, wear some stinkin' earplugs :lol: Cuz it's LOUD!!!

Also, if you play that loud, don't boost the EQ like you would in a classic V-shape... when it's that loud, the cab will add it's own massive low-end resonance that will turn into muddled **** if you add to it even more with the V-shape. I usually actually cut my bass frequencies quite a bit, just because having an amp THAT loud in a 4x12 makes the cab resonate so much... I felt like if I added to it, the freaking cab would bust apart or something.

EDIT: Also, R1 on the MKIV with gain/channel/output at 10 is the most ballsy rock tone ever heard. :wink:

EDIT2: Also, if you play this loud, your power tubes will get raped about 70x faster than normal lol. And you'll probably need a cap job sooner too, if you make it a regular occurrence to play this loud.

 

[GD_NC]

Don't be afraid to turn your amp up guys...

Loud Boogies +1

:x Neighbors who don't appreciate the sound of screaming guitar penetrating their walls at massive volume -100

 

[mrd]

hahaha amen... I can't count how many times I've had cops at my door. Luckily, it's usually in the middle of the day and they can't really do much other than tell me there's been a complaint.

"Great officer, see ya tomorrow" *chugga chugga chug chug*

 

[Sebby123]

Don't be afraid to turn your amp up guys... they are made for it. I haven't lately, but before I moved, I regularly jammed/recorded with my MKIV/RKII output/channel both on 10. Think it sounds good on 8/1... 10/10 sounds gnarly as f%&#! Just keep your gain lower, treble lower, and make sure your speakers can handle the volume. Also, wear some stinkin' earplugs :lol: Cuz it's LOUD!!!

Also, if you play that loud, don't boost the EQ like you would in a classic V-shape... when it's that loud, the cab will add it's own massive low-end resonance that will turn into muddled sh!t if you add to it even more with the V-shape. I usually actually cut my bass frequencies quite a bit, just because having an amp THAT loud in a 4x12 makes the cab resonate so much... I felt like if I added to it, the freaking cab would bust apart or something.

EDIT: Also, R1 on the MKIV with gain/channel/output at 10 is the most ballsy rock tone ever heard. :wink:

EDIT2: Also, if you play this loud, your power tubes will get raped about 70x faster than normal lol. And you'll probably need a cap job sooner too, if you make it a regular occurrence to play this loud.

Im with you on all this at practice due to a loud drummer i play preamp volume 5 master 7-8 and thats where it sounds the best it just oozes sustain and clarity my V is a soft V with more mids and less highs and lows then a regular super scoop. Also my gain stays about 3-4 with a BB as a clean boost to run a hotter signal not to distort is sounds amazing.

 

[fretout]

Don't be afraid to turn your amp up guys...

Loud Boogies +1

:x Neighbors who don't appreciate the sound of screaming guitar penetrating their walls at massive volume -100

+1

If the neighbor comes to your house and tells you to turn down, you are playing at the correct volume.

 

[eet fuk]

I'm probably going to sound dumb here, but what the hey.

If I really crank the master volume(like 8 ), and then just keep the channel volume low, am I not putting the power tubes into saturation?

To my logic, it would seem in this way I have saturated my power amp section but have not saturated my preamp section.

Is this not the case?

It's not dumb, but a very common assumtion, though incorrect. The masters and output make up two master volumes. You need both up high to get high on a poweramp high. Master, master, promised only lies.