LSC/LSS owners; are you happy with channel2?Want to fix it?

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"recordings of his band with him playing the Lone Star (Before The Mod)".
Thanks for the comments, but I didn't use the LSC on those recordings. They required more than the 2nd ch could deliver. But now I could conceivably rethink that.
 
OOPS! My bad!

I just 'assumed' that it was the LSC. I knew the recording was BEFORE the 'mod' irregardless of what amp it was. To me; the important thing was to make sure everyone knew that it was NOT a LSC AFTER the 'mod'.

I wanted readers to check out your 'credentials' for judging the usefulness of the 'mod'...and in an effort to prevent them from 'assuming' that it was a 'modded' LSC...I 'assumed' too much myself.

I stuck my foot in a 'mess' of it! 'Assumption' that is....

I'm sure you know all about what happens when someone (in this case me) just goes and takes the liberty to 'assume' something...

Without getting too vulgar I can say that...

The word divides nicely into '***' and 'u' and 'me'!

No harm done I don't reckon.

Cheers: Charles
 
What? No 'Sir Lancelots' on a site named after a 'Grail-Quest'?

Well...is no one else going to try the 'mod' I have detailed here?

Swapping the 'gain' and 'master' pot positions on channel-2 is probably one of the easiest 'modifications' that could ever be conceived...but produces some of the most dramatic positive effects I have ever heard from any mod ever done to an amplifier.

I hope some of you haven't done this mod...and are keeping the results a 'secret'...just so that your LS will sound better than those of other players! Oh...yeah...some people WILL do things like that! If so...you will reap what you sow.

At any rate...my conscience is clear...I have 'done my duty' and shared the information. If 'plan-x' and I end up having the only Lone Star Amps out there with the mod... then so-be-it...the sound of our amps will just 'stand-out' all the more.

I was about to the point of selling my Lone Star due to dissatisfaction with channel-2. I tried the mod 'just-for-the heck-of-it'. I had no idea...what if any effect it would have.
I am now so happy with the sound of my LSC; that I have just arranged for the purchase of another one in a different configuration.

Cheers one and all! Charles
 
Charles Reeder said:
Well...is no one else going to try the 'mod' I have detailed here?
Not so fast.

I will be doing this, it's just a matter of getting ahold of my amp guy. I'm lousy with a soldering iron, and frankly, sheepishly, a little afraid of the bzzzztztzztztzzzzzt thing. Though I might run out of patience and do it anyway.

I will post my results, but I don't have an ETA yet.
 
Posted by dw

Charles Reeder wrote:
Well...is no one else going to try the 'mod' I have detailed here?

Not so fast.

I will be doing this, it's just a matter of getting ahold of my amp guy. I'm lousy with a soldering iron, and frankly, sheepishly, a little afraid of the bzzzztztzztztzzzzzt thing. Though I might run out of patience and do it anyway.

I will post my results, but I don't have an ETA yet.

He,He!

Actually I had you and a few others pegged as ones who might eventually give it a try!...

It's the 'lurkers' out there that I'm primarily addressing. The ones who will try it... and like it...but not post the results... so that this 'thread will just fade away'...
Then they can enjoy an 'advantage' over other LS owners...

Or...if they are techs (of varying skill levels)... they might be planning to offer this as a 'Major-New-Miracle-Mod' for the Lone Star (without sharing details)...and charge people Mega-Bucks for a mod that doesn't even require a single replacement part!

I am being TOTALLY HONEST HERE! I would have GLADLY paid $300 or more... to get the results this little 'freebie' mod gets...had I not accidentally stumbled across it myself!

It is so easy to do (especially for an actual tech)...that if someone were to remove their LS chassis from the cabinet and take it to a tech to have the 'swap' done...I can find no conceivable excuse for them to charge for more than a single hour of work...(as it actually takes far...far less time than that!) I should think it should cost no more than $30.00 max!

I brought this mod to people's attention that they might enjoy their LS as much as I now enjoy mine...and as I think it should have sounded this from the beginning... it should essentially be free (or at least very cheap)!


djw:
As to you doing it yourself...I really would rather you (and anyone else who is unskilled and/or uneasy around electronics) wait until you can have it done for you...as I have a suspicion that it would not be conducive to enjoying the Lone Star to find oneself with a 'toe-tag' lying upon a morgue slab!

Regards: Charles
 
This has been an interesting thread. I would be interested in trying the mod but not at the expense of my warranty. Mesa's warranty is a valuable part of the product. I like the sound of ch 2 enough as it is and think there is more work to be done to get it write. However, I have never loved it as much as ch 1 so I may call Mesa to check in on what this would do to the warranty. One idea would be to send it to Mesa and ask them to do it.

Prior to buying Lone Stars (I have both) I absolutely understood that ch 2 was not an exact clone of ch 1. I.e. I think Mesa did enough to make this clear; however, that could also be from my experience with Boogie: they invariably have a hi-gain channel.
 
Ok, I got impatient. My amp guy isn't available for a month. So I did The Reeder mod myself this afternoon.

I didn't electrocute myself. Obviously. Or not, I guess I could just have shocked myself a little. But I didn't.

Details forthcoming.
 
Okay, so I did it. I actually talked to my amp tech about this -- and, btw, I'd been meaning to ping him about retrofitting the 10w option into my LSC since I got it back when, so this whole Reeder business just made the call happen that much faster. Anyway, to finish out that tangent, he IS going to retrofit my LSC with the 10 watt output setting. So that's alllllllll goooooood.

He's The Man, too, so I'm not really worried about voiding my Mesa warrantee. Anyway, he isn't available for another 4 weeks, and he charges $75 minimum per mod, which I don't begrudge at all -- he's feeding his family this way, so power to him -- but he walked me through the process of doing the Reeder myself.

(We could debate the deal with discharging the caps -- I have read both sides of the play a chord, then turn amp off method -- he actually said play a chord, then UNPLUG the amp. He also said it doesn't discharge the caps 100%, but gets them down to under 20V or so; anything under 50 he says is manageable, so it's not nothing, but nothing to be too afraid of. I know, I've read several different takes on this. This was the advice I got, but since I didn't touch anything that made me go bzzztztzztztztzttzztzttzzzz, I can't vouch for the accuracy thereof. But it gave me enough confidence to try it myself. Anyway, Charles, I appreciate your concern, it was well-founded, and I took care because of it.)

I am planning on writing more up on this, including some clips and photos, but my detailed summary is as follows:

The process was a teeny bit tricky, but care and right intention served my negligible electrical chops well. My biggest worry was with the soldering itself -- I've never been happy with my soldering skills. And it was tight in there -- the leads aren't long, so you basically have to work right over the circuit board, or right next to it. I safeguarded against dripping solder on the board by placing a plastic spoon underneath the pot I was working on.

Other things: the 1-2-3 dot markings on the wires is really good -- I actually caught an error on my part this way, and had to re-solder one of my pots. Also, it was helpful to mark the pots themselves -- I know, the part nos. are listed on the diagram, but it saved me a small amount of confusion... Also, getting the pots out of the bottom channel (Ch2) was a little tricky, and involved tilting them up toward me before backing them out of the hole in the chassis... otherwise, the good news is that for me anyway, taking the chassis out of the cabinet and putting it back was a snap. The screws line up with holes in top and bottom of the chassis, so there's no aiming in the dark. just get the first one lined up, and you should be good.

Anyway, it all went basically without a hitch, which is good because I'd be out an amp for 4 weeks (and I have a show in 2).

Now, what you really want to hear about: The Sound.

Well, what can I say? Basically, The Reeder pretty much seems to be the real deal, that is, the clone thing is basically spot-on.

(That 1-digit discrepancy in the part number could account for a small difference in the output level of the channel, with all other controls the same and drive bypassed. At my home-volume level I had to compensate up almost an hour, so 9:00 on Ch1 = 9:45 on Ch2. But that's not a complaint, just a note.)

So, yes, having a true clone on Channel 2 really changes things. It sounds, well, amazing. Amazing!! It's like the true voice of the amp has been unleashed. Transparent. Bubbly. Juicy. All the color is back; what was once a contrast between pure, clear water and nonfat milk is now basically nothing.

It does seem to really highlight the way the Gain and Drive controls each contribute to the tone/gain structure. Before, the difference between the way the amp sounded with either of them dominant over the other seemed pretty subtle; now it's really clear how they affect each other. So far, I still really like having the Gain be the dominant control, with Drive staying behind and just adding some juice. But switching them is really cool too, and very different; you're essentially starting with a very clean channel with Gain under 12:00, and adding drive at that point makes it more of a buzz-saw-style OD.

Everything just seems clearer. Glassier, woodier, more real and alive. And now I get that same addictive feeling from Channel 2 that I always got from Channel 1.

I will say that it's possible that I will miss the sort of tight, punchy response Ch2 had, pre-Reeder; it had a thing, really. But add my hat to the circle of people who interpreted the adverts for the LS as saying the channels were clones of one another. In fact, my manual says in the overview: "Channel 2... can be set to achieve a slightly gainier clone of Channel 1, or, with the flick of a switch become a high gain preamp." I guess "slightly gainier" is Mesa's out; but I read that as something like a Channel 1 that goes to 11 or 15. Which is not what it was.

I'll also venture a guess at this point that Mesa did this for the reasons Charles surmised -- fear of criticism for producing an amp with 2 identical channels -- and possibly also because I think the stock config might have allowed the amp to get something more akin to a high gain sound. It seemed a little thicker, more amenable to large quantities of gain, without all the complex harmonics in the way. That's how I would read it at the moment. If that's true, this mod solidifies the idea that the LS's true character is NOT a high-gain amp, at least not the way the DR people like them. But it also brings it in line with the way I read the sell. [Edit: Upon further consideration, this is actually not true, at least not about the complex harmonics. It sounds really, really good just plain cranked, with the treble up -- just a lot clearer and more defined than before, if you can believe it. The same complaints about the loose low end still apply, so it's still not necessarily for the high gain aficionados. But it's a good sound nonetheless. In other words, the mod improved it in every way.]

Okay... I'll post more, maybe in a new thread sometime.

Meanwhile: Thank you, Charles.
 
Great thread, thanks Chas. Has anybody done this or is going to do it to their LSS? I like to set up ch 2 just a little hairier than ch 1 and only use the gain for this but there still seems to be some compression or something there that I don't like. As far as the drive/thick/thicker goes, there's nothing there for me.
 
Let's have a round of applause for 'djw'!

Congratulations 'djw' on doing the 'mod' and coming through 'unscathed'! I thank you for your positive comments...and...I am glad you took the time to explain and empathize your precautions as well.

Personally, I cannot imagine 'ever' changing back to the original configuration of the amp...it is just so 'juicy' and 'responsive' now! Every day I re-discover just how organic and 'open' the sound now is. It has become an overused 'cliche' (but it really applies here); the amp now sounds as if someone pulled a blanket off of it finally.

I like the comment 'plan-x' made...("Welcome to the Dark Side...Luke") but in reality maybe he should have phrased it..."Welcome to the 'Bright-Side'!"... As the amp seems to have been living 'under the curse' of the 'Dark-Side' up until now!

The 'stock' sound of channel-2 'smeared' the bass and midrange hopelessly together...and it was very hard to find any clear definition in either range. Granted; (post mod) the bass on channel-2 can still get a 'tad' flabby (it is Just like channel-1 after all)...but if anyone loves channel-1 as much as I do...then they can certainly live with that! It can be 'dialed out' to an extent too.

The 'Hesitation' that some people feel about doing the 'mod' may lie in the doubt that anything so beneficial can possibly be so easy (well relatively easy)...you know...the old "if it sounds too good to be true...then it is"... syndrome!
Oh well...it takes 'pioneers' and a 'pioneer-like spirit' to leave the comfort of 'mediocrity' behind; to seek out and find 'the promised land'; whether it be the 'untamed wilderness' that out fore-fathers settled...or the 'Holy-Grail' of tone!

There has already been some experimentation done by others regarding changing some capacitor values in order to 'tighten up' the bass response. I know absolutely nothing about the particulars of this; but I feel quite certain that if anyone has had any success with this; that it would work 'wonderfully' on a Lone Star which has undergone the channel-2 'mod' that 'plan-x', djw, and myself have done. I invite them to post their findings...either here...or on a separate thread...but share!

Also; djw, I'm sure there are others who had their interest 'tweaked' when you mentioned that your 'tech' offered the '10-watt-mod'. Perhaps either a 'link' to contact him; and/or a detailed 'walk-through' of the modification might be appropriate. ???

If anyone is interested in the 'channel-2 mod' which we are here discussing...then go back to page #1; to my first posting...and read it. Also read 'plan-x's' reviews of his results. Read the postings that 'djw' made as well. He not only reviews the results...but he points out some of the little 'tricks' he used along the way to prepare for and do the 'mod'. I would add one thing; since you will have to reach across the chassis (and the exposed circuit board and capacitors) wear a short sleeved shirt...no sense in 'tempting fate' by having a shirt sleeve or cuff come in contact with a capacitor.

Happy 'tone-quest'! Charles
 
Hey Mick...you asked...

Mick said:
Great thread, thanks Chas. Has anybody done this or is going to do it to their LSS? I like to set up ch 2 just a little hairier than ch 1 and only use the gain for this but there still seems to be some compression or something there that I don't like. As far as the drive/thick/thicker goes, there's nothing there for me.

My response:

Well...thus far no one has 'confessed' to doing this to a LSS...yet... though the results 'should be' pretty similar. You can pretty well bet that someone has though...and just isn't 'sharing' their findings. Ask yourself 'Why' anyone would do this. I did... and figured it out.

...BTW Mick; go back and read 'djw's findings with the 'drive' after the 'mod'. He speaks of how he can 'now' hear the actual interaction of the 'gain' and 'drive' upon each other.
Before doing the 'mod'; I could barely stand to use the 'thick/thicker' option. Also, I scarcely used the 'drive' above the lowest settings; because the sound got so 'cluttered'!...
You may well find a whole new range of usable range opens up to you after the 'mod'...I certainly did.

You will most certainly get (the ability to 'dial in' a slightly 'hairier' version of channel-1)...but you'll get a whole lot more too! One thing you WILL NOT get is 'UNWANTED COMPRESSION'. You will be in control.

Regards: Charles
 
Charles Reeder said:
Also; djw, I'm sure there are others who had their interest 'tweaked' when you mentioned that your 'tech' offered the '10-watt-mod'. Perhaps either a 'link' to contact him; and/or a detailed 'walk-through' of the modification might be appropriate. ???

Yes, I guess I should probably clarify: the guy who does my amp work doesn't have a web site or advertise or anything, he's just a guy with his own one-man business. He's done all of my amp work over the years, on my various Marshalls when I was a rock star as well as restoring my old Deluxe later. He's a real wizard with amplification and he's pretty much the go-to guy for most of the big names from around here, so he gets a lot of high-end and specialized requests (and rightfully charges accordingly).

Also, to further clarify right now he doesn't precisely "offer" this mod. To date, he has never actually worked on or heard a Lone Star, though he's been hearing good things about them. I asked him if he could do this, and he said it probably wouldn't be a problem, as long as the circuit wasn't designed in some weird way. He's getting ahold of the schematics, and hopefully by the time I bring it to him he'll be ready.

That's a month away, because he's backed up (he's not short of work). So hopefully it'll all go smoothly and within the estimate he gave me. I have ultimate confidence in him, so I'm looking forward to giving my report here. I'll also ask him if he would mind me advertising for him here -- again, he probably doesn't need it, but perhaps at least I can provide some helpful info for you to provide your local amp technician. My guess, however, is any amp tech worth his or her salt won't need my help.
:)

I'll pipe in later when it happens. I can't wait! With this and the Reeder, it'll be the perfect amp!
 
Well, four days ago I, along with my amp guy, did the mod. I played around with it for two days on various settings and yep Charles was right, channel two becomes an almost identical clone of channel one. One of the things that I really liked about channel two before the mod was that it had an inherent mid-range sound. I know some say this muddies it up but for me and my type of music I kinda liked it. We play allot of jazz, standards and soft rock type chording and it just seemed to sound really good with our archtops. The other thing the mid-range does is give you a different overdrive sound when the drive is engaged and again I know some people think it's too midrangey but I personally think it sounds thicker and has more depth. So to make a long story short, I (we) changed it back to the original configuration. It was fun and now I know what it sounds like with the mod.
 
I confess, I just played thru my LSS for about 20 min. after completing the "Reeder Mod". Not very long playing time but I'm 99.999% sure it's going to stay this way.

Getting results as described. Pretty much a ch 1 clone but when you add gain or drive, the compression or darkness isn't there. You still get all the 3D spank, sparkle and chime if you want it only with the amount of gain,grit,balls that you choose.

One thing I noticed that seemed odd is that in ch2 with the drive toggle set on clean, (which dis-engaged the drive feature I thought), you can hear the very slightest boost in drive if you switch the other toggle from normal to thicker. No variance from normal to thick however. This really has no bearing on its use, just something I noticed while messing with it.

I need to get a good hour or 2 playing with this to see what I can do with it but for now I'm glad I did it.
 
Very interesting thread!!

I read it all in one round so I apologize in advance if I missed some important details.

There are 2 things that caught my eye:
- a) I don't recall too many people saying what guitar they are playing with the Lone Star. It could well be that people that like Channel 2 are the ones that are using some specific pups (humbuckers or single coils, for instance) and the ones that dislike it are using just the opposite.
It would be great if some of you would elaborate a little bit more on the subject.
- b) agreeing with some people here that it doesn't seem to hurt to have 2 non-identical channels, I wonder why nobody thought of changing speakers before exchanging pots. Will the muddiness disappear by removing the Celestion 90 and mounting an EVM 12L?

Sorry if I am rowing against the flow of this thread but I would really try to understand the rationale of it because I guess I am missing something.
Thanks and best regards
Daniel
 
If you go back and check out a bunch of the LSS and LSC threads you'll see lots of discussion on speaker swaps, NOS tube swaps and single coils vs humbuckers. I replaced the C90's with Celestion Golds, prior to them,webers and tone tubbies. I could've easily "lived" with ch2 as it was with the Golds but for my current tastes it's as good as it gets now. Also, playing singl coil ASAT most of the time but like my LP mini 'buckers too.

Nice thing about this "mod" is that it's very simple to perform. It took me about 1 1/2 hrs start to finish working slow and steady and was the 1st time I ever removed the chassis from an amplifier. Point being it's easily reversable and the only cost is your time.
 
That is why I am curious to know why people are not discussing these issues in THIS thread, a therad that seems to be a much more in-depth thread about Lone Stars.
Regards
 
gfraso:

I used my stock Bogner cabs both alone and together (split). They are loaded with well broken-in V30's. No need to experiment because this is what I use on stage, The Lonestar with effects provided by a Eventide H8000 and controller. For studio work set-up is different using Pro Tools but the sound remains very close.

We used a variety of instruments including humbuckers, P90's and SC's.

My decision to switch back the mod was based on my personal preference of liking the difference in channel sounds on all my instruments. I know I will probably be in the minority but I just liked the sound of channel 2 in it's original configuration based on my live and studio set-up.
 
Mick said:
One thing I noticed that seemed odd is that in ch2 with the drive toggle set on clean, (which dis-engaged the drive feature I thought), you can hear the very slightest boost in drive if you switch the other toggle from normal to thicker. No variance from normal to thick however. This really has no bearing on its use, just something I noticed while messing with it.

I need to get a good hour or 2 playing with this to see what I can do with it but for now I'm glad I did it.

The thick/normal/thicker works on ch 2 regardless of the drive control. It's a high frequency filter/boost of sort. It works on the high frequency. You need to turn the treble to atleast 2'o to start hearing the effect.
 
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