Local dealer tells me not to buy a Boogie!

[Chris F]

Although I am not a very good guitar player, I am certainly not tone deaf. I believe I can tell the difference between a good and a decent sound. I've also had a few amps being tortured by my playing, including Marshall, Vox and Fenders. My latest amp is a Mesa Boogie Lonestar Special, and ampwise, I couldn't be happier.

I am pretty meticulous in my approach to researching things before I by them. Afterall, its half the fun. At the finish line, I was torn between the Lonestar and a Budda. The store owner told me he would take the Lonestar over the Budda any day (he is not an official Mesa dealer), this based on what you get for your money. His store has a very good reputation for their quality gear, service and repairs. He was also very knowledgable. I don't regret walking out that door with the Lonestar.

If one thinks about quality control, the deduction is a rather simple one (at least for me). Mesa is built in Petaluma, CA, by an amp maker who continuously oushes the envelope for what players can expect of a decent tube amp. They have a five year warranty on their product. I also have a Vox AC30 CC2. It is made in China. Wasn't cheap either. Look at the first rounds of these amps shipped to Europe and the U.S. How many of them didn't have problems, especially in build quality? QC? Was all the workers in China trained in the U.K. to build Vox amps in the spirit and quality of Tom Jennings (well the desire for an amp with the vox sound but good and reliable is probably more responsible for starting the high-end boutique race than we'd like to know)? My Vox is still in a meticulous condition potentially due to the fact that it has not been played much and is safely stored back in Europe while I live in the States for a few years. To get good sounds out of the Vox (which you will get) took just as much tweaking with the knobs as the Lonestar, if not more. Orange amps are in-vogue now. They've also moved part of their production to China. I am not being pejorative to products from China, but I prefer my amp coming from Petaluma, or if it is a Vox or Orange, the U.K. Why? Quality. BTW, have anyone here tried to change tubes on a Vox AC30 CC2? Its like being a hobby car mechanic in the Midwest of the U.S., and then among all the Chevy's, Fords and Dodges, suddenly have a French Renault or Peugeot turn up. You just know then that this will keep you busy for an unforseeable amount of time (or it may just be my skills).

I had a marshall amp too which I sold. There was so much tube rattle from it when I played power chords and the lower strings that the amp sounded a bit like 'jingle bells' (slight exaggeration ). It annoyed me so much, that when a very reputable store in the U.K. couldn't fix it, I sold it. I still like the marshall tone (Stiletto Ace next?).

My fenders have been decent, but less "inspirational" than the Lonestar. Much more tonal fun with that one.

Bottom line is, after a long and potentially boring story, motivation for recommending certain products and bashing others are usually financial. Money talks. Despite having had a relatively short relationship with Mesa's, I can't point my finger to anything I am unhappy with.

 

[Grendeltone]

That is a great post...

I agree completely..

 

[recto-robbie]

Just the other day I bought a Marshall JVM 410H, their newest model.
I sold my ROV and being between amps and more than a little confused I thought I would give the Marshall a spin. I wound up returning it in less than 24 hours , not because of the sound but because I could just see major problems in the future. Granted I had no problems in the short time I had it,, but I just knew, one day soon they would arise.
Well luckily for me, I tried the stiletto series amps. I never thought of even trying them for some reason, but I fell in love with the
Duece stage II. Not only for its better sound than the Marshall, but the undeniable feeling of quality and reliability. I cant even picture something going wrong with this head. It also seemed by far a much more proffesional feeling and looking amp to me. Ive owned 4 boogies so far and everyone of them has been completely problem free and they all seemed solid as a rock.
The day after I bought the Marshall,, I walked into the guitar center, it was only 11:30am and there couldnt have been more than 5 customers in the whole store. I walked through the boogie section like always and noticed they seemed to have more of them than normal. I also noticed that of the 20 or so amps they had there, 7 of them were on with no one around.
My first introduction to the stiletto series was an ace sitting there with its gain maxed out, left running,, full on,,, not in standby even,,, I also found two lonestars left completely on,,,, with no one around. I couldnt believe it. I wound up turning them all off and walked out of there.
I wound up calling a small neighborhood type store which was a boogie dealer and they had a very nice selection of most currently made
mesas. This is where I found my Deuce. Looking pretty with hardly a fingerprint on it. When I told the owner I wanted it he came back with the Deuces actual original box, all paper work, footswitch and cables and cover. Try getting all that on some floor model at the local GC.
I will never again buy another proffesional expensive amp from any of the large chain stores. With Mesa having their fixed price no matter where you buy it from,, it only makes sence to do business with a dealer who actually cares about the products they sell.

 

[clutch71]

One comment on the whole of this post...GC are great for trying stuff out. I have a GC in Columbus (Not a Mesa dealer) and periodically visit the one in Cleveland (Mesa Dealer). I stop in GC's all over the country.

While their prices are great I still prefer local music stores. The Mesa dealer in Columbus, Lang Music actually call me when they get new/used Mesa stuff in. Would GC do that? No way and they know my budget is tight they just want me to have a good customer experience. They know when the right piece comes in I'll buy it. I've bought my Flying V, my 5150, and my 2x12 Rectifier cab there.

Liphams in Gainesville(where I sit right now btw) showed me to the amp room and turned me loose. Not once did theybother, pester, or offer advice. I asked a couple of quick questions and I left.

My point is local music stores seem to do better with personalized customer service. GC seems to be driven by their bottom line. One thing I always notice at GC is "Hey that's a great amp, but have you tried..." and it's always something more expensive.

Robie - You sold the ROV? Man I thought those two would really complimetn each other but I totally understand from a financial stand point. PM me on how she's working out and share some settings so I can try em out next time I sit down with one.

 

[StratTone]

I have a friend at GC and he tells me they have so much trouble selling the mesa stuff. There is just a big back lash on mesa right now, everyone is so tired of the tone and want something different. Most people are looking at the marshall's or oranges.

If you look at what is "popular" in the music scene, allt hese bands are switching to marshall or marshall type amps.

yeah I am seeing that trend as well but I have always been a Marhsall/Fender guy. I just picked up my Triple because the price was right and I like to try new things. I'm not digging the Triple at all but that doesn't mean I hate Mesa's by any means. Just that I don't think I did Rectos.

 

[Restless Rocks]

none the less..... there is probably a practical reason for the design but who the hell turns the output up all the way? just doesnt make sense to me

Yeah, it seems stupid, but... on the other hand, it wouldn't be impossible to build a circuit that cut out or blew the fuse before the amp started smoking, you know what I mean?

absolutely.... hey randall if your reading you should look into this... make it kiddy proof.... but seriously in good design whether its amps or programs you have to build that in

No Randall please keep making amps for intelligent, creative, artistic professionals and make sure you don't have any idiots working at your dealerships who can't spot a Crate customer when they see one. I'm pretty sure also that authorized dealers are suppose to assist the customers rather than let retards distroy equipment on the floor that some deserving young guitarist somewhere would die for.

 

[JoeEllison]

No Randall please keep making amps for intelligent, creative, artistic professionals and make sure you don't have any idiots working at your dealerships who can't spot a Crate customer when they see one. I'm pretty sure also that authorized dealers are suppose to assist the customers rather than let retards distroy equipment on the floor that some deserving young guitarist somewhere would die for.

That's an incredibly hateful and wrong-headed attitude you've got there. Especially wrong-headed if you love making music for the sake of making music and if you feel any sort of connection with others who make music. Who are you to say that some people are "Crate customers", or that there's anything wrong with playing a Crate amp at all?

 

[CoG]

Even worse, you take a Line6, plug ANY guitar into it, and it sounds exactly like Linkin Park on an IPod-- so, must be good, right...?

Just stupid, go play through your line 6 and spare us your gayness.

Um, dude... sarcasm...? Linkin Park on an IPod sounds like digitized ***. So does a Line6. But if you don't know any better, and you only ever hear music on ripped MP3s or Myspace, that's what sounds good. That's why kids make a beeline for the Line6s in the music stores... plug and play (badly.)

 

[JoeEllison]

Um, dude... sarcasm...? Linkin Park on an IPod sounds like digitized ***. So does a Line6. But if you don't know any better, and you only ever hear music on ripped MP3s or Myspace, that's what sounds good. That's why kids make a beeline for the Line6s in the music stores... plug and play (badly.)

Hey, there's nothing wrong with Line6 either. It is good for what it is, and certainly there's a place for it in the world of music. Not everyone has the money for 3-4 different amplifiers and a whole pedalboard of effects. Not everyone lives in a situation where they can crank a halfstack any time of the day or night. And, most people don't have the capacity to set up an entire recording studio in their garage.

 

[CoG]

Um, dude... sarcasm...? Linkin Park on an IPod sounds like digitized ***. So does a Line6. But if you don't know any better, and you only ever hear music on ripped MP3s or Myspace, that's what sounds good. That's why kids make a beeline for the Line6s in the music stores... plug and play (badly.)

Hey, there's nothing wrong with Line6 either. It is good for what it is, and certainly there's a place for it in the world of music. Not everyone has the money for 3-4 different amplifiers and a whole pedalboard of effects. Not everyone lives in a situation where they can crank a halfstack any time of the day or night. And, most people don't have the capacity to set up an entire recording studio in their garage.

I dunno... I used to think that until I actually played a couple Line6 amps and discovered that it actually doesn't matter what guitar you plug in, you get pretty much the same weird post-processed sound, just kind of thinner or fatter. It's like playing a guitar synth (or Guitar Hero) or something. I mean, I understand why they do it, it' s just sad.

 

[JoeEllison]

I dunno... I used to think that until I actually played a couple Line6 amps and discovered that it actually doesn't matter what guitar you plug in, you get pretty much the same weird post-processed sound, just kind of thinner or fatter. It's like playing a guitar synth (or Guitar Hero) or something. I mean, I understand why they do it, it' s just sad.

Do you feel better about your gear by insulting other people's gear?

 

[Rampage]

Line 6 has a processed sound, but it isn't horrible. I definitely don't like the lower end of their product line, but when you get to the Vetta IIs you definitely have a pretty good amp. They may not sound exactly like what they are modeling, but they sound pretty close and for the money there aren't a whole lot of amps as versatile.

 

[CoG]

I dunno... I used to think that until I actually played a couple Line6 amps and discovered that it actually doesn't matter what guitar you plug in, you get pretty much the same weird post-processed sound, just kind of thinner or fatter. It's like playing a guitar synth (or Guitar Hero) or something. I mean, I understand why they do it, it' s just sad.

Do you feel better about your gear by insulting other people's gear?

Whoah buddy.

Line6 amps, and pretty much every digital modeler, are more of an interface device than an amplifier (and a good amplifier is an instrument as much as it's an amplifier.)

I use Guitar Rig 2, but I don't kid myself that it's a replacement for, you know, an actual guitar rig for guitar-oriented music, or that it plays or responds in a way similar to even a pretty cheap amp even if you can make the result *sound* like one.

 

[CoG]

Line 6 has a processed sound, but it isn't horrible. I definitely don't like the lower end of their product line, but when you get to the Vetta IIs you definitely have a pretty good amp. They may not sound exactly like what they are modeling, but they sound pretty close and for the money there aren't a whole lot of amps as versatile.

I think what I'm getting at is the whole interface-versus-amp idea. I find the experience of playing modeled stuff really weird and non-inspiring. You play something, it sounds a certain way, and then you change the way you're playing it and it still seems to sound the same compared to a non-modeled amp.

 

[JoeEllison]

Line 6 has a processed sound, but it isn't horrible. I definitely don't like the lower end of their product line, but when you get to the Vetta IIs you definitely have a pretty good amp. They may not sound exactly like what they are modeling, but they sound pretty close and for the money there aren't a whole lot of amps as versatile.

And, to be fair, most non-musicians can't tell the difference anyway, so they are great for live performances, especially for a cover band. Hell, people are used to hearing music in a digital format anyway, so I think a lot of audiences would prefer a Line6 amp getting the exact sound they hear on the CD, then hear the best tube amp in the world that has a completely different sonic footprint than the amp used on the CD.

 

[oyster]

[RANT ON]

Since we're talking about Line6's flagship Vetta,

True, non-musicians can't tell the difference usually and audiences may even prefer something like Vetta that can approach more closely what they hear on an mp3.

True, Vetta is possibly the most versatile amp out there.

True, Vetta tone isn't outstanding but is a decent approximation for everything it models.

I've seen guitarists supposedly devoted to the craft and to great tone, settle on this tradeoff. I personally think it is a shame. And it is especially sad that so many (younger) guitar players probably won't even get the chance to play through a good tube amp and make it their own... The digital modelers seem to be taking over the market and it's the first thing they try and buy (cheaper price, convenience, versatility). The trend will continue, but even as technology gets better, a digital process will never perfectly emulate what we can get from a well made analog tube amp - it is physically impossible.

I don't feel better about myself by criticizing other peoples' choices in gear, but when I've been down a long road I will share my perspective! In the end as much as I enjoyed direct recording and all the different models, I couldn't get the satisfying tubelike harmonic content and thickness from my Vetta no matter what model I used and how I EQ'D things, etc. Great versatility wasn't enough to keep me owning Vetta in the absence of outstanding tone. So, after 3 years of tweaking I went to Mesa & Soldano to get the REAL THING. Sure, these amps each have a characteristic sound of their own, which can be considered a limitation in flexibility, but the TONE is so much more satisfying to me and those who understand...

[RANT OFF] :roll:

 

[JoeEllison]

I know I've completely hijacked my own thread here...

I'll tell you something though. I think all the modeling is great and awesome, in that it allows newer players to get a lot of acceptable sounds at a reasonable price. Just think about how horrible those Gorilla practice amps sounded 15-20 years ago, and how much they cost. Paying $100-150 back then, for a little POS 15W solid state amp that couldn't do anything or sound worth anything, versus now where you can spend $300 and get a 75W Spider combo that will sound like something, and has a mess of built-in effects too? How can that not be exciting?

All things being equal, a fancy boutique tube amp will sound better than a digital modeler. But, really, all things are NOT equal, are they? Plus, once you consider how much signal processing is going on anyways with rack effects and such, it is a little ridiculous to claim that there is a significant difference between that and amp modeling. Running your guitar through a dozen effects and then using your high-end tube amp as a glorified PA speaker is hardly a "purist" mentality, but few people attack that.

I'm absolutely not knocking tube amps... I'm about to spend a mint on a new Mesa, which is what led me to this site in the first place. I'm just saying that there seems to be a ridiculous amount of snobbery about the digital stuff that seems out of all proportion to me.

 

[Jak0lantern01]

Even GC sales people are guilty of Mesa bashing at times. I recently went to do an A/B between the new 5150III and the Road King. Mr. Knowledgeable tells me the 5150III is way better in versatility and tone, and that would certainly be untrue in most opinion polls.

Another GC rep, different location, tells me the new $1,700 Marshall I'm playing is all that over the Roadster head. So I plug in the Roadster, and yet another GC rep is guilty of speaking with forked tongue.

I have purchased most of my Mesa gear from GC, new and used. Same goes for Fender and Marshall stuff.

Can't we all just get along?

Lemme tell ya' something: I was in GC about a week and a half ago, tested a Diezel, a Roadster, and a Marshall JVM410. Both the Diezel and the Marshall ate the Roadster for breakfast, lunch, dinner, and even had a bit for dessert (they needed dessert room for all the Crates laying around). I play a Recto, and like it, but the Marshall was pure badass in tone. Speaking of tone, it took me all of 30 seconds on the Marshall to dial in a good tone, can't say that about our beloved Mesa's, can we now? This is a Mesa board, but be a little objective.

 

[JoeEllison]

Lemme tell ya' something: I was in GC about a week and a half ago, tested a Diezel, a Roadster, and a Marshall JVM410. Both the Diezel and the Marshall ate the Roadster for breakfast, lunch, dinner, and even had a bit for dessert (they needed dessert room for all the Crates laying around). I play a Recto, and like it, but the Marshall was pure badass in tone. Speaking of tone, it took me all of 30 seconds on the Marshall to dial in a good tone, can't say that about our beloved Mesa's, can we now? This is a Mesa board, but be a little objective.

That's just funny...

 

[Jak0lantern01]

One comment on the whole of this post...GC are great for trying stuff out. I have a GC in Columbus (Not a Mesa dealer) and periodically visit the one in Cleveland (Mesa Dealer). I stop in GC's all over the country.

While their prices are great I still prefer local music stores. The Mesa dealer in Columbus, Lang Music actually call me when they get new/used Mesa stuff in. Would GC do that? No way and they know my budget is tight they just want me to have a good customer experience. They know when the right piece comes in I'll buy it. I've bought my Flying V, my 5150, and my 2x12 Rectifier cab there.

Liphams in Gainesville(where I sit right now btw) showed me to the amp room and turned me loose. Not once did theybother, pester, or offer advice. I asked a couple of quick questions and I left.

My point is local music stores seem to do better with personalized customer service. GC seems to be driven by their bottom line. One thing I always notice at GC is "Hey that's a great amp, but have you tried..." and it's always something more expensive.

Robie - You sold the ROV? Man I thought those two would really complimetn each other but I totally understand from a financial stand point. PM me on how she's working out and share some settings so I can try em out next time I sit down with one.

My local GC has called me twice about the arrivals of new Mesa's, they have me on a list and have been good about keeping in touch. Just to be fair here.