I have a theory (Mark IIC+ Content)

[theroan]

Hey bros,

So here's my theory.

Lesterpaul did the big shoot out between the Mark V and the Mark IIC+. From what I can tell the big thing that separated the two was the "Pull Deep" feature of the Mark IIC+.

http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=46467

From the thread above I was able to ascertain the frequency being used in the pull deep feature.

So my theory, and if anyone who owns a Mark IIC+ and a Mark V want to test is, can we close the gap on the two by adding a parametric eq to the loop of a Mark V that boosts the frequency range between 17.75Hz and 50Hz by 5.5dbs.

Maybe the simplest option is the best one. I'm going to buy one of those older Boss Parametric Eq's that goes down to 18Hz and see how it sounds.

 

[JOEY B.]

In my opinion, and I'm just throwing this out there, is that you are barking up the wrong tree. From my experiences with the Mark V in the original shootout and two other occasions, the Mark I mode(with approved Mafia settings) is better than anything channel 3 has to offer if you are wanting a heavy rhythm sound. Keep in mind we were looking to really enhance the tone of the guitar, and not cover it up with gobs of saturation.

If you go back and read the original shootout thread, you will notice that the closest channel 1 setting compared to a DRG C+ was tweed(no EQ) with very low gain and lots of channel volume. This combined with the Mark I settings(heavy rhythm) and the Mark IV with the Preset EQ dialed to taste for singing leads would be my choice, ALL DAY LONG.

Another factor in the equation is the use of the EVM-12L theile cabs. These speakers will tell you the good, bad, and the ugly about anything in your signal chain. This includes any outboard effects and such. I try to keep my setup as simple as possible, just because of that fact.

Good luck on your tone quest.

JB

 

[Chance0]

Note that most guitars don't output musical frequencies below 70 Hz for 6-string guitars (depending on tuning) or 60 Hz for 7 string guitars. 18 Hz is subsonic.

Try a parametric EQ and test the center frequency of low boost. You'll likely find good results at around 70 Hz @ +6 dB.

 

[domct203]

Note that most guitars don't output musical frequencies below 70 Hz for 6-string guitars (depending on tuning) or 60 Hz for 7 string guitars. 18 Hz is subsonic.

Try a parametric EQ and test the center frequency of low boost. You'll likely find good results at around 70 Hz @ +6 dB.

+1

Most guitar speakers won't produce anything usable under 50 Hz anyway, and in a band situation the kick drum and bass are there. IMO you'll be spending money and time on something that adds no musical value.

Dom

 

[theroan]

Well there has to be a reason they made the pull deep affect that frequency.

 

[germangallardo]

In my opinion, and I'm just throwing this out there, is that you are barking up the wrong tree. From my experiences with the Mark V in the original shootout and two other occasions, the Mark I mode(with approved Mafia settings) is better than anything channel 3 has to offer if you are wanting a heavy rhythm sound. Keep in mind we were looking to really enhance the tone of the guitar, and not cover it up with gobs of saturation.

Are the approved Mafia settings the ones posted by lesterpaul in the settings thread? If not, would you care to point me in the right direction? I havent really got a sweet spot on the Mark I mode. I'm running a combo with stock 6L6.

Thanks!

 

[lesterpaul]

hey theroan-keep in mind,when we compared the two, we did not utilize the pull deep on the C+-the descrepancy would have been larger...I am thinking you are looking for a way to create a pull deep via eq pedal for the V?
..and yes,germ...those are the correct settings we used for mk I

 

[JOEY B.]

Are the approved Mafia settings the ones posted by lesterpaul in the settings thread? If not, would you care to point me in the right direction? I havent really got a sweet spot on the Mark I mode. I'm running a combo with stock 6L6.

Thanks!

Yeah, those are the settings. The first trial run was done with the stock tubes in the amp. A few minor tweaks were made for the EL-34's that are pictured in the settings thread. Nothing drastic, just a bump here and a nudge there. I suspect the open back combo to be the culprit in your struggles with the Mark I mode. The closed back, thiele ported, EV loaded cabs that were used in the shootout, sound much different than an open back Celestion cab. The low frequencies are deeper and tighter with the EV thiele , and this range is where most people are having trouble with the Mark I mode.

 

[JOEY B.]

hey theroan-keep in mind,when we compared the two, we did not utilize the pull deep on the C+

Oh yes I did. :twisted: After the manual comparison settings were tried, I turned up the wick, so to speak. I told you and Jay that "Old Smokey" was going to come out swinging for the shootout. Of course, if it had not been for all the smack talked in the Mark V manual, I might have been a little more forgiving. Or not. 8)

 

[phyrexia]

the frequency range between 17.75Hz and 50Hz by 5.5dbs.

How did you ascertain that?

 

[germangallardo]

@Lesterpaul @Joey B

Thanks for replying so fast. I'm gonna try those settings! I appreciate the work you guys did to get them.

On another note, would you think a widebody closed cab would work in a similar way? I know it's another C90. To be quite honest, I dont know much about speakers. I'm looking for one to stack the combo, maybe Portcity would be another option to check out. I want it to sound and look balanced hehe.

Thanks again.

 

[theroan]

the frequency range between 17.75Hz and 50Hz by 5.5dbs.

How did you ascertain that?

From the thread I quoted in the first post.

Since the IIC+ V2A cathode on that circuit is already bypassed with a .47uf cap, switching in the 15uf cap does not add more gain
per se but voices the cathode circuit to pass much more lows through the stage. The frequency should be centered around
17.75Hz with a 1K cathode resistor and 15uf (14.53uf in parallel with .47uf) bypass cap.

 

[phyrexia]

I did see that, but it is obvious from Chip's graph that this isn't all that happens. "Centered" at 17hz does not mean only 17-50hz is boosted.

What chip suggested,

Or, if you've got a common Graphic Eq Pedal like the Boss GE-7, you could try something like...

100Hz: +5.5 dB (ie. up to the first of its three tick marks)
200Hz: +4 dB (up to just shy of the first tick mark)
400Hz: +2 dB (just above the center)
800Hz and Above: Zero.

is a much more accurate representation of what needs to be done.

 

[JOEY B.]

Since the IIC+ V2A cathode on that circuit is already bypassed with a .47uf cap, switching in the 15uf cap does not add more gain
per se but voices the cathode circuit to pass much more lows through the stage. The frequency should be centered around
17.75Hz with a 1K cathode resistor and 15uf (14.53uf in parallel with .47uf) bypass cap.

Something that has not been brought up yet is the wattage of speaker cabs being used in the comparison(A pair of EVM 200 watters for each amp). For the original shootout, the question came up about the differing EQ curves for the low freq. sliders. The respone was given that use of the pull deep on the C+ was the reason that the EQ curves looked so different. Unless you wanted some outlandish bass response, AND had the speakers to handle it, this may all be just for discussion only. That being said, a 2x12 Recto cab with 140 watts power handling may noy be able to take the EQ plus the "pull deep alternative" at louder volume levels.

I hate to see people spend money, and then regret it. Best of luck.

 

[phyrexia]

Anyway, it's not all that important, as you can cut the other frequencies enough to make it "deep" and then compensate with overall volume. which is what i've been trying to tell people for a long time (graphic EQs are best utilized when cutting frequencies, not boosting them. not to say boosting is bad, but then with my method I work the power section harder and it all sounds just awesome to me.)

as bright as these amps are, I don't understand how some of you guys are running straight Vs. my 2200 and 6600 are always lower than my 80 and 240. I suppose it must be the 4x12 effect coupled with my MS-12/EV combo. Or maybe I just like moar midz