how to mic up mkiv

[overwater]

hi
we just bought a pa for all the band to go through :twisted:
i was just wondering what peoples opinions are for micing the mk iv up,
what mics, or direct in from the recording out.
i have a ev in the combo and 2 c90 in a cab,
will the ev maybe a bit sharp sounding and maybe micing up the c90
be better,
any views and suggestions would be appreciated cos i am new to this side of it, thanks

 

[ytse_jam]

hi overwater, i would go with micing the amp, i think it's better than taking the signal from recording out... C90s should have a rounder tone, and it should be a good idea to mic them. But if you have got some problems in cutting through the mix you could better mic the ElectroVoice in my opinion. I hope someone else will help you with the mic choice since i'm not an expert.

 

[overwater]

thanks for the info ytse_jam i,ll try the c 90 next rehearsal

 

[Boogiebabies]

Try two mics. One off the center cone of the EV and one closer to the cone of the C-90. You have to notice that speaker cabinets are very directional creatures and emit sound directly/straight out of the cabinet.
With this being the case, the highs shoot right out of the center of the speaker and stay there. If you have also ever moved around a cabinet and found a great tone standing in a certain spot and cannot believe it, the chance are when you get in the direction of the front of the speaker cab, the highs will start shooting at you again. Try a mix of off center and close to center and move them around until you hit the sweet spot where you get a mix of fatness and some sizzle. Also, try a few different mics, but usually two SM-57's will work very nicely.

 

[Boogiebabies]

hi overwater, i would go with micing the amp, i think it's better than taking the signal from recording out... C90s should have a rounder tone, and it should be a good idea to mic them. But if you have got some problems in cutting through the mix you could better mic the ElectroVoice in my opinion. I hope someone else will help you with the mic choice since i'm not an expert.

I agree. That EV will cut the heads of cows, clean. I mic these away from the voice coil. It's a huge sounding speaker with a very dynamic frequency responce. A very true representation of what the amp is actually producing. So true in fact I have been looking for speakers with smaller voice coils to tame the IIC+'s. The G-Flex 2X12 has been the biggest improvement. It's huge and not too trebly. I still have temptations of sticking two EV-12L's in there just for a test. I could only imagine it would crush cans and shake floors.

 

[ytse_jam]

hi overwater, i would go with micing the amp, i think it's better than taking the signal from recording out... C90s should have a rounder tone, and it should be a good idea to mic them. But if you have got some problems in cutting through the mix you could better mic the ElectroVoice in my opinion. I hope someone else will help you with the mic choice since i'm not an expert.

I agree. That EV will cut the heads of cows, clean. I mic these away from the voice coil. It's a huge sounding speaker with a very dynamic frequency responce. A very true representation of what the amp is actually producing. So true in fact I have been looking for speakers with smaller voice coils to tame the IIC+'s. The G-Flex 2X12 has been the biggest improvement. It's huge and not too trebly. I still have temptations of sticking two EV-12L's in there just for a test. I could only imagine it would crush cans and shake floors.

boogiebabies, would you mind explaining how voice coil diameter affects tone? thanks

 

[Boogiebabies]

The smaller the coil, the narrower the treble will beam out.

 

[mesanomad100]

Yeh I agree with boogiebabies,You want to mic the EV off axis away from the center of the cone as the highs will be too much for the mixing desk to control(or will enoy the sound guy who in return will make you sound s**t,trust me Ive been a sound guy for several years).You want to give the engineer lots of control,I would suggest at sound checks to get out infront of the house speaker(if possible).Yeh try find that sweet spot,nearer the rim of the speaker where it is tighter and more responsive.I wouls also suggest taking a shure SM57 with you at all times,these are great versitile mic,loved the world over.Hope this helps!!! :lol:

 

[Boogiebabies]

Yeh I agree with boogiebabies,You want to mic the EV off axis away from the center of the cone as the highs will be too much for the mixing desk to control(or will enoy the sound guy who in return will make you sound s**t,trust me Ive been a sound guy for several years).You want to give the engineer lots of control,I would suggest at sound checks to get out infront of the house speaker(if possible).Yeh try find that sweet spot,nearer the rim of the speaker where it is tighter and more responsive.I wouls also suggest taking a shure SM57 with you at all times,these are great versitile mic,loved the world over.Hope this helps!!! :lol:

Eye, you have cleared me of being a toerag. I feel jammy to have met you.
Now I'll head over to the pub and get blootered.

 

[eltrain858]

to slightly change the focus...

of my widebody combo and widebody 1x12" ext cab, which one should I mic? anyone have experience with these cabs?

 

[mesanomad100]

eltrain858,are those cabs open or closed back.To change the focus I would experiment with different mics and there placement.I would probably mic the combo,I dunno why but prefferably Id mic em both obviously having the 2 mics in different places to expand your tonal pallet and to give a good mixed sound.

 

[Dutchman]

All great Ideas. I recently trialed 2 Sennheiser 906's (not the 609's) and was blown away. They made my SM57's sound anemic. They are more expensive but IMHO worth it.

Ok now that your miking your sound.
This is from the Sound man in me. You don't need 2 Cabinets unless it's outdoors or a 300+ venue. Smaller venues need less stage volume to get a great overall mix. Usually the drummer sets the actual live volume, and their a ***** to turn down. Kick drum is always my first item to dial in.
Don't mike your Bass players amp/speaker, run a direct line from a direct box to a compressor and then to the mixing console. Squeezing the Bass is going to smooth out the mix, and give the soundman lots of control of the bottom end.

Now for your setup.
I would just use the Cabinet and not use the speaker in the combo. Our visa versa depending on the tone you want.

As far as mic placement I prefer off center and 2-4" away from the speaker.

Remember, your not cutting through the ambient room noise from the stage anymore, the P.A. is. So a good mix out front is the key.
Keep your amp closer to you if possible.
Always go out front and listen to your tone through the mains during sound check. The sound man may have you sounding like a screech Owl out front while you think your copping a supertone on stage. This will let your soundman know your idea of good tone also.


Just my 2 cents

 

[Os]

Dutchman makes an excellent point with regard to stage volume and size of venue. The more volume you throw off stage into a small venue, the less control you leave with the sound tech. This is something too many players would choose to forget and generally it's their audiences who suffer the consequences.
Miking multiple speakers can be ineffective unless the tech knows exactly how you want them blended. If I'm working with a guitarist for the first time, then I want to listen for a moment to the sound he's creating on stage before making decisions about mic placement. Sometimes you need that centre miking, though closer to the rim is generally a much more pleasing source.
I still use 57s and it's not a bad idea for a guitarist who cares to carry his own. They're certainly not expensive and there's not much sense investing time and money in your rig to watch it get miked up with something that's left over from the spare drum rig. I don't know the Sennheiser 906 but I used to love the 409 when I could lay hands on one. Sometimes, I use an old Beta 57 for a healthy dose of balls.
One point on which I would beg to differ. When I've got the channels, I mike the bass and DI it. The DI is obviously easier to work with but to my ear the bass often lacks vitality without the sound of the speaker.

-Thirty years a sound tech and still able to make whole sentences...most of the time -

 

[eltrain858]

Guess I should have been more specific, I'm not the guy mic'ing up for the PA in rehearsals.

I'm wondering more about recording, both in the studio and for live recordings.

My question was as to whether anyone had experience mic'ing an open-back combo or an open-back 1x12 ext cab and had a preference either way?

 

[phyrexia]

If I had the option of micing an open back combo or an open back speaker cab, all other things being equal, I would mic the cab because there's less likelyhood of picking up any rattling.

Rereading some things, seeing as you have a IV you may want to get as far away from that fan as possible if you are doing serious recording work.

You might want to mic the front and the back of the cab depending on what kind of sound you're going for.

 

[eltrain858]

If I had the option of micing an open back combo or an open back speaker cab, all other things being equal, I would mic the cab because there's less likelyhood of picking up any rattling.

Rereading some things, seeing as you have a IV you may want to get as far away from that fan as possible if you are doing serious recording work.

You might want to mic the front and the back of the cab depending on what kind of sound you're going for.

That's a good point, I didn't consider the fan noise, especially for clean funky parts with lots of space in them. I tried mic'ing the back of my old amp (Flextone III xl) and had a hard time aligning phase with the mic on the front side (even afterwards, zoomed all the way in on the wave in Cubase), although in the end I stuck with the combination and its slight loss of definition because of the vastly bigger sound on some heavy dropped D rhythm parts. I used a 57 on the front and an Audix F12 (the "kick drum" mic in their Fusion sets) in the back to try and get a deep low end.

 

[eltrain858]

All great Ideas. I recently trialed 2 Sennheiser 906's (not the 609's) and was blown away. They made my SM57's sound anemic. They are more expensive but IMHO worth it.

For the 906's, did you use a mic-stand or just drape them? In my naive mind I'm imagining the draped mic bouncing back and forth off of the grill while the amp is thumping... I'm pricing them out right now with my hook-up at local GC, but a guy on eBay has them new for $145 including shipping, hard to beat!

 

[Dutchman]

I use a boom mike stand. That way I can position them for best sound, at least to my ear. They are really close in sound to the old 409's. Great price for them too.... I use the normal position primarily live, but experiment when recording.

 

[eltrain858]

i'm taking your advice and just special ordered an e906 from my guy at GC. gonna try that along with an I5, i'm so happy with the audix drum mics i bought that i figure they deserve a shot (plus i'm getting it cheaper than a 57!)

i'll probably post some clips when i get everything situated

 

[Dutchman]

My experience has been very good with the e906. Placement is still a factor buy not not as critical as a 57.
What you hear from the cab is what shows up on the recording. For me that is major, I don't like to EQ mixes because of inaccurate equipment.
I don't know how your getting a e906 cheaper than a 57 but good job for doing it