Holy grail reverb: through loop or infront of amp>?
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Chris McKinley
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Just so's you'll know.....
Never, ever, ever, ever, ever run any reverb effect before the preamp. In fact, never run it anywhere but very last in the effects chain. The whole point of any reverb effect is to take the completed sound, including distortion, any phasing, chorusing, or delay, and then add some ambience to that sound. IOW, whatever that sound is, effects and all, you then make it sound like it's in a small room, in a theater, in a cavern, in front of a reflective metal plate, etc., etc.
Putting any reverb, regardless of brand, in front of the rest of the effects, especially in front of the preamp, will result in your guitar sounding like the little girl from inside the TV in the movie Poltergeist.
Never, ever, ever, ever, ever run any reverb effect before the preamp. In fact, never run it anywhere but very last in the effects chain. The whole point of any reverb effect is to take the completed sound, including distortion, any phasing, chorusing, or delay, and then add some ambience to that sound. IOW, whatever that sound is, effects and all, you then make it sound like it's in a small room, in a theater, in a cavern, in front of a reflective metal plate, etc., etc.
Putting any reverb, regardless of brand, in front of the rest of the effects, especially in front of the preamp, will result in your guitar sounding like the little girl from inside the TV in the movie Poltergeist.
AJ_Newkirk
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Chris McKinley said:
+1
okay well is there a problem with holy grails output cause it's making my amp super quite and and even when i adjust the level on my loop it make s the amp a little louder but more treble is added and there is almost no bass.... anybody know whats going on here? i made sure the sends and returns are matched up properly and the pedal is powered by an adapter.
KoskineN
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With the Holy Grail, the more you had reverb with the knob, the more you lost volume/add ambiance past 12 o'clock. And it's more obvious on the Spring setting, and it's kind of annoying...I don't know if the new XO version do the same thing though.
Chris McKinley
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ja22y,
RE: "What if the amp don't have FX loop?". Then you can't use a reverb with it, or chorus or delay, for that matter. The amp doesn't all of a sudden become able to handle a reverb before the preamp just because it doesn't have an effects loop. Unfortunately, if your amp doesn't have an effects loop, you still don't have the option of putting the reverb before the amp. That's not the way the effect works. It will sound horrible if you do, since the thousands of very fast delays a reverb produces will then each be distorted artificially, and the final sound will be unuseable even for live performances.
If you have an amp with no effects loop, your only real option for live performance is to mike the speaker of the amp, then run that signal into a house PA with an effects loop and put the reverb in the mixer's loop. For recording, you would again mike the amp's speaker, then run the mike's signal into a mixer/recorder with an effects loop where you could put the reverb.
RE: "What if the amp don't have FX loop?". Then you can't use a reverb with it, or chorus or delay, for that matter. The amp doesn't all of a sudden become able to handle a reverb before the preamp just because it doesn't have an effects loop. Unfortunately, if your amp doesn't have an effects loop, you still don't have the option of putting the reverb before the amp. That's not the way the effect works. It will sound horrible if you do, since the thousands of very fast delays a reverb produces will then each be distorted artificially, and the final sound will be unuseable even for live performances.
If you have an amp with no effects loop, your only real option for live performance is to mike the speaker of the amp, then run that signal into a house PA with an effects loop and put the reverb in the mixer's loop. For recording, you would again mike the amp's speaker, then run the mike's signal into a mixer/recorder with an effects loop where you could put the reverb.
please....you can use chorus and delays before an amp and they work just fine depending on what you need and how you set them up.
Reverb is best in an effects loop but I have heard old Fender Bassman amps used with reverb tanks IN FRONT of the amp and they have sounded great.
Reverb is best in an effects loop but I have heard old Fender Bassman amps used with reverb tanks IN FRONT of the amp and they have sounded great.
vibrocaster
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....what Rocky said.
Chris McKinley
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To each his/her own, guys, but you cannot use effects placement interchangeably in any order you choose, since there is a very noticeable difference in the quality of sound between placing effects correctly, that is, in the order of placement they were designed to go, and placing them randomly out of order. Modulation effects before distortion has always sounded like amateurish noise. If you want to spend $1800 on a Mesa amplifier, $900 on a Mesa cabinet, several hundred dollars on a decent guitar, and a few hundred dollars on some quality effects pedals only to wind up sounding like the kind of crap a 14 yr. old would get out of a Wal-Mart rig because you didn't take the time to learn how to place your effects correctly, that's up to you.
Seems to me that if you care enough about your tone/sound that you are willing to spend what a Mesa costs in addition to your other equipment, you'd care enough to do something as simple as learn what order your effects go in to sound their best. :roll:
Seems to me that if you care enough about your tone/sound that you are willing to spend what a Mesa costs in addition to your other equipment, you'd care enough to do something as simple as learn what order your effects go in to sound their best. :roll:
Chris McKinley
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Sure you can, Rocky, nobody's gonna stop you, that's why I said to each his/her own, but then again this isn't about a given person's rights to do with their property what they will. This is about how to use your (rather expensive) pro-level equipment to sound like a pro instead of like cheap noise. If, for whatever reason, somebody actually wanted to sound like the little girl from Poltergeist all the way through their song set playing live, then more power to him. Same goes for somebody who wants to sound like swirly distorted noise or non-naturally-decaying artificially distorted echos. If you want your outrageously expensive top-shelf tube amp to sound like a solid-state Crate knockoff, go for it. You have the absolute right to do so.
If instead you want to sound as professional as you can with your high-dollar rig, then do what not only all the effects manufacturers themselves recommend, but also what every recording engineer and record producer will unanimously tell you to do and learn to use your effects correctly.
If instead you want to sound as professional as you can with your high-dollar rig, then do what not only all the effects manufacturers themselves recommend, but also what every recording engineer and record producer will unanimously tell you to do and learn to use your effects correctly.
Yeah...I guess some of those old vintage recordings of surf guys plugging into a reverb tank then into a bassman are amateur and sound like a crate. I guess Andy Summers clean chorus sounds on early police records are crap. Like I said where things go depends on what the player wants as an end result. Please STOP telling people that your way is the only way or the correct way....your way is your way and that is great. But your opinions are not the definitive solution for everyone in all situations.
Grab the new issue of Guitar Player. Great info on effects order and pedal boards. Great issue for information on this subject...guys like Pete Cornish and Bob Bradshaw chime in on the topic of pedal order and placement.
Grab the new issue of Guitar Player. Great info on effects order and pedal boards. Great issue for information on this subject...guys like Pete Cornish and Bob Bradshaw chime in on the topic of pedal order and placement.
Chris McKinley
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Rocky,
RE: "Please STOP telling people that your way is the only way or the correct way...". It is a lie to state that I have even hinted that "my way" is the only way when I have gone out of my way to explicitly state that everyone has the right to do whatever they wish with their own equipment. Once again, Rocky, this isn't about rights. It's about what sounds good. As for "correct", that's a subjective term in this context, of course, but one which is informed by the fact that these effects were specifically designed to go in a certain order by their manufacturers. They are purposefully intended to sound their best when used as they were designed to be used.
Since krankitup already admitted by posting this thread that he did not know which sounds better, I simply told him. If he is skeptical or, like me, simply wants to try everything out for himself to find out what he likes better, I encourage him to do so. He will end up in the same place anyway when he hears the difference himself.
Beyond that, your examples just further proved my point. Dick Dale doing the surfer thing would indeed be a mostly unuseable sound for anything happening in today's music because a) it is far too clean to function as the rhythm guitar in almost anything post 1970, and b) it is so overly drenched in reverb that it has become synonymous with surf/rockabilly, not to mention that that much reverb would leave it buried in any modern mix. You're also leaving out the fact that if Dale or others wanted to have reverb on his sound when playing live using a Bassman, he would be forced to either mike the speaker and run that through a reverb tank or to run the reverb first, which left him without the option of controlling the mix on the effect. His options were limited by the limits of the technology he had to work with. That's one reason why no one uses reverb tanks anymore; not everyone wants to sound like Dick Dale if they want some reverb on their sound.
Andy Summers's clean chorus sounds are just fine, but again he's not putting chorus before distortion; it's a clean chorus sound. Beyond that, Summers did not always use his chorus in an effects chain, either. While Summers is a noted fan of analog effects, most often these effects were run in the on-board loop of the studio board where the superior noise buffers leave a much cleaner signal.
Both your examples here are illustrations of how modulation effects can be used nicely on clean guitar, but neither of them refutes my point that modulation isn't designed to go before distortion. Can one use it that way? Of course. One can do whatever the heck one wants. Will it sound good? Totally separate question.
The bottom line is to try various options out for yourself. I strongly encourage everyone to do so, if only to find out for themselves what pretty much every studio engineer will tell you sounds better. The general order is still guitar>tone/booster/overdrive/EQ effects>amplifier's preamp>loop send>EQ effects>phase modulation effects>noise gates>delay modulation effects>reverb>loop return>power amp>speakers. That's the order that almost every pro in the world will recommend to you if you want your equipment to sound the best it was designed to sound. And with the kind of money that some of this stuff costs, it better sound its best.
Music, like any art form, has plenty of quirky experimenters who will sometimes do something different just to be different, whether the result is good or not. If somebody has tried out various effects placement orders and has knowingly decided that they want their guitar to sound like a robotic swarm of bees on every song, so be it. More power to 'em. But for someone who genuinely doesn't know and sincerely wants to learn, I'm going to tell them, and I'm not going to pretend that all ways of doing it are equal or will sound equally good just to protect someone's right to be different. After they learn, if they want to try out all the ways effects can possibly be hooked up, let 'em, but at least they'll do so from an informed perspective.
RE: "Please STOP telling people that your way is the only way or the correct way...". It is a lie to state that I have even hinted that "my way" is the only way when I have gone out of my way to explicitly state that everyone has the right to do whatever they wish with their own equipment. Once again, Rocky, this isn't about rights. It's about what sounds good. As for "correct", that's a subjective term in this context, of course, but one which is informed by the fact that these effects were specifically designed to go in a certain order by their manufacturers. They are purposefully intended to sound their best when used as they were designed to be used.
Since krankitup already admitted by posting this thread that he did not know which sounds better, I simply told him. If he is skeptical or, like me, simply wants to try everything out for himself to find out what he likes better, I encourage him to do so. He will end up in the same place anyway when he hears the difference himself.
Beyond that, your examples just further proved my point. Dick Dale doing the surfer thing would indeed be a mostly unuseable sound for anything happening in today's music because a) it is far too clean to function as the rhythm guitar in almost anything post 1970, and b) it is so overly drenched in reverb that it has become synonymous with surf/rockabilly, not to mention that that much reverb would leave it buried in any modern mix. You're also leaving out the fact that if Dale or others wanted to have reverb on his sound when playing live using a Bassman, he would be forced to either mike the speaker and run that through a reverb tank or to run the reverb first, which left him without the option of controlling the mix on the effect. His options were limited by the limits of the technology he had to work with. That's one reason why no one uses reverb tanks anymore; not everyone wants to sound like Dick Dale if they want some reverb on their sound.
Andy Summers's clean chorus sounds are just fine, but again he's not putting chorus before distortion; it's a clean chorus sound. Beyond that, Summers did not always use his chorus in an effects chain, either. While Summers is a noted fan of analog effects, most often these effects were run in the on-board loop of the studio board where the superior noise buffers leave a much cleaner signal.
Both your examples here are illustrations of how modulation effects can be used nicely on clean guitar, but neither of them refutes my point that modulation isn't designed to go before distortion. Can one use it that way? Of course. One can do whatever the heck one wants. Will it sound good? Totally separate question.
The bottom line is to try various options out for yourself. I strongly encourage everyone to do so, if only to find out for themselves what pretty much every studio engineer will tell you sounds better. The general order is still guitar>tone/booster/overdrive/EQ effects>amplifier's preamp>loop send>EQ effects>phase modulation effects>noise gates>delay modulation effects>reverb>loop return>power amp>speakers. That's the order that almost every pro in the world will recommend to you if you want your equipment to sound the best it was designed to sound. And with the kind of money that some of this stuff costs, it better sound its best.
Music, like any art form, has plenty of quirky experimenters who will sometimes do something different just to be different, whether the result is good or not. If somebody has tried out various effects placement orders and has knowingly decided that they want their guitar to sound like a robotic swarm of bees on every song, so be it. More power to 'em. But for someone who genuinely doesn't know and sincerely wants to learn, I'm going to tell them, and I'm not going to pretend that all ways of doing it are equal or will sound equally good just to protect someone's right to be different. After they learn, if they want to try out all the ways effects can possibly be hooked up, let 'em, but at least they'll do so from an informed perspective.
I agree on the modulation after gain for the most part. Exceptions...Zakk Wylde runs chorus into a really hot preamp. Not going to rave about Zakk's tone but it does work for him and his live 'no more tears' sound is an example of modulation into gain working quite well. Quite a lot of 80's dudes ran chorus into a distorted amp and had great results. Delay pedals will work fine into the front end too.
The great guitar player article I was talking about recommended using Filter effects and Compressors first, then gain effects, then modulation and lastly volume pedals. I follow that EXCEPT for the placement of my volume pedal...I like it first.
My suggestion to Krankitup is to try the Guitar Player thing and see how it works for him. After that he should start trying all sorts of orders to find the brew that works for him.
The great guitar player article I was talking about recommended using Filter effects and Compressors first, then gain effects, then modulation and lastly volume pedals. I follow that EXCEPT for the placement of my volume pedal...I like it first.
My suggestion to Krankitup is to try the Guitar Player thing and see how it works for him. After that he should start trying all sorts of orders to find the brew that works for him.
Music is so diverse that I wouldn't put a hard rule or pro's "best practice", else everyone would sounds like polished Disney's punk (Sid is rolling in his grave) :wink: .
In general I found that digital/analog fx reverb sounds 'better' in the fx loop if you're using it to place your sound in a relative space. As for analog reverb, using it infront can be a very effective way to color your sound and open up new possibilities. Call it old-school or whatever you will but there is nothing 'crappy' about reverb tank/pedal infront of amp.
The question to ask is: Do you use Fx to add color to your guitar parts or do you use Fx to create your guitar parts?
There are plenty of people that put delay, modulation, ... infront of the amp. Here's a link to the rig setup for some artists:
http://guitargeek.com/
The point is we should not limit tone shaping to formula, and remember that 'tone is in the hearing of the beholder'
In general I found that digital/analog fx reverb sounds 'better' in the fx loop if you're using it to place your sound in a relative space. As for analog reverb, using it infront can be a very effective way to color your sound and open up new possibilities. Call it old-school or whatever you will but there is nothing 'crappy' about reverb tank/pedal infront of amp.
The question to ask is: Do you use Fx to add color to your guitar parts or do you use Fx to create your guitar parts?
There are plenty of people that put delay, modulation, ... infront of the amp. Here's a link to the rig setup for some artists:
http://guitargeek.com/
The point is we should not limit tone shaping to formula, and remember that 'tone is in the hearing of the beholder'
