Guitar Pricing

[thinskin57]

has anybody noticed the skewed pricing methods used by fender, gibson, and others? for expample- how can they justify charging (quite a bit) more for a Zakk Wylde LP than, say, a Johnny A model?! other than the taping on the ZW model, what else could be so labor-intensive that it warrants a higher price than the JA model? I'm no luthier, but i'd be willing to bet there's a lot more to building the Johnny model- just look at the two side by side. I'm not saying this is the best example, but next time you're flipping through a catalog you'll see this quite a bit- just look at the price to feature ratio. hmmm....

 

[AustinK]

The price doesn't always reflect the build quality or features. It all has to do with what or who is marketable. I am sure ZAkk wylde is much more marketable than Johnny A, so Gibson feels that they can charge more for the guitar as they know people are willing to pay the extra amount just to have their favorite artists sig. I don't see a problem with this because if the buyer is smart they would see that the ZAkk custom is just a les paul with different pickups and a bullseye on it. This will always happen as long as people are willing to pay more for products that have someones name on it. But you are right the prices just keep going up.

 

[thinskin57]

yeah, that's pretty much what i figured. i was just wondering if i was the only one who gets p%ssed about these kind of things. you know- the big evil corporate greed thing. fender's terrible when it comes to this. i see strats and other models go up in price with nearly every other catalog printing that goes out. i like how they're making some of their tube amps in mexico now, which saves them money. think they'd pass the savings on to the consumer?! hell no! they raised the prices! that's why i REFUSE to buy anything new from the big boys. i go out of my way to find their stuff used. i hope more people start to do this. i wonder how many of those zakk models they sell. it seems to me, and i'm generalizing, that most zakk fans are teenagers with little or no money.

 

[edgarallanpoe]

Because they have to pay Zakk more than they have to pay Johnny A. In turn, they pass the increased cost on to their customers.

I will not own a Fender, Gibson, PRS, or any other large company that pays endorsements for this very reason. I refuse to pay for anything other than a guitar. Marketing expenses are on them, not me.

I play guitars made by small luthiers who do most/all the work themselves. We are living in a golden age of lutherie, and I see no reason why I should have to buy one of the big makers guitars when there are countless makers who build it by hand with better materials.

Want a bolt on, Fender type guitar? Try a Tyler, Anderson, Lentz, D'pergo, Vinetto, Suhr, etc....

Want a Gibby? Try a Grosh, Baker, Collings, Hamer USA, etc....

Want a PRS? Try a Nik Huber guitar and you will never look back.

Want a Gretsch? Look no further than Saul Koll... awesome stuff.

The above luthiers are just a tiny sample of the absolutely huge number of guys who are producing amazing instruments right now.

 

[thinskin57]

Poe- i couldn't agree w/you more. i've got some great luthiers near me but they all want 2K to build what i want. while i believe this is a fair price, i also know myself good enough to know that i'm flighty when it comes to gear. from 1993 to 1998 i was Mr. PRS, then from 1998 to 2004, i was ALL about Parkers. with each gear phase, saying i'd never play anything else. well, now i'm in my "classics" phase- fenders/gibson. my point being, as great a guitar i could have built for me by my (very talented) local luthier, i'd lose BIG-TIME on resale were i to have one of my trademark change-of-heart gear shifts. that's the only reason, in my experience, that it's good to buy from the big guys- i ALWAYS got my money back. i'm not poor, but nor can i afford to keep everything. so if something new catches my fancy, i need to decide what must go in order to fund the new purchase. BTW- didn't know Collings did electrics. thought they were solely (kick-***!) acoustics.

 

[moltar]

it seems to me, and i'm generalizing, that most zakk fans are teenagers with parents who have expendable income.

fixed

 

[devilrob1979]

If you can find a new regular Les Paul with a three piece oiled maple neck let me know. The Zakk Wylde Les Paul is a bit different as it's based on an '83 custom. The cammo one is based on what I believe was a '78. They don't make them like that anymore. All Les Pauls are made with mahogany necks. While I'm not saying it warrants the incredible upcharge from a regular Les Paul Custom they are a bit different. In fact, I'd love to have a Zakk Wylde Les Paul without the paint job and my choice of pickups.

Fender guitars really aren't that expensive when compared with other brands. Even the sig guitars are generally pretty affordable. The Custom Shop models are a bit out there and I'd never pay for relicing I don't see why you guys are so mad at them. I bought a Highway One Texas Tele for $839 which I think was a very fair price for the guitar I got.

I will probably never own a Gibson. Their semi-hollows are made of plywood and their solid bodies are pretty outrageously priced but I don't get mad at the company for that. I just buy from their competitors. My Hamer outshines every Gibson I've ever seen and my Edwards ES-335 is made of better materials by far. Gibson guitars continue to sell so why should they lower their prices. A business should always sell for what the market will bear and obviously the market will bear their prices. A lot of poeple say Mesas are overpriced too but we all know better.

 

[thinskin57]

sorry, but if you can't see what we mean then you're not paying attention.

 

[thinskin57]

moltar- i liked your "fix" to what i wrote. LOL! i thought about putting that in there when i originally wrote it! the last time i was at GC i saw a father plunking down his plastic for his 12 year old who knew all of 3 chords. what did he get? a FULL marshall stack and a prs! good for the kid, i guess.

 

[thinskin57]

i've got to disagree with Devilrob on fenders not costing more than others. here's an example- want a thinskin strat/tele/jag/jazz w/a nitro finish? with a fender, be prepared to spend 1500 or more. you can buy a gibson sg standard for less, and it too has a nitro finish. and here's the kicker- fender is comfortable giving you a 3 piece body for that price! fender is the king of cost cutting. look at their trems- unless you buy a vintage series, you're going to get a guitar with a trem block with substantially less mass, made out of what appears to be some kind of cheap, white metal. you can TOTALLY hear the difference. PRS in another one. you can buy quite a few different les paul models for less than a prs singlecut, so why do you say gibson's prices are outrageously priced? where's that leave prs? all i'll say is, i used to own a singlecut trem and i'm much happier with my (less expensive) LP. but i digress. i DO agree with Devilrob's statement that manufacturers can charge whatever people will pay. it's our own fault. well, not mine because i don't buy new anymore. Hamer? i've played a few and thought they were beautiful and sounded decent, but they didn't say, "take me". i also find it strange that you don't see them in the hands of many BIG time players. i know they have a ton of pros that play 'em, but i'm talkin the big guns like a Page, Beck, VH, Lifeson, Belew, Gary Moore, Clapton, Reeves Gabrels, Frusciante, Townshend, Prince, the Edge, etc. back to fender- back in 2002 i was told by someone in the industry that fender can build an american standard for about 57 bucks. i live in mass where the original Parker factory was. i knew emloyees who were able to purchase a fly deluxe at cost once they'd been employed for one year. the cost? 120 dollars! can you say "profit"? don't get me wrong, that's why they call it a business, and that's why they're there. i guess my complaint is centered around my belief that the amount that these instruments keep going up in price is WAY disproportionate to what it's costing to build them, because they're always finding cheaper ways to do it. Mexico anyone?

 

[Rocky]

Gary Moore used Hamers almost exclusively in the 80's. You would see a strat now that then but he was a big time Hamer guy.

Reeves Gabrels and Frusciante are hardly on the same level as guys on the rest of the list. Reeves uses Fernandes guitars, before that he was a Parker guy...great guitars but hardly a huge name maker. Prince uses Schecters most of the time these days.

Hamers USA guitars are actually handmade...on the road that isnt always a good thing. PRS, Gibson and Fenders are a dime a dozen, sound good and play well....but THE best part is the 'dime a dozen' line. They are easy to replace if lost, stolen or smashed. Try getting a handmade guitar on thursday after your guitar was stolen on a wednesday....not easy.

Look at guys that are TRULY monster players: Dan Huff, Allen Hinds, Michael Thompson, Michael Landau etc and you will see a lot of boutique gear.

EVH uses whatever pays him the most and suits his needs....look a the POS he played for years. Endorsement whores are hard to justify in a 'great gear' thread. Guys like Clapton, Page, Beck etc are all old timers...back in their day you didnt have boutique makers. They are going with instruments that they know and evolved with....that doesnt mean what they grew up with are the greatest things ever.

I'll take a Tom Anderson or James Tyler strat style over any Fender Strat from any era. I'll take a Hamer Monaco or Nic Huber over any Les Paul of any era (unless I was going to flip the guitar for sick cash) and I'd take a McNaught or Heatley over any PRS from any era.

 

[devilrob1979]

The classic Hamer rebuttal is always that you don't see a lot of big name players using them. As was previously stated the big guys get big green for playing Gibson. That's why people who began their careers playing an off-brand like say a Carvin or Framus (think Lamb of God) will often stop playing them and go to a big company like Jackson or ESP for their "signature" guitar. There's just more money in it. They are professional musicians meaning they're there to make money. I know that if I was offered a mill or so up front and a percentage of the sales on a guitar just to play it on stage I would. I might not record with it or play it at home or practice but money's money and you gotta get it where you can. That's just my take. Hamer rules.

 

[thinskin57]

fair enough. but do you know for fact that they REALLY get offered that much money (up to a mil)? i would've thoght they'd just get a boatload of guitars, but what do i know- i've never been endorsed.

 

[thinskin57]

fair enough. but do you know for fact that they REALLY get offered that much money (up to a mil)? i would've thoght they'd just get a boatload of guitars, but what do i know- i've never been endorsed.

 

[jtb226]

I'm sure some of the big names get that much up front.

Personally, if I were to be a professional musician, I'd definitely go with a company that wanted to endorse me to play something on stage. Even if you don't get $$ up front, you still most likely get free/deeply discounted guitars and a % of the sales of them. So in a sense, why pay big money for a guitar to play on stage (say a McNaught) if someone is going to endorse you and give you them for free or almost free (say ESP)? As a businessperson, you'd be almost stupid not to go with the ESP's. Yeah the tone or playability might not be as good, but if you're playing a loud rock show, how many people in the audience are really going to notice a difference in tone? I'm sure there would be a few, but not that many.

Amps I feel are a different story, because to me, my amp is the majority of my tone. I can get a tone pretty close to what I like with a bunch of different guitars, but switch amps and I have a bigger problem.

 

[Rocky]

walk into a Studio in New York or Nashvill. You will see Andersons and Tylers and other top shelf boutique stuff.

Steve Vai was actually working with Hamer and Tom ANderson before Ibanez...but Hamer and TA couldnt offer the $$ contract and couldnt deliver 10 guitars at a time. So he went with Ibanez.

Here is the Vai Anderson prototype:

And the Vai Hamer Prototype:

Rumor has it that Vai's Ibanez guitars have necks that are ghost built by Tom Anderson. Eddie Van Halen's Kramer necks were Anderson ghost jobs....Tom talked about them on his forum a month or so ago.

 

[jtb226]

I'm not saying these guys who are endorsed play their signature guitars in the studio. I highly doubt it in fact.

It just makes sense to me to play a free/cheap guitar on stage so you can beat the crap out of it and get another one tomorrow if needed.

 

[thinskin57]

Rocky- gotta disagree w/your comment-

"Reeves Gabrels and Frusciante are hardly on the same level as guys on the rest of the list."

Gabrels i'm not going to argue. although on chops alone he IS in the league of the others listed. Frusciante, on the other hand plays in one of the worlds biggest rock bands, and has evolved into an absolute monster. this guy literally lives and breaths music. i know i can't be alone here as enough other people now think enough of his playing to have voted him "best rock guitarist" in guitar player magazine's readers poll in '07. having said that- i don't think ANYONE is the "best"- i'm just trying to make a point that people DO now recognize him as a contender. he's also prolific as a mutha. he wrote and released 6 solo albums in six months. that's an album a month. last i knew, it took eric johnson a month just to find a mic position in front of his amp. prince is playing a schecter? eeeww! last i knew he was playing strats w/no middle pickup and floyds on them. if he is playing a schecter, i'm sure it's not off a production line.

 

[Rocky]

I'd label Frusciante as an overrated player...good in the studio but live he has always left me flat. I can see why people like him though.

 

[thinskin57]

rocky- that might be a fair statement about frusciante as i think he's one of those players who (live) is either "on", or "off". i will say, when he's on- he's ON. he was very impressive on the stadium arcadium tour when i saw him. i tend to gravitate towards players who are more "artists" than "technicians" anyway. i'd don't mind hearing a bad note here and there if the vibe is good. a concert should be just that. NOT a clinic. his vocal harmonizing is brilliant in the studio. a lot of people don't know it, but he was a shredder prodigy type back when he was in his teens. when he joined rhcp, he was playing guitars w/big frets and floyds.