Getting a smoother lead tone from F-50

[Kikkoman]

Ok, here's the deal...

I really like the clean sound that I get out of my F-50. The OD channel is also good, especially for some crunchy distorted chords. Overall the amp sounds very musical and pleasing, and pretty much all of the tones are usable for some type of music.

However, I'm having some difficulties getting a smooth, sustainy and singing lead tone out of the amp. (This is actually a problem I have with most amps) I tend to think of distorted tones as either "grainy" or "smooth", and the F-50 seems to have plenty of grain that I would like to turn into smoothness. (Does anybody have any idea what I mean?)

I have thought about a few things I could try to solve this issue, and would like some help with picking the right course of action. New ideas are also welcome, of course. But anyways, here's the options I've laid out so far:

1) A power attenuator / loadbox. The F-50 is ridiculously loud, and I'm never able to turn the volume of the OD channel past 10 o'clock during band rehearsals. Knowing that tube amps like to be cranked, this was the first thing that came to my mind.

2) A new speaker. The Black Shadow is probably a very good speaker, but is it the right one for the F-amp? I've heard the BS being described as a very neutral speaker, so maybe one with more emphasis on certain frequencies and attenuation on others would work. I've briefly tried hooking up my F to a 2x12 loaded with Eminence Wizards, and it didn't seem to push me in the right direction.

3) New preamp tubes. I've though about getting some 12AU7 and 12AT7 preamp tubes, since presumably they would drop the volume of the preamp section, letting me turn the master volumes up. Overall, it would be interesting just for the sake of experimentation. Don't know how the sound of the amp would change, though.

4) A new OD pedal. My much-beloved TRex Mudhoney doesn't seem to work too well with this amp. It's a muddy pedal, and the F having a somewhat dark voicing, I guess it's only logical they don't match that well. In that case, I would like to hear people's experiences about OD pedals that work with this amp.

As I said, other suggestions/recommendations are more than welcome. I really think the F is a great sounding amp, but if I could just squeeze the perfect lead tone out of it, it would be THE amp for me...






...until I can afford a Lone Star, that is.

 

[MPenny]

I started a thread similar to this on my F100. I know exactly what you mean. The f series it seems have a very edgy sounding distortion. Not very smooth. Unfortunately after weeks of experimenting I seem to have discovered that this is just what the amp sounds like. However I will tell you this, I was running an OD pedal (the boss sd-1) on the drive channel at all times. I recently took that pedal off of my pedalboard. I realized that the pedal being not true bypass really had an effect on the sound of my amp. I also took my loop pedal off my board as I found that the signal level knobs added a really gritty sound to it. This is probably not your problem, but just letting you know in case you are running a few pedals before the amp. The sound of those pedals even while not in use really made an ugly sound. Now I just turn the gain up to the max label instead of keeping it down and running an overdrive pedal. Though I may see if putting the overdrive pedal back on without putting the loop switcher sounds any different. Im sorry I can not be more of help. I know now much about the mechanics side of the amp like pre-amp tubes and such. Good luck however!

 

[theroan]

I used to have an F-50, and for just those reasons.

The Black Shadow is a great speaker, I wouldn't get rid of it. It covers the frequency spectrum better than something like a V-30.

If you didn't know already, an EQ pedal in the loop is the best way to enhane an F series.

You could try pre-amp tubes, it would be affordable, but it affects the over-all tone of the amp, including the cleans.

An overdrive pedal with an extensive EQ section would be highly advantageous. Catalinbread Silverkiss, Openhaus, Reezafratzitz for instance are great. Or you could combine an overdrive with an EQ pedal (the MXR 10 Band is top notch).

 

[Lkdog]

What guitar and pickups are you using?

I am finding the F-50 quite smooth to be honest. I use a PRS Custom 24 with the HFS pickup in the bridge (pretty high output 15K), and my other axe is a James Jaros custom and I use BG Pickups Dark Bucker in the bridge-which is a warmer hotter wound PAF pickup (about 11K).
I would say the overall lead tone with gain of the F-50 is slightly dark, smooth, and juicy.
The clean channel lead is pretty Fender Bassman-ish. You can make it gritty, or warmish when it breaks up.

This is a nice amp. My only wish would be that the hiss was a little less. I might try a noisegate in the FX loop, or use my PODXT in the loop and use that gate.

 

[Kikkoman]

Thanks for the input everybody!

MPenny, I've mostly been plugging my guitar straight into the amp. Glad to hear there are others who feel the same way about the 2nd channel, though.

I did try the preamp tube thing. Got some nice JJ ECC81's and ECC82's. They dropped the overall volume and gain considerably, and with some experimentation I was able to increase the signal-to-noise ratio of the clean channel quite a bit. I've been having some hiss on the clean channel, but now it's much better. Didn't affect the harshness of the OD, unfortunately.

Theroan, I really didn't think the speaker was the issue here, and your comment confirmed that I shouldn't bother changing it. Atleast for now. I've also tried a cheapo EQ pedal in the loop, gonna do some more experimenting soon.

Lkdog, my main guitar is an Ibanez SV with stock pickups. They're not the best ones, I know, but they sound wonderful on the clean channel of the F-50. Once again, I can't tell you how much I like the cleans on this thing. Just beautiful, and pretty much the reason I bought the amp. I've also tried strats and a Les Paul through the amp, and didn't get significantly better results.

Last night I spent hours with the amp, and unfortunately my problem still remains. I can't get any kind of "sustainy" OD out the amp. Instead, it's just raspy and very un-musical to be honest. Unless I use only a hint of gain, then it's pretty nice. Now this thing puzzles me, because I remember trying some F-series amps a few years back and loving the OD sounds, but they were too expensive for me back then. This one I bought mainly for the clean sounds, but I thought I might be able to tweak some good distorted sounds out of it without pedals, as well.

Wonder if there's something wrong with my amp. Listening to some clips other people have made, they seem to be getting a remarkably better sound out of it.

One more thing I thought of: power tubes and bias. I've done some research, and somehow the "symptoms" of my OD channel seems to match a lot of people's description of an amp which has been biased cold. Fizzy, not musical, no sustain. Now I know that Mesas can't be biased, and some people say they are consistently shipped out with a permanently cold bias. Does this mean that power tubes should be selected very carefully, and lots of experimentation is needed to find the right ones? If so, what tubes and what rating should I try? Does it sound like the issue MIGHT be related to the power tubes and bias?

I am aware of the Mesa power tube labeling and selection process, in fact I currently have a pair of Mesa 6L6s in my amp. I also have a Sylvania pair, but it doesn't sound any better. However, when I first got the amp I tried to get rid of the background hiss by putting in a pair of Engl tubes that I had lying around. I had one session with my band with those tubes in the amp, and that's the only time the amp has sounded absolutely wonderful to me on both channels. Unfortunately, one of the Engl 6L6s blew near the end of the session. Don't know if they were running too hot, or starting to die out anyway. They were old and beaten, I know that.

 

[cuda]

I realize this may not work for everyone but does for me playing a strat with reissue 57/62 pickups
I've had my F50 for awhile before I found the sweet spot for creamy sustain. On channel 2 settings are:
gain 10, treble 11, mid 12, bass 10.5 , reverb 11, master 11

 

[plumptone]

Fulltone Fulldrive 2 Mosfet. You'll never look back.

 

[Boogiescot]

I spent ages trying to get what i thought was the right smooth sustain from the F50 - then got the lovepedal eternity fuse OD - I still need to experiment on Channel 2 with this as it's just so amazing on the clean channel I have'nt needed to. Smooth, transparent,creamy - check out the reviews for this pedal. It is made for the F50!!

 

[Hobo]

I'm currently only using the clean channel of my F-50 and using a DigiTech RP500 for all of my gain tones. Incredibly versatile setup that gives me all the tones I need at any volume.

 

[sbalderrama]

I found that with nearly any amp, the best approach to a smooth lead tone is use lower gain on the channel and hit it with a clean boost. I use a seymour duncan pickup booster, but an Xotic AC or RC boost would probably be good too. I discovered this when I had a Lonestar for a while and worked on mimicing Andy Timmons sweet lead tones.

 

[geddyentwistle]

i had the same problem with LSS, dual rec and mark iv

in LSS and dual rec, change v1... i like 12at7

most important, the mesa speakers sounds fizzy...so do vintage30s...

the solution is greenbacks, esp in a closed back cab... all amp sound great in greenbacks

 

[soulfixinman1]

I will try my fulldrive two in front of the clean channel always was good in front of Fender preamps

 

[giorikas81]

try the gain or the gain + contour channel with lots of gain (perhaps full for the gain channel) but the treble rolled all the way down to zero and mids full all the way to 10/10. If you have a les paul type guitar use the bass knob from the middle and down to avoid flub...It also needs to be opened up to allow the power tubes to cover the fizz of the preamp.

People refer to the f-50 as being trebley or raspy but the fact remains it needs to have the master more than 9 o'clock to be heard right. Because these equals very high levels, try the "fx loop trick" which is a volume or eq pedal through the loop bringing the final level down (in accordance to the preamp) but allowing the master to be high. It is not the same as an attenuator but for many it does the job. An eq pedal for that will also allow you to shape the sound better.

 

[giorikas81]

Also don't forget that, the way you set the bass mid treble effects the mid frequency where a scoop occurs. That means that you have to "find your guitar" by ear through tweaking (in a way). That also means, that an eq in the loop will allow you to do that graphically and with more versatility. What also must not be forgotten is that the actual speaker and in a degree, the power amp especially in high levels, are also some sort of eq.

The c90 is a really good speaker but compared to the v30 (not on its own or as a general description) I find it a bit cold sterile etc (although it does have its strong points!!!).

Some of the tonewords you used to describe the sound.

 

[FIREBALL]

I know exactly what you mean regarding the F-50 overdrive sound. While musical, it is not smooth and tends to be grainier sounding. Personally, I like a more compressed, smoother distortion that has a singing sustain when playing leads.
I believe this amp absolutely LIVES on the clean channel. It's awesome and is all I use now. For distortion/overdrive, I have found a combination (in this order) of a compressor/sustainer pedal (I use a Pigtronix Philosophers Tone), EQ pedal (I use a Boss) and a distortion pedal (I have an old MXR that I love but find one you like) yields a great classic rock distortion that is dirty without being muddy, still maintaining clarity and definition, especially when playing open chords. To keep my volume level constant from clean to distorted when gigging, I balance the level on the distortion pedal to match my volume when the MXR pedal is off.

Additionally, I found that tube selection will really color your sound for better or worse. Stock MESA tubes are O.K. but I have found better out there. For the power tubes, I use SED 6L6GC "Winged C" and the preamp is loaded with 4 Tungsol 12AX7's.

 

[fishyfishfish]

I found that either you love the F series drive for the music your playing or hate it. I have a F30, played my friends F50 for since 2004? and while jamming or playing at home it was OK, but when I got it in a band situation (Both amps) I started having problems with getting good lead or rhythm tones that fit. What I did was find a couple good pedals and used the clean channel and problem solved.
I tried speakers, tubes and the lot, but really didn't change the amp to the point where I said "Wow, that's it!".
The pedals I settled with were a Radial Plexitube, OR Carl Martin Plexitone, I did try almost every pedal under the sun, and those two came the closest to what I was shooting for.
Hope this helps.

 

[greyblooz]

That's really odd because when I tried the amp in the store with an Epiphone semi-hollow, it sounded ultra-smooth and sustained on Ch.2 -- almost too much, but I did really enjoy it. However when I got it home and tried it with the brighter, vintage-output pickups in my G&L Legacy; I didn't hear this smoothness anymore. It was a bit grainy and harsh, with less sustain.

My feeling about this amp and the Studio.22 I had before is that you really need a humbucker to get that Boogie signature sustain and smoothness. Maybe even maybe a P-90 or overwound single-coil would get you there?