Fitting a Tremoverb into the live mix

[Koreth]

Hello fellow recto owners.

I have acquired a Tremoverb for use in my band, and was wondering if anyone might be willing to share some tips on fitting into the mix.

Some history: Previously I was using a Nomad 100 and that worked fine for me. The other guitarist in my band used a JCM 2000 TSL with dimed mids, boosted with a TS-808, run through a 1960AV loaded with V30s. I set my Nomad's mids at noon, ran a scoop on the Nomad's graphic EQ, used no boost pedal, and ran through a Peavy XXL 4x12 loaded with blue marvels. I later switched the Peavey 4x12 for a Mesa 1x12 3/4 back loaded with a C90. With this setup I could hang with the Marshall, didn't have much of a problem finding a space in the mix for my guitar. More recently, the other guitarist purchased an Engl (still boosted with the tube screamer). Since then, I've found myself struggling to keep up in the mix. The Nomad doesn't seem to want to get up to that level of gain with without starting to feel mushy in the bass. A boost helps, but that's one more pedal to dance with on stage, and I wasn't feeling so hot about the boosted tone. I figure if I need to boost to keep up, I should probably be looking at a different amp. I found a good deal on a Tremoverb on Craigslist, and so jumped on it. I've been loving the sound of the Tremoverb through my 1x12 3/4 back, and have been itching to take it to practice since.

When I took the Tremoverb to practice yesterday, I again found myself struggling to keep up in the mix. The red channel on modern sounded great on it's own at home, but as soon as the drums and that boosted Engl came in, I all but vanished from the mix. Even diming the mids and bringing the treble up didn't help with cutting through at all. The kick drum swallowed up most of my lows, the cymbals ate up most of my highs (as is to be expected on both counts), and the rest of my sound disappeared behind the snare drum and the other guitar. I absolutely loved the percussive 'thump' I could get, but that's about all I could hear/feel. There was no crunch to carry me forward in the mix at all. I attempted to boost with my SD-1, but that didn't seem to help. About halfway through the 2nd song I said "screw this" and switched the orange channel to vintage high gain, and changed to the orange channel. Hello! There's my guitar! The volume and mid boost was enough that I could finally hear myself against the drums and the Engl. Between songs, I brought the red channel master volume up so it sounded as loud as the orange channel, but as soon as the next song started, I was gone from the mix again.

I know the simplest solution would be to simply run the orange channel as my main dirt, but orange doesn't have that delicious percussive thump that red does. It seems that even with the mid knob dimed, the red channel is too scooped to not disappear in the mix. And yet many others use Recto's live with no problem, so I'm wondering what I'm doing wrong here.

Does anyone have any suggestions? Change my EQ? Different speakers? Different cabinet? Different tubes? Something else?

 

[94Tremoverb]

I think you're going to need a bigger cabinet...

Preferably one with at least two V30s. The Tremoverb was born to play through those, and even though it sounds great through other things it loses the authority it has without them. A 1x12" against a 4x12" (even with 75s) is always going to be a struggle unless it's something like a Mark series with more midrange than you normally know what to do with.

Use Bold, Diode, and if you have them, EL34s.

I think you may also want to ask your bandmate to think about the sound of the whole band rather than just his guitar. If he's really that loud and overpowering to the point you can't hear a 100W tube amp (even through a single speaker), he's probably just too loud. I know this is a difficult thing to raise. He may just have not really noticed or thought about it, if he loves the sound of his new amp - and there's no doubt it will have way more punch than the TSL. He must be loud if boosting the Red channel with a SD-1 didn't help - it means you're probably up at near enough max power already.

It's always a pain when someone changes their gear and messes up the sound of the band, even if *his* sound is better.

 

[screamingdaisy]

Single C90 against 4 V30s...

The C90 is a brighter speaker that has a higher mid emphasis than the V30s that come in a Mesa cab. My guess is that you're going head to head in a frequency range where his amp/cab is at it's strongest.

If you can swing it I'd start looking at a Recto 2x12 or 4x12. The Mesa V30s produce more midrange at a lower frequency than the Marshall V30s in his 1960AV, which will shift your guitar in under his. And, if you're going for the big thumping sound that's probably where you want to be.

Also, be advised that the way the Recto's EQ functions the treble feeds into the mids, which feeds into the bass. Or in laymans terms, the higher you run your treble the less midrange you'll have... so if you've been cranking up the treble trying to get more bite you're actually cutting your mids. Use the presence to increase bite.

Also, with modern mode it can pay to run the presence up higher. It sounds kind of sh*tty if you're just listing to your amp by itself, but it adds a lot of immediacy to the Recto's tone. If you're into experimenting, dime the presence and cut the treble using your guitar's tone pot.

And lastly, rolling your treble pot down to zero will produce a midrange boost. It used to be a common "trick" to scooping a Recto without actually scooping the mids. I don't find it necessary with a Recto cab, but with other cabs it has come in handy.

EDIT: One more thing... when a Recto is introduced to a band it's sometimes required to negotiate the bassist's EQ as well. If he's used to having a lot of low mid in his tone it can swallow your guitar up. If you're going to spread the guitar frequencies out it may be required to get him to scoop his midrange to leave room for your guitar.

 

[YellowJacket]

Does anyone have any suggestions? Change my EQ? Different speakers? Different cabinet? Different tubes? Something else?

My friend plays in a band and he has a 3 channel Dual Rectifier. He is against an ENGL Fireball and an ENGL Powerball. He says no matter what, he always cuts more than they do. He's running a 4 x 12 loaded with Mesa Boogie v30s and he doesn't boost his tone. What guitar and pickup are you using??

I think the key here is going to be carving out your own sonic space in the tone. That being said, the physics of sound are such that a 1 x 12 will only move a quarter the air a 4 x 12 does, no matter how much power you put through it. It might be best to bite the bullet and move over to a 4 x 12. I recommend the Stiletto 4 x 12 since it has a more pronounced midrange.

Another question? Do you double the parts the other guitarist plays or do you have your own individual parts? If you play the same thing the other guy does, you'll run into masking issues.

 

[fluff191]

I think you're going to need a bigger cabinet...

This.

 

[cheameup]

as others said 1 x 12 is probably not moving enough air

screamingdaisy's advice is great all round . presence knob is your friend and bass your enemy sometimes . at home practising I have presence at 9 oclock and my bass at 12 oclock on modern and it sounds fat and awesome. but in the studio or live with the bass player and drummer I need to get to bump presence up to 12ish and the bass down to 1030ish (depending on the room ) to stay heard

 

[Koreth]

I suspect the 1x12 vs 4x12 might be part of the problem, but wasn't sure. Going strictly by the numbers, I wouldn't think a 4x12 could be too much louder than a 1x12 (only +3dB for every doubling of speakers and such), but now I know, and knowing is half the battle. Some of you are suggesting recto cabs, others are suggesting stiletto cabs. Is a Stiletto cab going to make it harder to get that percussive thump? I do love that sound, but I might be convinced to give it up if it means fitting into the mix better. I'm not keen on getting into a bandwidth war with the bass player, as that's a battle I'm fairly certain I'll loose. I'll confess, I'm a little apprehensive of the Recto cabs, as scooped, muddy and poorly tracking are the complaints that I most immediately recall. Is there a way to have that percussive thump without stepping on the bass player or mudding up the mix?

I sometimes double rhythm parts, other times I'll play a lead over them. When I'm doubling, I suppose I don't mind falling underneath the other guitar a bit if it means making the mix sound thicker/meaner/heavier/whatever. When I start playing my own separate parts, it would be nice to be able to come forward in the mix simply by virtue of playing something different than the other guitar, without having to resort to changing the channels or engaging a boost. Changing channels many times during a song whenever I cease to double the 2nd guitar could get tiresome quickly. I'd prefer to save a boost or channel change for major lead work, like solos and such.

As for guitars, I'm playing Ibanez RGs with a modified Seymour Duncan JB in the bridge and Screamin' Demon in the neck. The JB's normal AlNiCo 5 magnet has been replaced with an AlNiCo 8 magnet, making for hotter output, more mids, and tighter lows, but the treble is pulled back so the highs aren't harsh or piercing.

YellowJacket: What settings does your friend use that he an beat a couple Engls?

ScreamingDaisy: I knew about the interactive nature of the Recto's tone stack, being the standard FMV circuit and all, but you're right. I played with a simulation of the circuit and even with the mids dimed, when the treble was brought up, it cut into the mids to bring up the highs. I know the manual warns that the controls are interactive and that the higher the treble is turned, the less effective the other two knobs get, but this drives that point back home again. The dark sound that comes of having the treble way down or even off sounds kinda weird alone, but I suppose I can use the presence control to hold on to some of the highs.

 

[vitor gracie]

Guitar cabinet and speaker choice is probably the most overlooked piece in your signal chain. There is always a HUGE emphasis on guitar, fx, head, tubes, etc but little focus on matching all those things to your cab with the correct speakers.

Absolutely get yourself a Mesa 4X12 or an Orange 4x12. No question about it.

Orange 2X12 or a Port City cab are my 2nd choice recommendations. I am a big Celestion V-30 fan "aged" by Avatar: called a "Hellatone 60"
http://www.avatarspeakers.com/
but whatever works for you.

A note on the Orange setting of the Tremoverbs and older Dual Recs. When dialing in the highs on that setting, the "2nd" channel's presence knob has LITTLE TO NO EFFECT in adding highs. It's in the manual. The presence knob on your 1ST channel controls the overall presence of BOTH channels when you have your gain channel (2nd) set to Orange. You can get a similar amount of bite (similar not exact) on the Orange setting to the Red but you won't have those thunderous lows. Remember to mess with the presence knob on that top channel (or clean channel, 1st channel, whatever you want to call it) and mids are always a good thing. The Orange by nature is more mid-rangy and way less scooped then the Red one as you discovered. But, the Orange setting has a softer low end and less of that aggressive top end. Thats why a LOT of us like that Orange setting.

Also, I spent a lot of time getting used to playing with LESS bass/low end and a lot of guys do the same that run the Orange channel on their Trem-O-Verbs. 94Tremoverb will confirm this too. The scoop thing is a fun sound when you are by yourself but in the mix, backing off the gain a lot, keeping the lows at 12 o'clock and pushing more mids takes discipline and a long time to get used to but your sound man will love you to death. The hardest thing for me was backing off the gain. Now-a-days as a working musician in a national band, I don't have the gain up past maybe 1 O'clock....maybe 2 O'clock at lower volumes. I do have good guitars to use that sound great through anything, but often practiced with a cheap, $300 schecter just for fun and noticed the same rules applied. backing off the gain, settling on a fixed setting for the bass, and pushing the mids a little really gets you to play very maturely when referring to the sound you are giving the engeniers/sound guys.

Hope that helps. Trem-O-Verbs are my favorite Boogies of them all.

 

[vitor gracie]

Also, be advised that the way the Recto's EQ functions the treble feeds into the mids, which feeds into the bass. Or in laymans terms, the higher you run your treble the less midrange you'll have... so if you've been cranking up the treble trying to get more bite you're actually cutting your mids. Use the presence to increase bite.

Also, with modern mode it can pay to run the presence up higher. It sounds kind of sh*tty if you're just listing to your amp by itself, but it adds a lot of immediacy to the Recto's tone. If you're into experimenting, dime the presence and cut the treble using your guitar's tone pot.

And lastly, rolling your treble pot down to zero will produce a midrange boost. It used to be a common "trick" to scooping a Recto without actually scooping the mids. I don't find it necessary with a Recto cab, but with other cabs it has come in handy.

mmmhmm, I have done this a lot before when trying to get a more aggressive sounds. It totally works. We once did a show that had a fantastic sound engenier and I turned the 4X12 AROUND facing the back wall with a really thick blanket over it. I had him feed my signal into my monitor and tailor the monitor's eq a lot to get less lows. Lowering the treble and pushing the presence made me sit very nicely. I don't normally like the red channel but I wasn't sitting right with the Orange that night so we tried the red set like that and it was great. It was amazing to just hear what the mic hears on the cab instead of all that stage volume from your rig.

 

[94Tremoverb]

Guitar cabinet and speaker choice is probably the most overlooked piece in your signal chain. There is always a HUGE emphasis on guitar, fx, head, tubes, etc but little focus on matching all those things to your cab with the correct speakers.

Absolutely agreed.

A note on the Orange setting of the Tremoverbs and older Dual Recs. When dialing in the highs on that setting, the "2nd" channel's presence knob has LITTLE TO NO EFFECT in adding highs. It's in the manual. The presence knob on your 1ST channel controls the overall presence of BOTH channels when you have your gain channel (2nd) set to Orange. You can get a similar amount of bite (similar not exact) on the Orange setting to the Red but you won't have those thunderous lows. Remember to mess with the presence knob on that top channel (or clean channel, 1st channel, whatever you want to call it) and mids are always a good thing. The Orange by nature is more mid-rangy and way less scooped then the Red one as you discovered. But, the Orange setting has a softer low end and less of that aggressive top end. Thats why a LOT of us like that Orange setting.

Cloning Red to Vintage is really useful, exactly because the Presence controls do different things. The Orange channel presence control works in a conventional way to control the amount of treble damping in the power stage negative feedback (NFB) loop - the Red channel presence control is a filter on the output of the preamp, because in Modern mode the NFB is disabled, which is what gives that huge loose sound. But if you clone Red to Vintage, *both* controls now work so you can make the amp cut more in the mix by turning up the Orange channel presence, while controlling the overall top-end *tone* with the Red one.

This is in the manual but isn't fully explained as to why it works, which I think is helpful to know.

Also, I spent a lot of time getting used to playing with LESS bass/low end and a lot of guys do the same that run the Orange channel on their Trem-O-Verbs. 94Tremoverb will confirm this too. The scoop thing is a fun sound when you are by yourself but in the mix, backing off the gain a lot, keeping the lows at 12 o'clock and pushing more mids takes discipline and a long time to get used to but your sound man will love you to death. The hardest thing for me was backing off the gain. Now-a-days as a working musician in a national band, I don't have the gain up past maybe 1 O'clock....maybe 2 O'clock at lower volumes.

I like nothing better than to dime the bass, zero the mids, and whack the gain up to about 2-3 o'clock ... when I'm the only guitarist. If I'm playing in a denser mix it's different - you can't do that or you disappear, you have to learn to focus the tone where it fits in. More mids, less bass, different treble and presence settings.

Try to think of the frequencies you use graphically - what you want is to make all the different instruments fit together so each occupies different areas, and the sum total of all instruments in any area is about the same. (Not just the guitars, but the bass and drums as well.) If you get it right, you can hear everyone and the actual volumes become less important. If you try to fight over the same frequencies, the louder guy wins and the result is more of a mush. Maybe not easy to explain without a pic.

(I've done sound engineering too, so maybe it's more obvious to me, I don't know.)

 

[YellowJacket]

I suspect the 1x12 vs 4x12 might be part of the problem, but wasn't sure. Going strictly by the numbers, I wouldn't think a 4x12 could be too much louder than a 1x12 (only +3dB for every doubling of speakers and such), but now I know, and knowing Some of you are suggesting recto cabs, others are suggesting stiletto cabs. Is a Stiletto cab going to make it harder to get that percussive thump?

Don't be fooled, +3 DB is significant. It is double the sound pressure level. It is like going from a 50watt amp to a 100watt amp. Going up 6DB is like going from a 25watt amp to a 100watt amp, all other factors equal. Ya, the 'perceived' volume is nothing but the actual physics of sound is such that your tone would get completely buried. In addition to this, celestion v30s have a more pronounced midrange than c90s which makes them cut better and sit better in a mix.

Stiletto will have more pronounced midrange with a tighter thump and less ear bleed highs. The Recto cab is more scooped.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f22Nsx6pHp8

YellowJacket: What settings does your friend use that he an beat a couple Engls?

He uses a Jackson Flying V with a dimebag Darryl Signature pickup in the neck. He would zero the treble and then dime the mids and add the highs back in with the presence dial. Even at 100watts with a 2 x 12, he was having no trouble against the twin ENGLs. He now runs a 4 x 12 and he swears every which way that mesas are the LOUDEST amps ever.

Another thought: Maybe your other guitarist needs to EQ his amp for the band instead of what 'he' thinks sounds good? Oversaturated gain only ends up sounding muddy live. (I don't understand why on earth anyone would want to boost an ENGL. They are absolutely ferocious metal amps to begin with) My brother and I would roll our bass down and our gain down for live playing because it would make the guitars sound clearer and cleaner. A lot of 'heaviness' is in how you play your guitar. If none of this solves anything, it sounds like a triple Rectifier is in order. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

 

[screamingdaisy]

I'm going to echo the others on the gain comments.

As a policy I generally try to use the absolute minimal amount of gain necessary to get my point across. I find the results are cleaner/clearer. I know a lot of metal guys are afraid to turn down the gain thinking it's less metal or something if they do that, but for myself I find I get a crisper attack, more punch, more definition in the thump and more separation in notes.

Another trick I learned was to ride my guitar's volume/tone knobs. Again, I know it's "more metal" to run both on 10 all the time, but sometimes I'm playing faster **** where I need just a little bit more tightness, and rolling my volume off to 8 or 9 cleans the amp up just enough to turn mush into chunk. Same deal with the tone pot... lowering the treble going into the amp reduces the sizzle coming out of the amp... so if I'm lacking the articulation/clarity required for a certain song I roll off the tone pot until the midrange detail dominates.

 

[Koreth]

I don't think I've run the gain past 1 or 1:30 excepting when I was experimenting with the knobs when I first got the amp, but noted on not running the gain too high. Heck, when I was playing with Vintage mode, a gain of noon cut through the mix plenty. Hopefully I won't have to have the 'you need more gain' conversation with the other guitarist again. It's a freaking Recto. If he thinks I need more gain, I'd suspect he needs less.

On the advice given above, I've been looking around at 2x12s and 4x12s. I may have an opportunity to buy a pair of vertical 2x12s that are thelie ported on the bottom and partial open back on top, loaded with EVM-12Ls. The seller describes them as having a massive low end comparable to multiple 4x12s. Would these be good cabinets to pair with my tremoverb? Or would they more likely be too much bass, muddying up my amp's tone and stepping on the bass player's toes? I imagine a massive low end could sound cool with a tight amp like a Mark, but I'm leery, as awesome as the cabs sound.

Still trying to track down a Stiletto cabinet. Oversize/Recto cabs are everywhere it seems. The traditional/stiletto cabs not so much.

 

[TremoJem]

I am on board with the cab upgrade.

Hey, here is a question...

If you pull two tubes and run the Tremoverb at 50 watts, do you have to change the speaker impedance?

At 100 watts you run two 16ohm speakers at 8ohms.

What change if any is necessary and what effect would I notice, lower or higher decibel output?

I guess another question is no matter what you run your output amp at, what happens when you change from 4, 8, or 16ohm loads?

Thanks guys, I am thinking of running my two Tremoverbs at 50 watts each and changing the speaker load so that I can really open up the volumes on the channels.

They are so loud for home use that I just wanted to experiment.

I love running at 100 watts and have no problems, but wondered what effect I might get on my tone if I did it differently.

 

[Koreth]

Still working on getting another cabinet, but the above suggestions worked great at band practice today. I threw in a pair of EL34s, set bold variac and ran the silicon diodes. EQ was Bass at noon, mids dimed, treble off, presence dimed. I was able to fit into the mix just fine, despite having only one C90 vs 4 V30s. That deep punch to the palm mutes didn't feel as strong, unfortunately, though it didn't feel loose or muddy, which is good. I'm still looking to get another speaker cabinet. Hopefully I can get some more of that punch to palm mutes with a closed back cabinet.

Did anyone have any input on those 2x12's I posted about above? Would those make for a decent pair of cabinets, or would they be better suited to an amplifier with a different voicing?

 

[YellowJacket]

I am on board with the cab upgrade.

Hey, here is a question...

If you pull two tubes and run the Tremoverb at 50 watts, do you have to change the speaker impedance?

At 100 watts you run two 16ohm speakers at 8ohms.

What change if any is necessary and what effect would I notice, lower or higher decibel output?

Pull either the outside pair or the inside pair. Also pull one rectifier tube.
An 8 ohm cab is going to connect to the 4 ohm output on the amp. A 16 ohm cab is going to connect to the 8 ohm output on the amps.

Change? Generally, more crunch at 'ever so slightly' lower volumes. Other than that, the tone will be tighter, thinner, brighter, with less low end thump. DBs will 'sort of' matter until you start to crank the levels up, then the tonal 'quality' will change more than the outright volume.

I guess another question is no matter what you run your output amp at, what happens when you change from 4, 8, or 16ohm loads?

16 ohm cab ----> 8 Ohms on the amp

8 ohm cab ----> 4 Ohm input on the amp.

4 ohm cab = no dice.

Thanks guys, I am thinking of running my two Tremoverbs at 50 watts each and changing the speaker load so that I can really open up the volumes on the channels.

They are so loud for home use that I just wanted to experiment.

Best advice, Run them with the one rectifier tube and 2 power tubes on Spongy / Rectifier and you'll be able to get a bit crunchier of a tone when the amp is almost off. Switch to bold as the power goes up. The one 'nice' thing about 50 watts is how much easier the amp plays. I find the tone of my dual is really heavy and it really lends itself mostly to chugging and rhythm type applications.

I love running at 100 watts and have no problems, but wondered what effect I might get on my tone if I did it differently.

Like I said, Thinner, Brighter, with less thump in the bass.

Best of luck!!!

Still working on getting another cabinet, but the above suggestions worked great at band practice today. I threw in a pair of EL34s, set bold variac and ran the silicon diodes. EQ was Bass at noon, mids dimed, treble off, presence dimed. I was able to fit into the mix just fine, despite having only one C90 vs 4 V30s. That deep punch to the palm mutes didn't feel as strong, unfortunately, though it didn't feel loose or muddy, which is good. I'm still looking to get another speaker cabinet. Hopefully I can get some more of that punch to palm mutes with a closed back cabinet.

Did anyone have any input on those 2x12's I posted about above? Would those make for a decent pair of cabinets, or would they be better suited to an amplifier with a different voicing?

A 4 x 12 will almost knock you off of your feet with the low end. 2 x 12s are good too, but nothing beats a 4 x 12. NOTHING!