F-50 - too powerfull

[cliff hetfield]

at my gig (in a medium sized bar)last nighti had my amps (f-50 half stack) master at about 9:30. my other guitarist has the crate 120 watt half stack. he was turned up to 12 oclock and had to turn up to 1 oclock to keep up with me.
in a way it feels cool to have that shitload of power ready...but really, what good is it?
i see the need for an attenuator, but they are goddammed expensive.
and by the way, i loved my tone last night. seems to be getting better and better.
but im thinking, maybe i should have bought an f-30. does it sound just like an f-50?
the thought of having an f-100 seems like crazy overkill.

i appreciate all your thoughts!

 

[pau_leader]

You can try getting the THD Yellowjackets which are the same power tubes as the F-30. From what I am told they dont sound exactly the same as the F-30 when put in. But you get "Class A" and your wattage is cut in half. I also have the F-50 and it cooks well.

If I buy Yj's anytime soon I will let you know how the amp sounds.

The cleans on this amp is getting to be more and more beautiful everytime I play. And the distortion Awsome! Great Tone!

 

[Surfcaster]

Weber makes an attenuator called the MiniMass that's gotten great reviews and the 50W version sells for $100. I've read reviews that compare it to the THD Hotplate and while each has it's strengths and weaknesses (as well as different features), both get high marks. I plan to pick one up here before too long.

I thought about the YJs too, but they will affect your tone...from what I've heard it gives it sort of a Vox AC30 vibe. So, if you want to play around with the tone, the YJs may be the way to go. If you like your tone as is, but just want to reign in the volume, I'd check out an attenuator.

And personally, I tried the F-50 and F-30 side by side before I made my purchase...and in fact, I had fully intended by buy the F-30 before I played them and the F-50 had more bottom end and enough more headroom to make it worth the extra cash...and to be honest, the F30 isn't that much quieter than the F50. Volume is related to wattage exponentially, which means to cut volume in half, you have to cut wattage by a factor of 10. So a 5W amp is half as loud as a 50W amp. The volume difference between 50W and 30W is negligible (it probably has 85-90% of the volume potential that the F-50 has). I think the real reason for the F-30 is for people who prefer the EL84 power stage to the 6L6.

Likewise, your bandmates 120W amp is only 1.2 times as loud as your amp. And the different types and values of pots and the variations in circuits could account for the different settings on the respective volume knobs.

 

[pau_leader]

Weber makes an attenuator called the MiniMass:


But these devices color your tone dont they?

 

[dylan7620]

Likewise, your bandmates 120W amp is only 1.2 times as loud as your amp.

its only 1.2 times louder before clipping, past that the f-50 will destroy a 120w crate volume wise

 

[cliff hetfield]

the F-30 is for people who prefer the EL84 power stage to the 6L6.

whats the difference between the el84s and 6l6s? please bare with me. im a little new to the world o' tubes.
that 100 dollar attenuator sounds interesting. i wonder how it will affect my overall sound. a few weeks ago i cranked my f 50 a few times in my basement...just to check out that power tube distortion everybody talks about...i didnt notice an improvement in tone between 9 oclock and 12 o clock. there was a big difference in volume, but it wasnt noticably more distorted, or harmonically rich or anything. :?

 

[cliff hetfield]

You can try getting the THD Yellowjackets which are the same power tubes as the F-30. From what I am told they dont sound exactly the same as the F-30 when put in. But you get "Class A" and your wattage is cut in half. I also have the F-50 and it cooks well.

If I buy Yj's anytime soon I will let you know how the amp sounds.

The cleans on this amp is getting to be more and more beautiful everytime I play. And the distortion Awsome! Great Tone!

just a quick question, what is "class a"?

 

[Surfcaster]

Sorry about the long post here, but hopefully it helps answer your questions...

The difference between an EL84 and a 6L6...it's a good question and I'm not sure how complete an answer I can give you, but I'll try...I don't know much about the technical differences. The first thing you notice is that they look different...almost like a stretched out 12ax7...definitely skinnier than a 6L6 or EL34. The next thing you notice is that they have 9 pins rather than 8 like the 6L6 or EL34, which are often referred to as octals.

They also have different amplification capabilities. Whereas a single 6L6 (and EL34) is generally in the 25W range, a single EL84 is in the 8-10W range (though an amps power rating is not simply based on the tubes in the power stage...for example, both the F-30 and the Nomad 45 use 4 EL84s in the power section...one rated at 30W and one at 45W).

And they definitely impart a different tone. If you're thinking about classic amps, the Vox AC30 and AC15 made the EL84 famous, much like Fender made the 6L6 famous and Marshall the EL34. But much of that had to do with dumb luck...what was locally available and affordable in the 50s and 60s.

People often refer to EL84s and having a "greasy" tone...though I'm not sure I know exactly what they mean by it. But it's distinctive and some people really like it.

As for the attenuator coloring your sound, people say that at extreme attenuation levels there is some treble loss (or really percieved treble loss based on the sensitivity of our ears) and both the Weber MiniMass and HotPlate have treble compensation built in to correct for that. I always wondered about that, but a few months ago I built a very cheap L-Pad attenuator (the details for building one is on the Weber site, or you can buy an adjustable one from some electronics sites, which is what I have) which is just basically a couple of resistors in parallel that provide the correct load to your amp and bleed off some power as heat (and the sucker gets HOT). No tone compensation built into it whatsoever (and it costs around $15). I could not percieve much tonal change even when the thing was maxed out. The problem with it is that it cuts out at about the point I want to use it, and also it does not provide a line out like the Minimass or HotPlate.

Now asking about Class A is dangerous...there are lots of strong opinions. Some people say the only true Class A amps are single ended amps...that is, only one power tube....claiming all other amps are push-pull amps (only one power tube working at any given time) and thus are Class AB. However, people also say Voxes are Class A, and none of them are single ended. And Matchless claims it's amps are Class A (of course, they are based on the Vox circuits), and none of them are single ended. Anyway, Randall Smith just recently published a white paper on it that I keep meaning to read, but it's pretty long and I haven't yet. That might be a place to start...it's on the Mesa website.

 

[Surfcaster]

Oh, and for cranking the amp, I don't think you get much coloration from the power tubes until you get past 12 o clock...like 1:30 or 2. And if you go past that it's very evident, but not all that desirable to me...it just gets very compressed...squishy and spongy. If you do that, get a long cord and stand in a different room or else the thing will squeal and feedback like crazy...not to mention the possible loss of hearing!!! But it does sound pretty good at 1 or 2 o clock. But I still maintain that the pre-amp distortion is so good, you don't have to overdrive the power amp for the amp to sound good...besides, it only wears out your power tubes that much faster!

 

[no soul]

at my gig (in a medium sized bar)last nighti had my amps (f-50 half stack) master at about 9:30. my other guitarist has the crate 120 watt half stack. he was turned up to 12 oclock and had to turn up to 1 oclock to keep up with me.
in a way it feels cool to have that sh!t of power ready...but really, what good is it?
i see the need for an attenuator, but they are goddammed expensive.
and by the way, i loved my tone last night. seems to be getting better and better.
but im thinking, maybe i should have bought an f-30. does it sound just like an f-50?
the thought of having an f-100 seems like crazy overkill.

i appreciate all your thoughts!

Well first of all a F50 is just more powerful than a crate SS amp PERIOD, so theres no shocker there. If anything, make your other guitarist get a better (tube) amp.

The F-100 isnt any louder on a practical level, just more headroom. Matter of fact with the flick of a switch you can cut it down to half power if you want earlier clipping.

 

[no soul]

Oh, and for cranking the amp, I don't think you get much coloration from the power tubes until you get past 12 o clock...like 1:30 or 2. And if you go past that it's very evident, but not all that desirable to me...it just gets very compressed...squishy and spongy. If you do that, get a long cord and stand in a different room or else the thing will squeal and feedback like crazy...not to mention the possible loss of hearing!!! But it does sound pretty good at 1 or 2 o clock. But I still maintain that the pre-amp distortion is so good, you don't have to overdrive the power amp for the amp to sound good...besides, it only wears out your power tubes that much faster!

actually mang, your front end gain is going to give more compression than your output is, BUT if you got the front cranked already, then yeah, the output is jus gonna squish you even more. But these amps definitely get the vast majority of their mojo from the front end. If they didnt, they wouldnt have multiple gain stages and what not.

 

[vulture2600]

class A: at idle, the tube puts out half power and fluctuates around that point.
class AB: the tube goes from like 3 percent at idle to 98 or so percent.
single ended class A: one tube, fluctuating around half power.
push pull class A: two tubes, both half open at idle, and as one goes
down to zero, the other one goes up to full.
push pull class AB: two tubes, idling at like 3 percent. as one tube
goes up to full power, the other does nothing and vice versa.
f30: 2 el84s push pull class AB ( i dont care what mesa says, ive looked at the scheme)
ac15 2 el84s push pull class A
ac30 4 el84s push pull class A
see the difference? class ab is WAY more efficient.

 

[Surfcaster]

actually mang, your front end gain is going to give more compression than your output is, BUT if you got the front cranked already, then yeah, the output is jus gonna squish you even more. But these amps definitely get the vast majority of their mojo from the front end. If they didnt, they wouldnt have multiple gain stages and what not.

True...I've noticed that if you just crank the preamp by itself it starts compressing, regardless of the MV.

 

[dylan7620]

then back off the preamp gain a little and crank the master, the power tube breakup will add the girth to make up for it.

 

[Surfcaster]

Oh, it's not a problem or anything...I rarely turn the preamp gain up that high...I was just saying that I had noticed that.

 

[dylan7620]

:lol: i said girth

 

[no soul]

pre or post gain, its just different flavors thats all.

 

[j37nm]

Running the MV @ 9 o clock will get those power tubes humming. I love the sound when the MV is between 9 - 10 o clock on the contour, and 10-11 w/o contour. It is loud!!! Always wear your ear plugs & take frequent breaks. I almost blew my ears the other day practicing @ loud volumes.

I have the yellow jackets. They do give it a different tone, but it is still pretty loud. You get faster break up, and at lower volumes. Good for practice.

With the yellow jackets, I notice less low end, and much more upper mids & highs. It also had a nice sag on the low end compared to the punch of the 6L6.

I wonder Randall Smith designed the F50 MV to be very sensitive. When comparing most amps to the F50, I find myself cranking the MV to high volumes just to keep up with the F50 w MV @ 9:00. For what it is worth, I do not notice any difference in loudness when comparing 11:00 o clock & 3 o clock. The only difference is more power tube saturation.

 

[cliff hetfield]

thanks for the info friends!
i will say that im very happy with my f50. its very warm sounding with awesome cleans and more than enough gain to play anything short of death metal.
ive been using a digital delay pedal and a boss dual overdrive pedal to boost my solos and get a little more liquidity. :twisted: 8)

 

[pau_leader]

thanks for the info friends!
i will say that im very happy with my f50. its very warm sounding with awesome cleans and more than enough gain to play anything short of death metal.
ive been using a digital delay pedal and a boss dual overdrive pedal to boost my solos and get a little more liquidity. :twisted: 8)

How does the amp sound with that overdrive pedal?