Express 5:50 ... metal?

[UKBoogieboy]

Use a Pedal, simple, sounds better than a raw amp.

 

[ifailedshapes]

I love the Express. If you can afford a Mark V, go that route. You'll be a lot happier! Well, you'll be happier after you've spent a few months dialing it in.

It's hard, if not impossible, to get a bad tone out of an Express. I'd say save your money, pick up an express, and then check out this pedal: http://zvex.com/bom.html

BOX OF METAL! (It's got a cool name, AND it sounds amazing!) Check it out!

 

[emperor_black]

check out this pedal: http://zvex.com/bom.html

BOX OF METAL! (It's got a cool name, AND it sounds amazing!) Check it out!

Huh? You're suggesting plugging a Distortion box in front of a tube amp? You dont need a Mesa if you like the sound of the box. Any cheap tube amp will do. When I was "in love" :lol: with the digitech hardwire, I was running it on the clean channel of a crate. It was sounding so good. Of course once I got the Mark IV things changed!

 

[ifailedshapes]

I also have a Mark IV. The clean channel sucks. You have ONE global reverb control, and the reverb sucks. You have shared tone controls for Rhy1 and Rhy2, so you have to compromise one for the other. The lead channel... is simply amazing, however! Why own a 3 channel amp when only one of the 3 is what you will use?

It's cheaper to buy a new Express than a used Mark IV. The Express will give a beautiful clean sound, a kick-*** rhythm crunch, and with the correct pedal, a good metal tone. And if you look around, you'll notice that most people run pedals in front of their amp. I personally don't think just pushing the preamp harder is going to give an Express a metal tone. I will also add that I HATE the Boss Metal Zone pedal and others of its kind. If you watch the demo videos, the Zvex pedal sounds ALMOST identical to a Dual Rectifier, and that is a heavy (I am referring to tone, however they also weigh a lot) amp!

Now if you want to be a tone snob and say that "it's not exactly the same" then you would of course be correct. However if you heard one, waited an hour, then heard the other, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

Now my argument is strictly based on money. I am assuming that most people (I know I sure as hell can't in this economy) can't afford a Mark V. If he can afford a V, I say by all means, do it! I think that's the perfect amp for this style. Stellar cleans, a usable crunch channel, and that creamy Mark lead tone that will make you jizz in your pants.

Granted this is all my opinion. Every player is chasing his own tone. Be true to yourself (and your wallet) and all will be well. Rock on, forum friends!

 

[ifailedshapes]

Oh ...and what the hell is "Blackened Atmospheric Doom".
Can someone give me an example

I laughed out loud when reading all the different variations of metal. My wife chuckled, but was basically confused and annoyed. As to avoid starting a flame war, I say that in good fun. It's like people who buy a certain brand of ketchup (catsup? wtf?). Who can really tell the difference between Heinz and Del Monte???

 

[TimeSignature]

ifailedshapes, a new Express 5:50 is about the same price as a used Mark IV. I'd actually say the 5:50 is more. I paid $1399 for my Express 5:50 and $1000 for my Mark IV.

As far as the Metal Zone... when running a pedal in front of the Express, you'd want to run an OD like a tubescreamer to push the amp a little harder .... not a Metal Zone.

IMO the Express can easily handle any kind of metal except for metal that has that recto feel... and in that case a Mark cant even cover it.

 

[MrMason]

I decided to do a quick sound check recording just for this topic. It doesn't sound as "full" as it does in person, but I think it gets the overall tone. I'm using a Carvin Bolt (think super strat) with a Duncan Jb Jr going straight into the Express 5:50 2x12 combo, no effects at all. Add a booster or overdrive in front and the Express kicks *** in my opinion. I have the gain at 1 o'clock.
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=455412&songID=8631210

 

[ifailedshapes]

As far as the Metal Zone... when running a pedal in front of the Express, you'd want to run an OD like a tubescreamer to push the amp a little harder .... not a Metal Zone.

I actually said I hate that pedal. As in loathe, intensely dislike, or have no sustainable tolerance for. I think they sound like absolute crap.

I apparently didn't get this point across, but I favor overdrive pedals that push the preamp. I just don't think pushing the preamp is going to be enough for a lot of the heavier metal styles.

And as far as pricing goes, you got a **** good deal on your Mark IV. Is it a head or combo? Rev. A or B? Is there any cosmetic damage? I just can't believe you only paid a grand for it...

EDIT: I don't even know why I'm trying to argue a point, except for the love of conversation. Personally, I don't play metal. I respect the talent and conditioning it takes to really play that style, but the actual sound is not my cup of tea.

EDIT #2:

IMO the Express can easily handle any kind of metal except for metal that has that recto feel... and in that case a Mark cant even cover it.

This is precisely the argument I am making! This is the exact sound I am recommending the Zvex pedal for! Before you step on the purist "I hate distortion boxes" soapbox, but watch some of the demo videos on the Zvex website and listen for yourself. It pretty much nails the Recto sound. Ok, I think I'm done now... Cheers!

 

[microwerx]

I have both the 5:50 and the Mark 5. The Mark 5 is loaded with gain and will definitely meet any heavy metal needs. If you want the Diezel kind of scooped metal, I would suggest running an EQ with the mids scooped around 400Hz.

So is the Express 5:50 good for metal? I can get some great heavy metal types tones with my Express 5:50 and a ceramic humbucker loaded Gibson Explorer. With any less of a guitar, it feels like there is a limited amount of gain available on the Express 5:50, but that's because there's lots of midrange on this amp. The best way to describe the Express 5:50 is like a Mark 5 but (as another forum member suggested) a slice of good sounds from a Mark series amp. You can't really dial in a bad sound. I personally suggest running a tube screamer in front if you need extra gain because they are very transparent on the tone of the distortion of the amp. That is, if you turn it on you hear the same distortion your amp is putting out without tone coloration. I've found it's the best pedal that does this. I would suggest the Turbo Tube Screamer because of the 4 different modes. That being said, I think there's lots of gain already available on this guy. The midrange kind of tone make you think there isn't a lot.

If you can afford a Mark 5, I highly suggest that one. You do get lots more gain and 3 usable channels. The Express 5:50 is a great rock amp and it can get heavy metal tones if you work with it. It can do Chevelle stuff with no problem. The other folks are right when they suggest a V30 loaded 2x12. The Vintage 30's make a big difference in tone, but you may still feel limited with what you're getting out.

My suggestion is that if you try the amp out and you don't get the sound you want, then just pass over the amp. I happen to love my Express 5:50 and my Mark 5. I also have a Dual Rectifier Road King II which I love as well. Different tools for different jobs. I would definitely buy an EQ for the amp to experiment with. I know there's lots of different kinds of metal. I think the Express 5:50 could do metal if you truly wanted it to though. If you're good, then it doesn't matter what amp you play through. It's certainly got the capability.

And I would personally try out both the 5:25 and 5:50 amps separately. They are so different sounding from each other. I hated the 5:25 but loved the 5:50. The EL84 tubes make the amp sound vastly different from the 6L6 loaded 5:50...almost more muddy because of the overdrive characteristics...that's why I don't pay attention to folks who own the 5:25 and give advice about the 5:50...they are too different to give an accurate comparison.

 

[TimeSignature]

I hear ya, ifailedatshapes.

I paid $1000 for my Mark IV widebody combo about 2 years ago and that included the roadcase. Minimal cosmetic damage. Was made in Nov. 1995. Found it on Craigs and scooped it up! The person I bought it from had just bought a Dr Z. Wahoo!

I dont hate distortion pedals.... in the right setting they are awesome. Just not for me. I used to LOVE the Metal Zone in the mid 90's!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ifailedshapes]

...that's why I don't pay attention to folks who own the 5:25 and give advice about the 5:50...they are too different to give an accurate comparison.

Just because we currently own 5:25s does not mean we don't have experience with other amps. Just sayin'.

Here's what I hear in my head when I think of metal. This what I have never heard an Express do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmD6on4wo_A

 

[ifailedshapes]

I hear ya, ifailedatshapes.

I paid $1000 for my Mark IV widebody combo about 2 years ago and that included the roadcase. Minimal cosmetic damage. Was made in Nov. 1995. Found it on Craigs and scooped it up! The person I bought it from had just bought a Dr Z. Wahoo!

I dont hate distortion pedals.... in the right setting they are awesome. Just not for me. I used to LOVE the Metal Zone in the mid 90's!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's crazy! The road case for mine was over $200 by itself! I also have a Mark IV Widebody Combo Rev. B. It's not listed in my sig because I like the Express a lot more. The Mark is currently with my dad, and will be there until he dies, which is when I will regain possession of it. I hope that isn't for a long time for two reasons: 1) who wants their dad to die??? and 2) that sucker is heavy! Haha.

I tend to not care for most distortion pedals. Even as a young kid, I could tell they just didn't sound right to my ears. I love playing through a nice overdrive like an OCD or BB Preamp, though I must admit that I am in love with the ProCo Rat!

Cheers!

 

[TimeSignature]

For some reason I like the Express 5:50 more than the Mark...

 

[emperor_black]

If $1000 for a combo is a great deal, there is a guy here in Santa Cruz I think who is selling a Short Mark IV head (looks mint to me) for $930 O.B.O. :shock: he does however state that it needs new power tubes.

 

[ifailedshapes]

If $1000 for a combo is a great deal, there is a guy here in Santa Cruz I think who is selling a Short Mark IV head (looks mint to me) for $930 O.B.O. :shock: he does however state that it needs new power tubes.

I live near Sacramento, and if I had the cash, I would drive down there to buy that amp. If it's in as good a condition as you say it is, it's worth a lot more than $900 bucks, and I'd sell it for what it's actually worth. However, that is assuming we were in an economy where people can afford to buy gear like that!

 

[soundchaser59]

I have both the 5:50 and the Mark 5. The Mark 5 is loaded with gain and will definitely meet any heavy metal needs. If you want the Diezel kind of scooped metal, I would suggest running an EQ with the mids scooped around 400Hz.

So is the Express 5:50 good for metal? I can get some great heavy metal types tones with my Express 5:50 and a ceramic humbucker loaded Gibson Explorer. With any less of a guitar, it feels like there is a limited amount of gain available on the Express 5:50, but that's because there's lots of midrange on this amp. The best way to describe the Express 5:50 is like a Mark 5 but (as another forum member suggested) a slice of good sounds from a Mark series amp. You can't really dial in a bad sound. I personally suggest running a tube screamer in front if you need extra gain because they are very transparent on the tone of the distortion of the amp. That is, if you turn it on you hear the same distortion your amp is putting out without tone coloration. I've found it's the best pedal that does this. I would suggest the Turbo Tube Screamer because of the 4 different modes. That being said, I think there's lots of gain already available on this guy. The midrange kind of tone make you think there isn't a lot.

If you can afford a Mark 5, I highly suggest that one. You do get lots more gain and 3 usable channels. The Express 5:50 is a great rock amp and it can get heavy metal tones if you work with it. It can do Chevelle stuff with no problem. The other folks are right when they suggest a V30 loaded 2x12. The Vintage 30's make a big difference in tone, but you may still feel limited with what you're getting out.

My suggestion is that if you try the amp out and you don't get the sound you want, then just pass over the amp. I happen to love my Express 5:50 and my Mark 5. I also have a Dual Rectifier Road King II which I love as well. Different tools for different jobs. I would definitely buy an EQ for the amp to experiment with. I know there's lots of different kinds of metal. I think the Express 5:50 could do metal if you truly wanted it to though. If you're good, then it doesn't matter what amp you play through. It's certainly got the capability.

And I would personally try out both the 5:25 and 5:50 amps separately. They are so different sounding from each other. I hated the 5:25 but loved the 5:50. The EL84 tubes make the amp sound vastly different from the 6L6 loaded 5:50...almost more muddy because of the overdrive characteristics...that's why I don't pay attention to folks who own the 5:25 and give advice about the 5:50...they are too different to give an accurate comparison.

any less of a guitar? tube screamer is transparent? if you're good then the amp doesn't matter? the 5.25 and the 5.50 are too different? :shock:

Wow! Interesting..... now I have to rethink my entire paradigm.... 8)

 

[Newysurfer]

I have both the 5:50 and the Mark 5. The Mark 5 is loaded with gain and will definitely meet any heavy metal needs. If you want the Diezel kind of scooped metal, I would suggest running an EQ with the mids scooped around 400Hz.

So is the Express 5:50 good for metal? I can get some great heavy metal types tones with my Express 5:50 and a ceramic humbucker loaded Gibson Explorer. With any less of a guitar, it feels like there is a limited amount of gain available on the Express 5:50, but that's because there's lots of midrange on this amp. The best way to describe the Express 5:50 is like a Mark 5 but (as another forum member suggested) a slice of good sounds from a Mark series amp. You can't really dial in a bad sound. I personally suggest running a tube screamer in front if you need extra gain because they are very transparent on the tone of the distortion of the amp. That is, if you turn it on you hear the same distortion your amp is putting out without tone coloration. I've found it's the best pedal that does this. I would suggest the Turbo Tube Screamer because of the 4 different modes. That being said, I think there's lots of gain already available on this guy. The midrange kind of tone make you think there isn't a lot.

If you can afford a Mark 5, I highly suggest that one. You do get lots more gain and 3 usable channels. The Express 5:50 is a great rock amp and it can get heavy metal tones if you work with it. It can do Chevelle stuff with no problem. The other folks are right when they suggest a V30 loaded 2x12. The Vintage 30's make a big difference in tone, but you may still feel limited with what you're getting out.

My suggestion is that if you try the amp out and you don't get the sound you want, then just pass over the amp. I happen to love my Express 5:50 and my Mark 5. I also have a Dual Rectifier Road King II which I love as well. Different tools for different jobs. I would definitely buy an EQ for the amp to experiment with. I know there's lots of different kinds of metal. I think the Express 5:50 could do metal if you truly wanted it to though. If you're good, then it doesn't matter what amp you play through. It's certainly got the capability.

And I would personally try out both the 5:25 and 5:50 amps separately. They are so different sounding from each other. I hated the 5:25 but loved the 5:50. The EL84 tubes make the amp sound vastly different from the 6L6 loaded 5:50...almost more muddy because of the overdrive characteristics...that's why I don't pay attention to folks who own the 5:25 and give advice about the 5:50...they are too different to give an accurate comparison.

+1 for the most part.
I really like the 5:25 too but it is very different from the 5:50 . I just prefer 6L6 tube amps is all.
Different people have different definitions for what "metal" is so it's not easy to tie down this issue.
THe Etheral Widow guy from Iceland reckons the 5:50 is perfect for his "Doom" thing so that's great.
For me I only have use for Audioslave, Metallica type metal tones and I know the 5:50 won't do that unassisted by a pedal. Even thru an SG and a 2x12" closed cab with v30's.

That's where you need pedals. I've heard the Box of Metal and like it but wouldn't descibe it as close to a Rectifier tone. The old Boss Metal Zone is a horrible can of bees IMO and there's only a few decent metal pedals made. The Dirty Bomb is a good one and an MI-Audio Tube Zone too. The EH Metal Muff is ok (I have one) - a bit fizzy but craps on that shitty Boss Metal Zone. For the metal tones I use the Crunchbox midscooped with an MXR EQ pedal or the 5:50's contour dial do a great job.

But I've not heard any pedal that comes close to the quality of Rectifier or Mark V metal tones and I don't think they'll ever make a pedal that can compete with those. For me tube amp distortion always sounds much better than any pedal.

For me the Mark V is my dream amp. :mrgreen:

 

[ifailedshapes]

Copied and pasted from the manual: "Both Express models use the same super versatile, tone-packed preamp featuring two fully independent Channels, each of which contain two style enhanced modes to choose from when creating your footswitching preferences."

For all of you saying the 5:25 and 5:50 are SO different, ummmm, no they aren't! I know the difference between the sound of 6L6s and EL84s, but on any amp, most of the tone comes from the preamp. I am not saying the 5:25 and 5:50 are identical, but I am saying they are close enough.

Besides, there are so many other things that affect the sound you hear: the wood your guitar is made of, the pickups in that guitar, the strings on the guitar, the length and type of cable you use, whether or not you have any pedals in front of your amp, how the tone controls are set (we all know that Boogies have sensitive knobs), whether or not you have anything in the effects loop, the cabinet construction (i.e. dimensions, type of wood, front loaded vs back loaded), and then finally the speaker itself. There are so many possible variations!

 

[Newysurfer]

Copied and pasted from the manual: "Both Express models use the same super versatile, tone-packed preamp featuring two fully independent Channels, each of which contain two style enhanced modes to choose from when creating your footswitching preferences."

For all of you saying the 5:25 and 5:50 are SO different, ummmm, no they aren't! I know the difference between the sound of 6L6s and EL84s, but on any amp, most of the tone comes from the preamp. I am not saying the 5:25 and 5:50 are identical, but I am saying they are close enough.

Besides, there are so many other things that affect the sound you hear: the wood your guitar is made of, the pickups in that guitar, the strings on the guitar, the length and type of cable you use, whether or not you have any pedals in front of your amp, how the tone controls are set (we all know that Boogies have sensitive knobs), whether or not you have anything in the effects loop, the cabinet construction (i.e. dimensions, type of wood, front loaded vs back loaded), and then finally the speaker itself. There are so many possible variations!

I agree about halfway with you.
Firstly, I agree that the size of the cabinet and speaker types make a considerable difference to amp tones. The 5:25 and 5:50 have differences there so that's just another reason why they sound different IMO.

But I don't agree that the preamp produces most of the tone in most tube amps. There's been a huge amount of discussion on this exact issue in many forums over the years. Amp makers and electronics engineers have pitched in on both sides but my view is it's approx 50-50. Even if it was 60-40 to the preamp that 40% plus the other differences in speaker types and cabinet size account for very singificant tone differences.

You've also forgotten another big issue - clean headroom. The 5:50 has lots more of it and that's very important in gig situations when operating at 25 & 50 watts.

The proof of it, for me at least, is when I've A/B'ed both amps together with the same guitars. They sound different to me :mrgreen:

Same thing happens with the Lonestar Classic and Special. They sound different too.

 

[ifailedshapes]

First of all, I think it's humorous that the person who started this thread hasn't chimed in since the first page. :lol:

Secondly, you have a point about the clean headroom. For me, that's not an issue because I always mic my amp when I play live. I play mainly for churches and men's retreats, so keeping stage volume at a minimum is an absolute must! (We're a lot more professional than your average church. ) I can definitely see that being an issue for some people, though.

My point about preamp vs power amp is this: if you put EL34s in a Dual Rectifier, is still sounds like a Dual Rectifier. Is is different than 6L6s? Of course. Same with my Mark IV. I use 2 6L6 tubes and 2 EL34 tubes, and to be honest, it still sounds pretty much the same as all 6L6s. I can tell the difference, but most people (i.e. your audience) will never notice.

I agree that a 5:25 combo vs a 5:50 combo sound a lot different. I would argue that if you played them both through the same cabinet, they would start to sound a lot more similar.

As for the Lone Stars, those are completely different amps. They have a similar control layout, but their circuits are very, very different.