dual rec dissapointing me....may need a change???

[RoadKinger483]

what up guys, haven't been on here in quite some time.... been keeping really busy. anyway, i've been on a love/hate relationship with my dual rec for a couple of months now. whats really bothering me are the cleans or channel 1 in general. First off, i know these amps are known for not having the best clean tone but, its actually really decent. I love the cleans when im using overdrives such as my OCD, or Fulldrive. Actually, i pretty much like the way any high quality overdrive, distortion, or fuzz sounds on te clean channel. it has ths dar character to my ears thats perfect for dirt boxes in my opinion. That being said, the actual staright up clean on the amp is absolutely horrible right now. These are my 3 main electric guitars that I use at a gig....PRS Custom 22 with Seymour Duncan Pearly Gates in the bridge and 59 in the neck, a Fender Deluxe ash telecaster with Seymour Duncan Lil' 59 for tele in the bridge and stock neck SCN pickup, and a 60's reissue Fender Stratocaster with Kinman Woodstock pickups in it. Now, all 3 guitars have low to moderate pickups, however, all 3 push my clean channel into slight break up. The strat and tele surpise me the most. Anyway, im running the amp with EL34's in bold with silicon diode and have my channel setup as follows.... Presence - 3 o'clock, Volume - 3 o'clock, gain - 12 o'clock, bass - 9 o'clock, mids - 11 o'clock, and trebel - 12 o'clock. I know how the channel works about it dumping gain if you run the treble to high and all that stuff. According to the manual, all the settings on the channel appear to be in a good range to produce a descent clean tone but, its not the case. The headroom is horrible, the highs sound muffeled and the tone itself sounds lifeless no matter what I do. But, it sounds great with dirt boxes....im stuck at a crossroads. Any ideas as to what im doing wrong or any suggestions as to what I should try???? Thanx

 

[Triple Cheeseburger]

you will get more clean headroom using 6L6's than el34's. maybe run the gain a little lower and the master higher. i use the presence up pretty high so i can use less of the treble too.

 

[b0nkersx]

you will get more clean headroom using 6L6's than el34's. maybe run the gain a little lower and the master higher. i use the presence up pretty high so i can use less of the treble too.

I'm willing to bet he's not getting power tube breakup. I have often found that turning the channel master that high muffles the sound on clean channels.

I doubt you'll be able to get the same dirtbox sound AND a good clean sound from the same setting. I have a few suggestions, still.

1) If you aren't using anything in the loop, hit the hard loop/solo/output bypass switch on the back. This will let you turn the gain down and turn the master and treble straight up to compensate without having to re-match all of your other channel volumes. I find bypassing the loop makes channel matching 100x easier anyway.

2) If you are set on using the loop, try turning the "send" down on the back, and compensating with the output knob.This will affect all three channels, obviously, so you may need to re-tune your channel masters.

It is also possible you have a preamp tube heading south for winter, but I doubt it. I would try both of these first and see if they help. Also, are you using the greenback cab in your sig? A cabinet with 2 greenbacks and 2 v30s is rated at 100 watts instead of 190 watts (70+70+25+25, I'm not sure if you know this or not). This is because the amplifier will send out equal power to each speaker, so it won't send out more than 25W (greenback power handling) to any speaker, even if they can handle more (v30s). This is why it's recommended to use a power break or a fullstack if you're running a 100W head through greenback loaded cabinets. You may be getting speaker breakup.

 

[RoadKinger483]

thanx for the suggestions guys.... i gonna try some stuff out as to your suggestios. b0nkersx, no im not using the 4x12 cab in my sig. I am aware of the lower ouput ratingcause of the greenbacks but, i haven't used that cab in about close to a year. im usung a 2x12 recto cab with vintage 30's so i should be around 120 -140 watts on that cab. I'm quitefond of the loop however; i use it foe the solo boost and I run my T.C. nova delay through there also. The delay sounds way better in the loop. It actually did cross my mind about the whole preamp tue problem....i guess some tube swapping will be in order. If my mind serves me well im pretty sure it was about 4-5 months ago that i did a mandatory retube of the entire amp but who knows, maybe i got a bad one....anybody else have any other ideas or suggestions???

 

[KH Guitar Freak]

You may prefer cleans with 6L6s on board. If you are even more picky, perhaps try those Tung Sol EL34Bs. If not, you might want to get a Roadster or Road King II for cleans...

 

[YellowJacket]

Buy a vox AC30 and an A/B Box?

Isn't it fair to say complaining that the clean tones on a Dual Rectifier is kind of the same as complaining about the grit on the AC30? If it is a huge problem you could look into a Road King II or a Roadster and get the best of both worlds. It is a fair chunk of change either way.

 

[Triple Cheeseburger]

or an eq. i love my dual rec clean with my mxr 10 band.

 

[Heritage Softail]

I was ditching about getting a REC tone out of my MKV. Finally enough people said it was not possible, buy a REC and don't screw up the MKV trying to change tubes so it will sound like a REC. I took the advice. Problem solved. TubeDepot does have a premium tube upgrad kit and a good tube evaluation chart to help tailor tube selection for a certain sound characteristic you want. After saying that, I do not like the clean sound very much on the series 2 single rec I have. The REC is more of a stripper whereas the MKV is the marrying type.... :twisted:

 

[RoadKinger483]

It has crossed my mind to lay down some cash for an AC30 with Celestion Blues or a Lone Star or Lone Star Special (which I use to have and got rid of...HUGE MISTAKE). However, with the amount of gigs I have at the moment and the size of the places we play (small to modrate)...it really wouldn't be the ideal setup to carry around. I can nowhere near open up my dual rec to where i'd like without pissing off everyone in the band or annoying everyone in the bar. Anyway, im really starting to think i may have a tube problem that may only happen in channel one. Every other channel on the amp sounds great and everything else as far as fx loops and volumes are working normal. That being said, i think i may be the preamp tube in either V1 or V2. Does this sound like a good assumption???

 

[RoadKinger483]

i had to play a last minute gig lastnite with the amp and hereis what i noticed....the amp seemed really weak overall. the cleans weren't breaking up but seemed dull, lifeless, and muffeled. my drive channels sounded ok but seemed to lack power and that punchy, authoritive sound that these amps are known for. if this is a tube problem, which tubes are they... power or pre???? i checked them all and they all seem to be functioning ok. thanx

 

[Jerrick]

i had to play a last minute gig lastnite with the amp and hereis what i noticed....the amp seemed really weak overall. the cleans weren't breaking up but seemed dull, lifeless, and muffeled. my drive channels sounded ok but seemed to lack power and that punchy, authoritive sound that these amps are known for. if this is a tube problem, which tubes are they... power or pre???? i checked them all and they all seem to be functioning ok. thanx

Could be your rectifier tubes. I had a pair start to die out on me and had the symptoms you have described. Weak, no punch to it, lifeless. I switched over to solid state rectifiers and it was fine. Could be worth checking out if you are on tube rectifiers.

 

[RoadKinger483]

thanx jerrickfor the suggestion but, i run my amp on silicon diode mode. i was wondering though...how much effect does V5 preamp have on the amp??? does it have to be a preamp tube that is rated as a matched phase inverter???

 

[KH Guitar Freak]

Tell you what. One of the best poweramp valves I've tried that yields one of the best, if not the best, would be those Winged C 6L6s IME, bar NOS valves. Nevertheless, swapping valves is like changing the icing on a cake. If the cake isn't to your liking, the icing isn't going to help...

 

[Heritage Softail]

Tell you what. One of the best poweramp valves I've tried that yields one of the best, if not the best, would be those Winged C 6L6s IME, bar NOS valves. Nevertheless, swapping valves is like changing the icing on a cake. If the cake isn't to your liking, the icing isn't going to help...

Do you have any Winged C's in your amps? Satisfied?

 

[KH Guitar Freak]

Tell you what. One of the best poweramp valves I've tried that yields one of the best, if not the best, would be those Winged C 6L6s IME, bar NOS valves. Nevertheless, swapping valves is like changing the icing on a cake. If the cake isn't to your liking, the icing isn't going to help...

Do you have any Winged C's in your amps? Satisfied?

I've tried a few other amps with Winged Cs, but out of my personal collection, only my Roadster has a quad of their 6L6s. In terms of tonal quality, it sounds better in every way than the stock STR440 6L6s, but it was only minor differences IMO...

 

[RoadKinger483]

well after some experimentation with other amps I wound up being very with my buddies Marshall JCM 900!!! it has 6L6 tubes in it and it simply wiped the floor with my dual rec. I know for a fact that my mesa sounded tighter andbettr than the 900 about a year ago. Im starting to think thst maybe my dual needs a full retube with some 6L6's instead of EL34's. What are some signs to watch out for as far as your guys experiences when your amp eeds a retube??? thanx

 

[Heritage Softail]

well after some experimentation with other amps I wound up being very with my buddies Marshall JCM 900!!! it has 6L6 tubes in it and it simply wiped the floor with my dual rec. I know for a fact that my mesa sounded tighter andbettr than the 900 about a year ago. Im starting to think thst maybe my dual needs a full retube with some 6L6's instead of EL34's. What are some signs to watch out for as far as your guys experiences when your amp eeds a retube??? thanx

Your REC must be sick. I have a JCM900. It is a cheapie tube Marshall, IMO, and is OK at best. I put SED 6L6 Winged C's and Tung Sol 12AX7's in my REC, Single Rec Series 2. Seemed to give it more note defenition, a little easier to grind out pinch harmonics more easily.

There is no way that on any day my pos JCM900 could hand with the Single Rec now that it has fresh tubes. Or maybe the 900 needs some tube love.... ? Nah, that money will go to a set of Winged C EL34s for the MKV to try that out.

For good cleans I have a Fender Blues Deluxe. Loud as hell for a little combo. Works good as a little cab too. I only have Mesa heads.

 

[RoadKinger483]

I think i am gonna go with an entire retube for the amp. I really wanna stay with EL34's though. Have any of you guys used the Winged C EL34's in your rectifiers??? It's between a quad of those, Electro Hamonix EL34's, or some JJ E34L's. What are your thoughts or opinions on these??? I just wanna get some outside input before i drop down $200 for a retube. Thanx

By the way....im more than likely gonna go with Electro Harmonix for Preamp and rectifier tubes. I've always had good luck with Electro Harmonix tubes but, im always willing to try something different. Do you guys have any other suggestions for this also??? thanx

 

[RoadKinger483]

ok, here's what I did for the mean time....i refuse to give up on my rectifier so, i took out the brand new quad of Groove Tube 6L6S (pretty much JJ 6L6's) that I had in my Twin Reverb and put them in the recto. it made a noticeable difference in the cleans but didnt really care for the differecnce in channels 2 and 3. So, i decided to start swapping out preamp tubes. I wound up mix and matching and replacing all 5. I wound up with some Mullards n V2 and V3 to smooth out the drive amp was and a Russian tube in V1 instead of the chinese tub i had been using in there. The amp was starting to come alive again. I then proceeded to swap out both vintage 30's in my 2x12 cab with 2 greenbacks....WHALA!!!! The amp sounds great. No fizzy, fuzzy drive, smooth rounded mids, and no overwhelming or flubby bass. might i add that the headroom on the clean channel is great also. a combination of all these cha excited again and anxious to play this weekend. ill report back after saturday totell u guys how it went.

 

[YellowJacket]

Greenbacks in a 2x12!? =-o

Get another 2 x 12 and load it with greenbacks. QUICK!!
50watts handling power up against a 100watt head is just asking for a blown speaker or two. I'm with you though, I LOVE the Greenbacks but I prefer to mix them with v30s.