straitouttahell
Well-known member
secretsoundz said:
BTW, I have read the most of this thread and I still haven't read a single name of a guitarist/band that has a guitar sound which gets close to being desirable...
disillusioned by mark iv and Mesa in general
- Thread starter phyrexia
- Start date
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BTW, I have read the most of this thread and I still haven't read a single name of a guitarist/band that has a guitar sound which gets close to being desirable...
siggy14
Well-known member
Rabies,
I use to be just like you, crazy over the bias thing, jumping from Amp to Amp always in search of the next best thing. What I found out of all the amps was mesa was my thing, second thing I learned is ditch the crap *** tubes any company ships with there amps, unless they are shipping good stuff.
Here is what I have learned about the bias thing, first off with an amp that makes mostly pre-amp distortion, you actually want the power section to be cold, not super cold and I will admit with stock mesa tubes it will be super cold, however they have changed that in the last two years since people were complaining and jumping ship to tubes from other tube companies. This has been confirmed by Trace at voodoo amps about the bias being hotter now.
But the reason you want the power section to be cold is, alot of preamp distortion+power distortion=mush.
Now if you are planning on keeping the gain way down on any of your amps, and I dont mean half way down, i mean down to the point that it makes just as much as say a Marshall Plexi without power tube distortion, then yes you want to get your bias hot so you get that power amp distortion cranking as well. Now since you listen to metal, I am gonna take it you like the preamp distortion.
Even Bogner backs this up, he may not tell you directly, but typical EL34 bias should be 35 to 40, however read the uberschall manual and it tells you flat out, bias it around 25 +/- 3, so anywhere from 22 to 28 and that is considered cold.
Mesa Ships usually with a bias of about 19 to 24, however range on 6L6's is 30 to 35, so has you can see there is really no difference between the Mesa fixed Bias and the Uberschall adjustible bias when you go by the manfactors instructions.
Now to VHT, Diezel, Engl, etc. honestly yeah they sound tight as hell with gobs of distortion, however they just have this solid statish vibe to them. yeah they are still warm, but not as warm as a mesa. However they are passible and good amps, just not warm enough for me.
Bogners are the only other high gain amps that i feel are warm enough that I have personaly played or heard live, I had the uberschall great amp, however very dark amp, by cranking the mid's or I should say the presense I could get it close to the recto, but it still was not a recto!
As to the Rivera I have never played any of there high gain stuff, but I have heard good stuff about them, but then again it is usually from the people that play diezels and ENGL's etc...
As to Slipknot, Tool and you saying good things about these amps. You I dont know that well, but I have seen your postings and I am gonna take it you are early to mid 20's still trying to find your tone and letting peoples opinions sway you to much without actuall faqs to back it up.
Slipknot, well lets just says they are whores, they will endorse anything if they get paid enough. Best slipknot tone, first album, James Root into Mesa DC10 and Mick used a Marshall JMP-1 into a mesa 2/90 power amp.
Tool, you can not judge his tone by the Diezel alone, last I heard he is still mixing amps together, more then likley if he is using that marshall still, well that is were his warmth comes from.
Bias mod, here is my take on it, like I said I was like you, went crazy about it for awhile, but then did research and found out you want that bias cold on a high preamp gain beast.
If you want to bring the bias up on a mesa amp, Order yourself any tube brand you want, tell them it is going in a rectifier, mark or whatever amp you have and tell them you need something to bring the bias up a little warmer.
Any good tube dealer should know the spec's of mesa's and give you the right tube to help the bias out. I know the tube store does, Eurotubes does, the tube depot etc..
As to your JMP-1 going into the mesa and squealing etc.. Honestly dude the amp is not made for that, do yourself a favor, go pick up a used Mesa 50/50, the older ones that only took 6l6'S can usualy be purchased used anywhere from $400 to $500. Order some tubes from a good tube company and tell them you want to get the bias a little warmer in it and you will be set.
I am also not biased just towards mesa, it is my main sound, however I do have some JCM800's sitting in my room, I love the peavey 5150's for a different style of music and I have a bogner XTC in my room. But my main stays are mesa and the amp I always go back to.
I use to be just like you, crazy over the bias thing, jumping from Amp to Amp always in search of the next best thing. What I found out of all the amps was mesa was my thing, second thing I learned is ditch the crap *** tubes any company ships with there amps, unless they are shipping good stuff.
Here is what I have learned about the bias thing, first off with an amp that makes mostly pre-amp distortion, you actually want the power section to be cold, not super cold and I will admit with stock mesa tubes it will be super cold, however they have changed that in the last two years since people were complaining and jumping ship to tubes from other tube companies. This has been confirmed by Trace at voodoo amps about the bias being hotter now.
But the reason you want the power section to be cold is, alot of preamp distortion+power distortion=mush.
Now if you are planning on keeping the gain way down on any of your amps, and I dont mean half way down, i mean down to the point that it makes just as much as say a Marshall Plexi without power tube distortion, then yes you want to get your bias hot so you get that power amp distortion cranking as well. Now since you listen to metal, I am gonna take it you like the preamp distortion.
Even Bogner backs this up, he may not tell you directly, but typical EL34 bias should be 35 to 40, however read the uberschall manual and it tells you flat out, bias it around 25 +/- 3, so anywhere from 22 to 28 and that is considered cold.
Mesa Ships usually with a bias of about 19 to 24, however range on 6L6's is 30 to 35, so has you can see there is really no difference between the Mesa fixed Bias and the Uberschall adjustible bias when you go by the manfactors instructions.
Now to VHT, Diezel, Engl, etc. honestly yeah they sound tight as hell with gobs of distortion, however they just have this solid statish vibe to them. yeah they are still warm, but not as warm as a mesa. However they are passible and good amps, just not warm enough for me.
Bogners are the only other high gain amps that i feel are warm enough that I have personaly played or heard live, I had the uberschall great amp, however very dark amp, by cranking the mid's or I should say the presense I could get it close to the recto, but it still was not a recto!
As to the Rivera I have never played any of there high gain stuff, but I have heard good stuff about them, but then again it is usually from the people that play diezels and ENGL's etc...
As to Slipknot, Tool and you saying good things about these amps. You I dont know that well, but I have seen your postings and I am gonna take it you are early to mid 20's still trying to find your tone and letting peoples opinions sway you to much without actuall faqs to back it up.
Slipknot, well lets just says they are whores, they will endorse anything if they get paid enough. Best slipknot tone, first album, James Root into Mesa DC10 and Mick used a Marshall JMP-1 into a mesa 2/90 power amp.
Tool, you can not judge his tone by the Diezel alone, last I heard he is still mixing amps together, more then likley if he is using that marshall still, well that is were his warmth comes from.
Bias mod, here is my take on it, like I said I was like you, went crazy about it for awhile, but then did research and found out you want that bias cold on a high preamp gain beast.
If you want to bring the bias up on a mesa amp, Order yourself any tube brand you want, tell them it is going in a rectifier, mark or whatever amp you have and tell them you need something to bring the bias up a little warmer.
Any good tube dealer should know the spec's of mesa's and give you the right tube to help the bias out. I know the tube store does, Eurotubes does, the tube depot etc..
As to your JMP-1 going into the mesa and squealing etc.. Honestly dude the amp is not made for that, do yourself a favor, go pick up a used Mesa 50/50, the older ones that only took 6l6'S can usualy be purchased used anywhere from $400 to $500. Order some tubes from a good tube company and tell them you want to get the bias a little warmer in it and you will be set.
I am also not biased just towards mesa, it is my main sound, however I do have some JCM800's sitting in my room, I love the peavey 5150's for a different style of music and I have a bogner XTC in my room. But my main stays are mesa and the amp I always go back to.
rabies said:
straitouttahell
Well-known member
siggy14 said:
Engl sucks.
Had to write it somewhere
Tried the Screamer, the Powerball, the Sovereign and the Savage SE. Good for metal and just for that. Just tons of basses, piercing highs and an unfocused, scooped swarm of mosquitos in between. Trying to roll down the presence made them sound like a POD.
The little ones, like the Screamer and the Powerball, retain good PriceVS features value, but seeing *Engl* compared with *Mesa* drives me mad.
Like comparing a korean made Chevrolet to a good ole Stingray.
siggy14
Well-known member
Sounds like you are truly an marshall type fan with alot of gain. You might really want to try out the splawns, that new one that is suppose to have alot of gain is suppose to be killer.
As to mesa, I dont think they will offer you anything that you will like besides the stiletto and I read your post on what happened to the last one you had. Mesa is based around 6L6's, even with the recto's ability to switch to EL34's, they are not really designed for it and to me is more of a gimick.
As to Eurotubes, for a S120 that would be right, you would want the bias up. At the same time watch out for Eurotubes, I just lost alot of respect for them, I got shipped a bad tube and they tried to blame it on me. In the long run they kept switching there stories up everytime I countered there argument with knowledge. Little did they know they were dealing with someone that use to be a certified electronic technician and knows about tubes, even though, they still had to always get in the last punch.
In the long run they knew they lost a customer because of they way they treated me, so they finaly gave in, refunded me the money but told me never to contact them for support again. Like I would ever contact them again, but Bob and Jay like to double team you and try to confuse you, they just dont have there stories straight.
As to mesa, I dont think they will offer you anything that you will like besides the stiletto and I read your post on what happened to the last one you had. Mesa is based around 6L6's, even with the recto's ability to switch to EL34's, they are not really designed for it and to me is more of a gimick.
As to Eurotubes, for a S120 that would be right, you would want the bias up. At the same time watch out for Eurotubes, I just lost alot of respect for them, I got shipped a bad tube and they tried to blame it on me. In the long run they kept switching there stories up everytime I countered there argument with knowledge. Little did they know they were dealing with someone that use to be a certified electronic technician and knows about tubes, even though, they still had to always get in the last punch.
In the long run they knew they lost a customer because of they way they treated me, so they finaly gave in, refunded me the money but told me never to contact them for support again. Like I would ever contact them again, but Bob and Jay like to double team you and try to confuse you, they just dont have there stories straight.
rabies said:
siggy14
Well-known member
Like I said in my previous post, by yourself a good power amp and stop using the mark IV. It is a good get me by, but honestly for a preamp you need a power amp designed for it.
If money is not an option I would go with a mesa 2/90, alot of headroom, plus you have the half power option, the deep option and the modern option so it gives you many different tones. You might just like it with that combination.
I have two JMP-1's, one is voodoo modded, the second is normal and no I havent done a sit down comparison yet side by side. I still need to set them up where they both have the same preamp tubes, create patches exactly the same on each etc.. I do know Vivian Campbell from Def Leapard uses the voodoo modded JMP-1's and in my opinion his tone is always way better then Phil's.
Anyway my point being, with either of my JMP-1's or My ADA-1 I prefer running them through the 6L6 Side of my Randall RT power amp. I keep the bias not to cold and not to warm on that amp and all the preamps sound killer. I tend to find the JMP's to sound thin with the EL34's and that is why i suggest the 6L6's with it, gives you some thump while retaining that british voicing.
If money is not an option I would go with a mesa 2/90, alot of headroom, plus you have the half power option, the deep option and the modern option so it gives you many different tones. You might just like it with that combination.
I have two JMP-1's, one is voodoo modded, the second is normal and no I havent done a sit down comparison yet side by side. I still need to set them up where they both have the same preamp tubes, create patches exactly the same on each etc.. I do know Vivian Campbell from Def Leapard uses the voodoo modded JMP-1's and in my opinion his tone is always way better then Phil's.
Anyway my point being, with either of my JMP-1's or My ADA-1 I prefer running them through the 6L6 Side of my Randall RT power amp. I keep the bias not to cold and not to warm on that amp and all the preamps sound killer. I tend to find the JMP's to sound thin with the EL34's and that is why i suggest the 6L6's with it, gives you some thump while retaining that british voicing.
rabies said:
JOEY B.
Well-known member
FWIW, I love the sound of a tube amp being pushed "over the edge". But in the case of the MkIIC+, III, or IV, the sweet spot seems to be 26-32 mA of idle current draw. When playing the clean channels, the 70% rule of current draw will help to smooth out your tone. If this amount of current draw is combined with the hellish preamp gain of the lead channel, it does not have the lows or the highs that the Mark series amps are known for. Hence the term "power tube compression". Great in some amps, but not for the Boogie at full tilt. MESA designs their preamps around a colder running power section. You might want to re-visit the Stiletto, which also sounds very good at 27 mA of idle current draw. 8)
secretsoundz
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rabies said:
Your signature says "no more Mesa's, **** straight"
If you dislike Mesa so much then go away and stay away. No one gives a ****! Go find another forum to troll on.
secretsoundz
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rabies said:
The results are in... 9 out of 10 forum users believe "rabies" is mentally retarded!! Thanks for voting!
Silverwulf
Well-known member
siggy14 said:
Hey man, sorry to hear about your trouble with Eurotubes. I've never had any problems (yet) with Bob and crew, so that's still where I buy all my JJ's until further notice. I've heard horror stories about all the tube dealers so far, Eurotubes included. I've had my fair share of disagreements with Doug at Dougstubes to the point where I won't buy from him anymore. It's a no win situation... 8)
I did recently order from The Tube Depot down in TN. Only dealt with them once, but the customer service rep was great I spoke with. I placed an order early one day online via Paypal and my tubes had already arrived by early the next afternoon. Here's the link:
http://tubedepot.com/
siggy14
Well-known member
Thanks Jack, yeah I knew about the tube depot, who by the way bob decided to trash in an email. Anyway I never had problems with Eurotubes before this last time and I have ordered many tubes, but never again from him!
Landon said the rackmount sounded killer in practice, he is thinking of buying my mark IV.
Landon said the rackmount sounded killer in practice, he is thinking of buying my mark IV.
Silverwulf said:
Silverwulf
Well-known member
siggy14 said:
YES! I'm glad someone else sees this too and hears the same thing I do. VHT, ENGL, Diezel, etc...all those guys have amps that are tight as hell, BUT...they all have this solid state, POD-ish (I'm not saying they SOUND like POD's) dynamic and character to them. Whatever filtering and such they're doing to tighten up the amp up front is definitely sucking some soul out of it, and in the end, it ends up lacking warmth. I don't get that from tube amps from Mesa, Marshall, Fender, etc.
siggy14 said:
+1 to this too. Of the Bogners I've tried, they tended to fall somewhere in the middle. They are definitely a little warmer than Diezels and such, but they aren't quite there like a Mesa. I wouldn't hesitate to use one though.
Silverwulf
Well-known member
rabies said:
If you get a Version 2, then it has the Mark and Recto voicings in it. Version 1 doesn't have the Recto board, nor do the recent ones that ship. Just got another myself and forgot how much I truly liked them. I use both clean modes for various things and tend to gravitate more towards Lead 2 Yellow (IIC+) and Lead 2 Green (IV) for heavier stuff.
Silverwulf
Well-known member
siggy14 said:
I don't doubt it. It's quick and easy for me at the moment since he has my contact info stored, I just call him up, say what I need, and then my tubes usually arrive in 2 days and it just takes about 1 minute on the phone. If I start getting bum tubes, that's another story!
The Recto sounds good. Honestly, with similar tubes...it's sounding nearly identical to the other Rectos we've had in there recently. We're tracking 3 songs right now for a promo, and the first two songs had a '92 Rev F on it as the primary amp (2 tracks) and a Splawn QR and MK III track for us to blend if we want. The last of the 3 had the rackmount Recto in place of the Rev F and you wouldn't be able to tell them apart. I'll have to send some rough clips to you.
Landon did mention buying the Mark IV, sounds really interested in it. He loves his MK III, but I think the shared EQ is driving him crazy since he wants better cleans (live).
Just got the Triaxis in today, so lookig forward to firing it up tonight.
Force
Well-known member
Well, opinions are like......everybody has one. To each his own i say. personally, I have played Marshalls AND Fenders most of my life, ie: JCM 800, JCM 900, JCM 2000 TSL, Prosonics, Tonemasters, Bassman's, Delux 'Verbs, and more, ie: Peavey's 5150, Peavey Ultra, XXX, PLUS a few boutique amps thrown in along the way (Fatboy, VHT, Soldano)
So, I think I am at least partially qualified to say, I believe I did not give anything up when I bought My Mark IV and stopped biasing amps. I have put two complete sets of matched power tubes in my mark IV so far, and a full complement of preamp tubes each time over the last three years.
I have also tried all the various combinations of Mk IV settings with both EL34's in the end sockets and w/o them. The only thing i have not done is try the 6V6's, and if i ever pick up anopther Mark IV, I amy go that route on the 2nd amp.
I promise you, in all honesty, the Mark IV imo is the best sounding, most versatile amp on the planet. There may be a few one trick ponys that are better and doing one thing, but I give Mesa a helluva lot of credit for the well thought out design and performance of the Mark IV. She's not perfect, but awful **** close.
And as far as users, check out the artist videos on the mesa website, even the heaviest bands are using the IV (Chevelle, Lamb of God, Dream Theater).
Well, I play mostly blues, rock, and hard rock. If the Mark didn't get the job done at the pro gigging and recording level, trust me, I would not still own the amp. Mine IS a compacet combo, though i had it in a rackmount kit for awhile. If I really want extra oever the top sound, i go through my 4x12, which is 2 EVM12L' and @ Black Shadow MC 90's, and it is BRUTAL, for any style.
With the EQ, there is nothing you cannot do, and there is much ado about the EQ isn't there? I think that is why Steve Fryette over at VHT offers them on his amps.
So, I think I am at least partially qualified to say, I believe I did not give anything up when I bought My Mark IV and stopped biasing amps. I have put two complete sets of matched power tubes in my mark IV so far, and a full complement of preamp tubes each time over the last three years.
I have also tried all the various combinations of Mk IV settings with both EL34's in the end sockets and w/o them. The only thing i have not done is try the 6V6's, and if i ever pick up anopther Mark IV, I amy go that route on the 2nd amp.
I promise you, in all honesty, the Mark IV imo is the best sounding, most versatile amp on the planet. There may be a few one trick ponys that are better and doing one thing, but I give Mesa a helluva lot of credit for the well thought out design and performance of the Mark IV. She's not perfect, but awful **** close.
And as far as users, check out the artist videos on the mesa website, even the heaviest bands are using the IV (Chevelle, Lamb of God, Dream Theater).
Well, I play mostly blues, rock, and hard rock. If the Mark didn't get the job done at the pro gigging and recording level, trust me, I would not still own the amp. Mine IS a compacet combo, though i had it in a rackmount kit for awhile. If I really want extra oever the top sound, i go through my 4x12, which is 2 EVM12L' and @ Black Shadow MC 90's, and it is BRUTAL, for any style.
With the EQ, there is nothing you cannot do, and there is much ado about the EQ isn't there? I think that is why Steve Fryette over at VHT offers them on his amps.
Force
Well-known member
change is good.
fyi, i did play a Roasdster head, pretty nice. i was tempted truthfully, but for $1800.00, i didn't think i was getting all that much more than i already have.....and two grand by the time u add the tax on, well, that will pay a lot of bills and keep those ******* bill collectors off my back. :evil:
anyway, i am sure you will agree, regardless of how many artists/bands use a particular brand/model, we are hopefully buying what works for us individually regardless of the Zakk Wylde's, Tony Rombolo's, Andy Timmon's and John Petrucci's of the world.....all this stuff about getting someone's else tone, i never did get it...
peace,
Force
fyi, i did play a Roasdster head, pretty nice. i was tempted truthfully, but for $1800.00, i didn't think i was getting all that much more than i already have.....and two grand by the time u add the tax on, well, that will pay a lot of bills and keep those ******* bill collectors off my back. :evil:
anyway, i am sure you will agree, regardless of how many artists/bands use a particular brand/model, we are hopefully buying what works for us individually regardless of the Zakk Wylde's, Tony Rombolo's, Andy Timmon's and John Petrucci's of the world.....all this stuff about getting someone's else tone, i never did get it...
peace,
Force
Force
Well-known member
hey rabies, for the record, just to be fair and unbiased, i owned a TBR2 rack mounted beast and played through it w/ a Rivera 4x12 and a 5150 4x12 from '97 to '00. it was a very good sounding amp, and pardon me if i say very "Mark-ish" in nature :wink:
I actually bought a brand new Knucklehead when I traded the TBR, but after awhile with it, i realized the Knucklehead was not the amp for me.
I have a great respect for Paul Rivera's designs, he is a great amp builder.
I actually bought a brand new Knucklehead when I traded the TBR, but after awhile with it, i realized the Knucklehead was not the amp for me.
I have a great respect for Paul Rivera's designs, he is a great amp builder.
Force
Well-known member
great idea, Randall on video, i wanna hear him talk about the new Mark V :lol:
adrenaline junkie
Well-known member
Aart said:
If you get lucky enough to get a tube that's in the range your amp needs, you won't hear much difference between that and a properly biased amp. But most of the time Mesa's have extremely cold bias, and could sound better if you could bias them. This isn't something RS is ever going to change because he's stubborn about the way he's doing it.
Try biasing a Marshall at 12mA like some Mesa's are, then bias it correctly and you'll hear a huge tone difference and improvement.
I've been disillusioned with it at times. Mine is in for a new transformer and drive pot atm. I have a JMP and a JCM900 which I love but watching mine and others clips on youtube, GOD I WANT THE MARK IV BACK NOW!!!
I know that it if I ever sold it I would feel the same way.
ps, if you don't like R2 you aren't playing loud enough, you've gotta get the windows shaking!! either that or hotplate : )
I know that it if I ever sold it I would feel the same way.
ps, if you don't like R2 you aren't playing loud enough, you've gotta get the windows shaking!! either that or hotplate : )
