Calling all IIIC+ owners

[EOengineer]

I need a little deciding whether or not this modification may be right for me. I just scooped a loaded blue stripe for a steal, but upon reading up on this revision, am a bit concerned it may be a pretty significant departure from the smooth liquid high gain tones I think of getting with a boogie. The amp is shipping tomorrow, and I'm considering having the shipper send it to Petaluma.

I'm not really interested in replicating a 2C+, but want that smooth vocal high gain tone. Any + modded blue stripers have any input?

Where does the cost land on this? I've seen varying reports.

 

[DaveP]

Once the amp is modded to a III+ they will all be the same. Meaning the stripe at that point will not matter.
I have had several 3+'s and they smooth out the lead tone. Mark III's are on the bright side by nature, this will tame that brightness down
and get it closer to the C+ lead tone.

 

[Facelift]

I have a simulclass blue stripe and i can tell you right now, without ever hearing a "III+" that you dont want to do the mod. Dude, the blue stripe just the way it is stock will make you smile ear to ear once you dial it in. Ive actually read a few comments on here where MB at Mesa says that it will change the amp and it may or may not be to your liking. The lead tone on the blue stripe is as ripping as it gets and can be smoothed out with playing with the knobs. Get yourself a couple RFT ecc83 preamp tubes and it will tame how bright the amp is and give you not only a smoother darker tone, it will give you a very noticable bottom end chunk that any metalhead will crave. I say dont do it until you play through it stock and find that its not smooth enough to your liking. I can almost guarantee that you wont want to change it once you hear it. The RFT ecc83 in V1 and V3 tames the brightness like I said but still keeps it nice and vocal. you wont be disappointed.

 

[Neptical]

As already mentioned, I wouldn't do it until you can make the decision for yourself. I've heard 2 Mark III owners say that actually liked it better without the mod. I'm pretty sure I've read that Mike B. has said that if you already like your amp, don't do the mod.

I don't have any problems at all getting liquid smooth lead tones out of either of my IIIs, so I don't really get the mod to begin with. As Facelift pretty much already said, the choice of tubes ( especially preamp/12AX7s) is key - and obviously speakers/cabs,pickup/guitar. These amps are so sensative that simple tube changes can make it a whole different beast. Slap a little delay in the loop and hang on for the ride!

 

[EOengineer]

As already mentioned, I wouldn't do it until you can make the decision for yourself. I've heard 2 Mark III owners say that actually liked it better without the mod. I'm pretty sure I've read that Mike B. has said that if you already like your amp, don't do the mod.

I don't have any problems at all getting liquid smooth lead tones out of either of my IIIs, so I don't really get the mod to begin with. As Facelift pretty much already said, the choice of tubes ( especially preamp/12AX7s) is key - and obviously speakers/cabs,pickup/guitar. These amps are so sensative that simple tube changes can make it a whole different beast. Slap a little delay in the loop and hang on for the ride!

This is seemingly good advice that I'm going to follow. I also want to clarify why I asked about the mod because I've received some rather standoffish pms regarding how a mark III will never sound like a 2C+.

I'm not interested in making my III sound like a C+. I am interested in working within the boundaries of the Mark III. What I was looking for was some input on whether the mod may help bring out some of the elements I would like to enhance, such as the vocal mid range, and liquid type sustain.

I welcome any discussion on tube recommendations, or any conversation related to achieving this goal. If you are just writing to try to be divisive, for whatever reason, find a different person and a different thread. Thanks to those who have contributed constructively.

 

[cjvolker]

I wouldn't get the + mod if I were you and I'm saying this as a very happy and proud IIC+ owner.

A long time ago I was in a similar situation as you. I was also looking to get close to the smooth, organic and vocal sounds that the IIC+ is so well known for.
I couldn't afford a IIC+ so I thought, why not get the next best thing, a Mark III and have it modded to a IIIC+ but while I was waiting for a good deal on a Mark III I've actually come across a pretty cheap IIC with a very unusual serial number which would indicate the amp to be a IIA.
At this point I was pretty close to let this one slip but I gave Mike B. a call because I was curious about this weird IIA/IIC.
I sent him pictures of the amp in the hope that he could clarify what it was. He told me that the amp in question started out as a IIA and was later modified to a IIC. It had a preamp board swap but the power transformer was the original IIA unit. It had lots of mismatched parts and was far from being a collectors item but the thing that worried me most was that it had the 60/100 and not the smoother Simul-Class power section.

I had long talks with Mike B. about the amp and if it was suitable for me and he told me not to worry.
He said these are very versatile amps, there's lots of things I could do to get the tone I want and if I send it in he can do the + mod and it ill be a real IIC+, just a different flavour.
I kept bugging him, asking silly questions of maybe buying a separate Simul-Class power amp and slaving the preamp through it or finding different used parts so that he can use them to build the amp to Simul-Class specs but all he kept saying was that I should try the amp first, I might just be surprised.

At that point I didn't really know what to do. Every time I read posts about the IIC+ in this forum it seemed that there was much more praise for the capabilities, dynamics and smoothness of the Simul-Class amps and the tones they can achieve and I've even read that the 60/100 can be even harsh sounding compared to the Simul-Class amps.
I didn't have enough money for a fully loaded IIC+ so I took the plunge and bought this weird IIA/IIC with the hopes that when I send it to Mesa for the + mod that Mike will work his magic and in the end I will have an amp that maybe, just maybe if I'm lucky enough might just get close to that IIC+ dream tone I keep hearing in my head.

The first time I heard this amp I was blown away, I completely forgot about that dream tone in my head and replaced it with whatever sweet sounds came out of that speaker in front of me.
I'm still tweaking every day but not to find better tones but rather to discover and explore the vast spectrum of tones and styles this little beast is able to master.
Needless to say, I found my smooth tone and everything else I was looking for in this weird IIA/IIC+ 60/100 contraption.

I'm getting a smooth tone by keeping the "Presence" quite low and per Mike's recommendation I'm also connecting my 16 ohm cab to the 8 ohm speaker output on the amplifier which makes your tone rounder, smoother and also a bit darker and I'm using Celestion Greenbacks which are known for their smooth sound.
There's much more you can do to get a smooth tone and the Mark III definitely gives you more than enough options to achieve that goal.

I personally think that Mark III's were not meant to be IIC+'s. They have a different unique voicing which should be embraced rather than trying to alter it with modifications. To me the +mod just doesn't sound right on a Mark III.

The moral of the story, trust your ears and not just something you've read on the internet.
Don't get discouraged, the Mark series are tweaker amps, spend time with them and you'll be rewarded with heavenly tone.
And as others have already said, these are very sensitive and revealing amps and pickups, speakers, cables, tubes can all make a big difference.

I'm pretty sure you'll find what you're looking for and even more in a stock Mark III.
Now get your amp and stop bothering us :mrgreen:

 

[igfraso]

Most probably, besides connecting the 16 ohm cab to the 8 ohm speaker output on the amplifier, Mike also told you to run the amp on 100 watt if you wanted to mimic the Simul-Class sound.

 

[Neptical]

As already mentioned, I wouldn't do it until you can make the decision for yourself. I've heard 2 Mark III owners say that actually liked it better without the mod. I'm pretty sure I've read that Mike B. has said that if you already like your amp, don't do the mod.

I don't have any problems at all getting liquid smooth lead tones out of either of my IIIs, so I don't really get the mod to begin with. As Facelift pretty much already said, the choice of tubes ( especially preamp/12AX7s) is key - and obviously speakers/cabs,pickup/guitar. These amps are so sensative that simple tube changes can make it a whole different beast. Slap a little delay in the loop and hang on for the ride!

This is seemingly good advice that I'm going to follow. I also want to clarify why I asked about the mod because I've received some rather standoffish pms regarding how a mark III will never sound like a 2C+.

I'm not interested in making my III sound like a C+. I am interested in working within the boundaries of the Mark III. What I was looking for was some input on whether the mod may help bring out some of the elements I would like to enhance, such as the vocal mid range, and liquid type sustain.

I welcome any discussion on tube recommendations, or any conversation related to achieving this goal. If you are just writing to try to be divisive, for whatever reason, find a different person and a different thread. Thanks to those who have contributed constructively.

Hey man,no problem - anytime!

Some advice on some tube recommendations. I've had my (long and expensive) run experimenting with some very nice NOS tubes with my Mark IIIs. As much as I love me some good ole NOS tubes in these babies, I've had to be realistic about spending money on tubes since pricing on them is getting out of this world. It's been fun experimenting, but I've found identical tonal qualities in new production tubes. It's nice to have another of the same amp lying around to compare with to make sure I'm not completely losing my mind. I've had the chance to compare in my purple stripe, my red stripe..and now recently my buddies blue stripe.

Anyways, I've found that using a mix of new production preamp/12AX7 Tung-Sol (especially V1),EH (V2),EH Goldpin (V3), EH (V4) and Sovtek LPS (V5) have worked extremely well along with the Winged =C= EL34 and 6L6 power tubes. Very warm and rich with singing sustain, and smooth top end . I keep moving my 12AX7s around but haven't found a single bad position of the tubes yet - with the exception that I'm keeping the Tung Sol in V1. Those tubes are everything you hear about. The Winged =C=s very much remind me of those old Slyvania,RCA,Telefunken, and Teslas. So smooth and fat!

This is only based on my on personal experience that I've been really happy with. It's alot of fun experimenting with tubes with these amps. Have fun and enjoy!

 

[cjvolker]

Most probably, besides connecting the 16 ohm cab to the 8 ohm speaker output on the amplifier, Mike also told you to run the amp on 100 watt if you wanted to mimic the Simul-Class sound.

Yes you're right, he did say that.

I think he explained to me that running on 60W the amp is actually ideally looking for a 16 ohm load even though it's connected to the 8 ohm speaker output which in that case would be a perfect match with my 16 ohm cab and would therefore sound more raw than using the 100W setting which would be a 8/16 ohm mismatch that smoothes out the sound, if that makes any sense.

 

[igfraso]

Right. If I recall it properly, he told me that if you have a 60/100 combo with the usual 8 ohm speaker, running it on 100 W and with the speaker connected into the 8 ohm output, is the same as running it on 60 W with the combo speaker connected to the 4 ohm output.
But if you run the amp on 100 W and connect the combo speaker into the 4 ohm output (a 4/8 ohm mismtach), you smoothen the tone and it mimics the Simul-Class sound.

One more thing for EQengineer, since you are interested in working within the boundaries of the Mark III, make sure you do the R2 Volume mod which will allow you to set independently the volumes of the 3 channels (Mike recommends it very warmly).
Also, check if it already came from the factory with the Reverb mod done (you will see an "R" at the back of the chassis; if not, do it.

 

[EOengineer]

The amp came from the factory with the reverb mod, which is great. I am VERY interested in the R2 mod, and imagine this is something any Mesa authorized repair service can knock out pretty inexpensively.

 

[SonicProvocateur]

The R2 mod is pretty much the only necessity I would say. It balances all 3 channels for whatever volume your master is at.

Other (but unimportant mods) that you can get on the blue stripe is a pentode/triode switch. I thought about it, to get closer to the "grail tone", but then I thought it's just going to be more circuitry in an already barebones amp (mine is pretty hotrodded already, no reverb or V5 to get in the way of the gaaaain!).

Also, once you get the amp, and get familiar with it, you can chose some select resistor mods from the III+ mod, like the C30 mod.

Here's this thread:
http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=27879

I can't remember where the other one is...maybe someone else can, it's a long one.

 

[Facelift]

I also want to clarify why I asked about the mod because I've received some rather standoffish pms regarding how a mark III will never sound like a 2C+.

These type of pms and comments come from what i like to call the "corksniffers". They think their amp is the almighty because its a IIC+ even though people have different tastes and know that both amps so similarly voiced. They will do or say anything to make you believe that their amp is superior to all other amps. If you listen to ANY metal clip, you will hear that th III CAN do it just as well if not better than the IIC+. If youre talking lower gain jazz/blues type stuff, the IIC+ might be able to do it better, slightly. Now, if youre looking for a metal amp and your choice is a IIC+ or a III, dude, get the III and save youself a few grand and buy some good tubes, cables, cabs, and a guitar or two with what you saved. There are mods available to enhance what you are talking about without changing the amp. Like I said though, just play wioth the knobs as well as try different tubes as you will find that the III can offer you more tones than you are able to do with.

There has been many a debate over these 2 amps and those that send there rediculous comments to you in pm over it know they are gonna get slammed, again, for thier snobbish remarks downing on a III if they do it openly on the forum.

 

[EOengineer]

I also want to clarify why I asked about the mod because I've received some rather standoffish pms regarding how a mark III will never sound like a 2C+.

These type of pms and comments come from what i like to call the "corksniffers". They think their amp is the almighty because its a IIC+ even though people have different tastes and know that both amps so similarly voiced. They will do or say anything to make you believe that their amp is superior to all other amps. If you listen to ANY metal clip, you will hear that th III CAN do it just as well if not better than the IIC+. If youre talking lower gain jazz/blues type stuff, the IIC+ might be able to do it better, slightly. Now, if youre looking for a metal amp and your choice is a IIC+ or a III, dude, get the III and save youself a few grand and buy some good tubes, cables, cabs, and a guitar or two with what you saved. There are mods available to enhance what you are talking about without changing the amp. Like I said though, just play wioth the knobs as well as try different tubes as you will find that the III can offer you more tones than you are able to do with.

There has been many a debate over these 2 amps and those that send there rediculous comments to you in pm over it know they are gonna get slammed, again, for thier snobbish remarks downing on a III if they do it openly on the forum.

I'm going to halt this right here and now. I appreciate you filling me in, but this is t going to be another Mark II vs Mark III knock down drag out. It's been settled, we can let it go, and enjoy our amps.

Truth be told, I'm not really a metal player. I cut my teeth on master of puppets and justice for many years, but as a 30 year old, my tastes are becoming more broad, and I'm experimenting with jazz, some blues, and other types of styles that may require a more rounded Santana type violin tone.

I will receive my amp Thursday, and will know within a few hours whether or not it will provide some flexibility. If it does what I need, great. I'm pleased. If it doesn't, then I will put it up in the classifieds, and either grab a Mark IIB, or a studio pre and simul 290. I'm not really rooting for one amp or another, I just want the boogie crunch, and vocal sustain that is somewhere in the ballpark of what I had with my older studio pre.

 

[igfraso]

Well... being called a cork sniffer just for suggesting the R2Vol (which is a $50 mod) seems to be a little bit too much.
Even Mike says you don't need to send it to Mesa because it is such a basic mod that any tech can do it.
It is a necessary mod if you want to have 3 independent channels in terms of volume.

Regards
Daniel Corksniffer :lol:

 

[EOengineer]

Well... being called a cork sniffer just for suggesting the R2Vol (which is a $50 mod) seems to be a little bit too much.
Even Mike says you don't need to send it to Mesa because it is such a basic mod that any tech can do it.
It is a necessary mod if you want to have 3 independent channels in terms of volume.

Regards
Daniel Corksniffer :lol:

I don't think he was referring to you. Sounds like there is some baby mamma drama 'round these parts :lol:

 

[JOEY B.]

There has been many a debate over these 2 amps and those that send there rediculous comments to you in pm over it know they are gonna get slammed, again, for thier snobbish remarks downing on a III if they do it openly on the forum.

There is no debate, except for people who have not owned them both at the same time. I'm no snob, but I am a straight shooter. I will speak the truth, openly on this forum, if I feel the need. I have never "downed" a Mark III, but have encouraged people to let it be good at what it does, and not try to turn it into something it isn't.

Now, to get to the point.

III+ mod = too much money invested in a Mark III - which in stock form is a GREAT value in the world of tube amps.

R2 mod , C30 mod, RFT ECC83 in V3, maybe a JAN GE 5751 in V5, Sylvania or SED =C= power tubes.

Then there is plenty of money leftover for a lifetime supply of corks. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

 

[igfraso]

Yes, Joey B. The III+ mod seems to be too much money invested in a Mark III since it maybe gives you the sound of a IIC+ but not the same feel (coming from the horse's mouth).
The R2Vol mod for me is a necessity, though.

Daniel

 

[EOengineer]

There has been many a debate over these 2 amps and those that send there rediculous comments to you in pm over it know they are gonna get slammed, again, for thier snobbish remarks downing on a III if they do it openly on the forum.

There is no debate, except for people who have not owned them both at the same time. I'm no snob, but I am a straight shooter. I will speak the truth, openly on this forum, if I feel the need. I have never "downed" a Mark III, but have encouraged people to let it be good at what it does, and not try to turn it into something it isn't.

Now, to get to the point.

III+ mod = too much money invested in a Mark III - which in stock form is a GREAT value in the world of tube amps.

R2 mod , C30 mod, RFT ECC83 in V3, maybe a JAN GE 5751 in V5, Sylvania or SED =C= power tubes.

Then there is plenty of money leftover for a lifetime supply of corks. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Helpful input on the tubes. I'm going to have to look into this. I've got an old Jan 5751 nos floating around, as well as an old mullard 4024cv I think. Maybe these guys will be solid candidates for this amp.

 

[EOengineer]

Nep and Joey, would you be so kind as to recommend a good tube source? Tubestore looks decent, nut doesn't carry rft and some others.

I'm also noticing many of these tubes are coming out of 1 factory in russia. Very interesting.