Cabinet Options

[sheehanje]

My Mark V is killer... But too killer it seems. I've been running 45 watt Mark IV mode on channel 3 and with the output master at about 3.5 and the channel master at around 5 I am louder than anyone else in the band usually. The bass player has been turning up to match me and is starting to distort out.

This is a great problem to have... sort of. We played an outdoor gig with a substandard PA and nobody could hear the drums or vocals...

So I've been thinking about going smaller for certain gigs that don't have a PA to keep up and for practice where my singer is using a smaller PA.

Right now I run my Mesa V head through a 4X12 Rectifier cab. Like I said, it sounds killer - but in 45 watt or 90 watt mode. 10watt mode it seems to not sound as great - like it's not being pushed enough. Not sure if this is the amp or the cabinet though.

What are peoples thoughts just running the Mark V through just a 1x12 Widebody Closed back? I see a lot of people using the combo with it, but not so much of the head through a single 1X12. Would this be a good setup for practice and smaller gigs/gigs without a house pa?

We play punk music on the verge of metal. We also throw old hard rock/metal into the mix. Think a mix of the Ramones, Black Sabbath and Metallica and throw in the occasional Skynrd tune and that's why I need a versatile amp like the Mark V. Can a single Mesa/Boogie 1x12 Widebody Closed Back Cabinet also be versatile enough to throw all that at it? If not, would it be worth trading my 4X12 for 2 of these?

 

[jb's 52]

It'll sound boxy coming from a 4x12. You'll have better luck with a 2x12 I think.

 

[BrownieD2W]

The 10 watt setting should allow you to get as quiet as you need to without sacrificing to much tone. Try running the channel masters a little lower, in the 9 o'clock to 11 o'clock range, and then run the output as high as you can get away with without being rude to the rest of your bandmates.

For miced PA gigs, even crappy ones, I have grown to love the 10 watt setting. Once its been miced it sounds like a much bigger amp. As an opening band, most times I get a good amount of tweaking time before we go on, and the first time I was able to get the sound I wanted from the 10 watt setting through a descent PA I almost couldn't believe it was me it ended up sounding so good. The other guitarist I play with was also much happier, he takes lead duties through a 60 watt Fender head but somehow the Mark V on 10 watts with a 2x12 can keep up just fine.

 

[screamingdaisy]

The Recto 4x12 is wired with a left and right split, so if neccissarily you can only use 2 of the 4 speakers.

Alternatively, you could turn down your amp.

Lastly, keep in mind that unless your cab is aimed at your head it will sound alot louder out in the audience than it does to you on stage.

 

[OldTelecasterMan]

As Mark II said Turn down the channel volume and run up the main output.

The amp works differently than what one would think. Turning down the main output strangles the amp, IMO gives it the boxy sound and kills tone. Work it backwards.

I have been holding back on writing this because I was not looking to get stomped on but here goes.

I have been cranking the main output to about 2/3 or more and then cracking the channel volumes to my desired level. The more the main output is open the better the tone. The volume on the guitar works much better this way for adjusting from clean-sparkly to crunchy drive and all the way to singing leads on either channel 2 or 3. Channel 2 is just awesome in the Crunch setting even for leads. Channel 3 kicks some major butt in the Extreme setting. Channel 1 in tweed and bold for me is the sound. Adjusting the differences in volumes between channels is a little more difficult but for me it has been worth the hassle.

For lower volume you can turn down the main output but I just have the channel volumes cracked on, barely on. I use the Main output for amp volume. I use channel volume just to get the differences in volume between channels set. If one channel seems too low I first try to back the other channels off.

Also..I have opened the main output all the way up (and I mean all the way) with the channel volumes just cracked. It's a little loud, too loud for any gigs I do but OMG freaking awesome. I contacted Boogie and the only warning was you should not have the individual channel masters past 2 oclock when opening up the output all the way because it could overdrive the loop circuit. And yes...the 90watt IMO sounds the best.

As for cabinets I am running two 2X12 vertical Mesa cabs into the two 4ohm speaker outs.

Here is a pic. Cell phone so it isn't very clear but you can see the output is quite a bit up. Also look at the amp EQ and channel bass, mid and treble.

 

[sheehanje]

Thanks for the replies. I got to play around a little tonight at another drummers house. Unfortunately I can't really play in my apartment - so I have to lug my gear over to anyone willing to pity me.

I tried the amp both ways - channels down, main output up and channels up, main output lower .... both ways had their moments.

Right now Channel 3 I can't seem to get the tone right on - either in Mark IV or Extreme. Trying to get a classic Metallica sound there (Master of Puppets)....

Channel 2 I got screaming tonight on Mark I mode.. Was really cool. Had a very Rush feel to it where I could roll back the volume on my neck pickup, then roll in volume on my bridge pickup for some really tight rhythms into really soaring leads. So that's definitely getting there and gave me some aha moments. It still needs work - and still probably too loud for normal practice with my band. I may just tell them to buy louder stuff - haha...

Channel 1 seems the easiest to dial in. pretty much anything you put it on is bullet proof. I'm not a huge fan of 10 watt mode. I know Class A is the cleanest, but 45watt mode seems more at home on Channel 1. At least with the limited time I had with it tonight.

Another thing - I've been running a Line 6 M13 using the 4 cable method. I'm definitely getting some coloring through the effects loop even with bypass mode on. Wonder why? I decided to just run the guitar in the front of the amp to tweak, then add the M13 in later...


Anyways - wish I had more time with the amp to really dial it in. I'm still considering getting a 1X12 or 2X12. I have to lug the 4X12 to and from rehearsal as well as shows. The later I don't mind, but if I can get away with something smaller for practice I may do it. Honestly though, I feel like I could play a stadium with the 4X12. Yikes... I'm seriously thinking of renting a rehearsal room for 3 or 4 hours to just play with my new amp.

Again, thanks for the replies... am trying any and all suggestions.

 

[OldTelecasterMan]

Well, I have been playing for 45 years... I'm a bit seasoned...yea..seasoned..that is a good description. I'm also a published writer with a movie sound track to my credit. My first live performance was at 12 years old my first gig was at 16 years old and I began to teach guitar at 16yrs old. I have liked so many artists that to try to get the nuance of just one never worked because I never had the money to buy what ever type of amp that they used. So I worked my hands to emulate the style and tone they had. Think for a minute, if Eddie Van Halen played through your rig would it sound like him or you? It's all in the hands. Find sounds/tones that you like, work for you, your guitar and play. You are your own worst critic. You will always hear things that nobody else does. Play for you.

I gig a lot. This Saturday I have a job from 12:00 noon to 4:00pm I then pack up and drive to a job 120 miles away and play from 9:00pm to 1:00am. People always come up and give complements. Guitarists come up and complement my tone, ask how I did this or that, what I'm running through and what effects I use. I use a compressor, two MXR Carbon Copy delays and an Original Wah Wah. Nothing more. You will always sound like you.

Find your sound and make that sing. Be you, and people will love it.

 

[sheehanje]

Thanks for the words of wisdom. I've been playing about 28 years now, but more as a serious hobby. I don't consider myself a pro by any means. I've played mostly through cheap solid state amps, and cheap to middle of the road guitars. I've been lucky enough to have a job lately that affords me more extravagant gear - much to my wife's dismay. Been playing in the same band for 25 years, much more off than on. But we got back together and kind of are doing things backwards - we were a mostly original band, then got together with a new bass player who turned us on to a new style of music but we are now doing mostly covers.

I definitely have my own style of playing - it's very evident. No matter what style I play, people can tell it's me playing it. But as far as sound, I've never sat long enough with it to create my own "tone". I've always turned up whatever amp I had and the knobs might be different for each show or jam session I do. The Mesa is the first amp I'm really trying to invest some time into creating something. I wanted this to be the last amp I ever buy. I'm in my 40's and arthritis is settling in pretty bad in my hands, so who knows how much longer I will be able to play. Keith Richards does it with some pain, so I'm sure I can keep up for for quite a few years....

Tomorrow I get some more time to play with the Mesa. Looking forward to it. I have a Blackstar HT 50 head, and it's so easy to dial in sounds on it. But on the other hand, the Blackstar just seems to be missing something - or sounds canned. I just was never satisfied with it in some ways even though other people say it sounds great. The Mesa just seems much more sensitive to any adjustment on it - and it's a good thing because it means it has a lot of room to create something that I can call my own.

Funny thing with the M13 is I only use noise gate, delay and chorus on it... I have a separate wah pedal. But I purchased a mini amp gizmo so I can double the M13 as a footswitch for the amp. So if I want channel 3 with a little delay and nothing else - it's one button and the amp changes channels with the effects. If I want clean with chorus, one button changes everything... It seems like a great setup - but I have to get it sounding right. In any case, it's just finding the time to sit down and tweak. Just figured I'd get some ideas here - especially on the cabinet situation and loudness. I think it'll be alright.

Well, I have been playing for 45 years... I'm a bit seasoned...yea..seasoned..that is a good description. I'm also a published writer with a movie sound track to my credit. My first live performance was at 12 years old my first gig was at 16 years old and I began to teach guitar at 16yrs old. I have liked so many artists that to try to get the nuance of just one never worked because I never had the money to buy what ever type of amp that they used. So I worked my hands to emulate the style and tone they had. Think for a minute, if Eddie Van Halen played through your rig would it sound like him or you? It's all in the hands. Find sounds/tones that you like, work for you, your guitar and play. You are your own worst critic. You will always hear things that nobody else does. Play for you.

I gig a lot. This Saturday I have a job from 12:00 noon to 4:00pm I then pack up and drive to a job 120 miles away and play from 9:00pm to 1:00am. People always come up and give complements. Guitarists come up and complement my tone, ask how I did this or that, what I'm running through and what effects I use. I use a compressor, two MXR Carbon Copy delays and an Original Wah Wah. Nothing more. You will always sound like you.

Find your sound and make that sing. Be you, and people will love it.

 

[OldTelecasterMan]

Very nice read on your background. My opinion, your "sound" comes from your hands not your amp. You must have your own sound, you said "people can tell it's me playing it". I think you have more going on than you know.

I'm in my 50s now. When I started playing in bands it was all covers, all solid state and digital. I bought a keyboard in the early 80s and started playing keys along with guitar. I got a Roland sequencer, drum machine, another keyboard and started writing music. Got into a situation that we played our originals mixed in with the covers there were about 13 originals. Then I recorded one of my originals, got signed with a promo company, got a movie deal, opened up for Spyra Gyra. I was doing the full time single parent thing so I had to make choices so I took a few years off from music. Now I'm back in a cover band and making pretty good money at it. But at 50 the late hours... geeze I'm wiped out the next day. I just got off a same day back to back jobs 12:30 to 4:30 then a 2 hour drive and we had a 9pm to 1am. The 9pm to 1am job came with hotel rooms so that made it much easier.

The amp settings in the picture were the ones I used at the jobs. I only tweaked the main output to set levels with the band. Also the 9pm to 1am job was a small bar so I was turned way down, one click away from off..LOL Those settings are for a custom 3 pickup Telecaster.

 

[sheehanje]

I figure when I'm 55 I can do music much more - but we'll see what I got left in me. My buddy Steve is 68 and still going real strong with playing.

I went to the music store I usually buy my big equipment with. They didn't have a 2X12 - and the 1X12 Closed Back Widebody was sold. They had a 1X12 Widebody open back.. They let me take it home to test it out - and wow. I really think something must be wrong with my 4X12 cause I got this dialed up in minutes and it sounds great. Took the channel masters down like you suggested and brought up the output and all I can say is WOW. For a while I've been wondering if I made a mistake buying the Mark V, cause I really couldn't get it to sound better than my Blackstar. Now I'm convinced I made the right choice. Dabbled with Channel 2 and 1 a bit, and again, much better results.

Basically with this 1X12 Widebody open, it becomes the combo amp. I called them and bought it outright. I just ordered a 1X12 Widebody closed back to pair it with. I've heard a lot of people pair the Mark V Combo with the 1X12 closed body with great success. I should have it Thursday, and have rehearsal on Sunday. Can't wait to test it out with the band.


Again, I am totally amazed at how much better it sounds. I'm really thinking there may be an issue with my 4X12. It's night and day.

 

[screamingdaisy]

Again, I am totally amazed at how much better it sounds. I'm really thinking there may be an issue with my 4X12. It's night and day.

The Vintage 30s in the 4x12 are all midrange with a rolled off top and bottom end.

The MC-90 in the 1x12 has a mote brilliant top and deeper bottom with a more relaxed midrange.

So 'night and day' is a reasonably apt description.

I personally prefer the 4x12 for high gain modern rock and metal and the 1x12s for more classic sounding overdrive and lead.

 

[OldTelecasterMan]

I did exactly the same thing as you. I wondered if after throwing down the bucks for the Mark V head and two 2x12 cabs if I had made a mistake. I actually took the head back to the store so the guys could either show me how to drive it or I was going to get a different head. As usual the Hollywood guys schooled me, explained to me what they do and how they go about getting their sound. They got me headed down the road to tone. Although it was my experimentation that got me to the "work it backwards" idea. Someone in here said try everything and adjust with your ears not your eyes. I am glad you had success with opening it up. It worked so well for me I was kind of wondering if anyone else had tried it. The settings really worked well on my gigs last weekend.

I work in a three piece band and when we play smaller venues I use a Boogie F-30 combo, I use the effects loop to a stereo chorus and return one side to the boogie and the other to a Fender Deluxe. Very big sound and the Deluxe works very well for the application. I have been working out how to stereo the Mark V but have a wet/dry output so all the tone isn't destroyed by the chorus. The setup works well but it aint no Mark V.

So I am on a new adventure with cabinets. I am checking into replacing all the speakers in my 2x12 cabs with 8ohm speakers. I want to wire them so I can split the cabinets top from bottom and run the two top to speakers dry from the amp. Then run from the Mark V slave output to my effects, through a stereo chorus then through a stereo power amp and send that to the bottom speakers right and left. So it is either replace the 16ohm speakers currently in the 2x12 cabs with 8ohm speakers or find a stereo power amp that will push 16ohm speakers because the bottom stereo section will be single speakers. The top section would be in parallel and drop the impedance to 8ohm so that works. I am trying to find a stereo power amp that will do 16ohm as it would be cheaper to just buy a power amp but I'm having no luck.

 

[OldTelecasterMan]

Incorporating a stereo chorus without loosing tone and not increasing my footprint on stage.

I contacted Boogie about a 16ohm power amp and the possibility of using the Stereo Simul-Class 2:Ninety to power the 16ohm speakers. The 16ohm is a "Safe Mismatch" for the Stereo Simul-Class 2:Ninety. So I am poking around to either buy one from eBay or kick down the cash for a new one. I can add a jack to the cabinet and wire the cabinet to accommodate the splitting of the cabinet one speaker to each jack with the third jack wired parallel to one of the existing jacks. When I want to have speakers normal (non-stereo). I will run the cabinet normal by looping two of the inputs (parallel) back into the cab and then using the third to connect to the amp. To run stereo the lower speakers will each run 16ohm directly to the stereo power amp and the upper speakers chained parallel to the Mark V amp for an 8ohm load. I'll use the slave output to the chorus then into the Stereo Simul-Class 2:Ninety A/B input and then to the lower speakers A/B (right-left).

Basically at this point it's a what way would be most cost effective.

Any thoughts?

 

[screamingdaisy]

Your plan looks fine to me.

I experimented a bit with stereo chorus when I was younger, and while it was cool when I could stand in the centre of the stereo field the effect was diminished as I moved to one side or the other. Despite having a stereo rig I predominantly used mono chorus because it was more in your face and stood out better.

 

[OldTelecasterMan]

Yes you are correct about the chorus stereo effect diminishing as you get farther away but on the dance floor in front of the band it works very well. For myself if I am not using a stereo rig I don't even use chorus, I only use the "MOD" button on the MXR Carbon Copy.

 

[screamingdaisy]

Won't running wet/dry/wet further diminish the effect? I'd think running stereo (wet/wet) would keep it a little more forward?

 

[OldTelecasterMan]

On each side of the stage I will have the top speakers dry the bottom speakers will be stereo. Splitting the 2x12 vertical cabinets. I will be able to blend the amount of effect as it will be a seperate amp running the lower stereo speakers. Trying to get tone and amp interaction out of a signal that is all jacked with chorus is like trying to pick up a turd from the clean end. I like chorus but I want it contained, to be part of the sound not be my sound. I could with a lot more ease add a cabinet on each side of the stage but space on stage is always a premium or nonexistent. When I use the Mark V I split my 2x12 cabinets as it is so the bass player can hear me so I think it will work out.

Many years ago I ran two amps. One amp was dry lined out through chorus and delay to another amp. It worked very well but it was a 5 piece band with bass, drums, keys, guitar and lead vocals so I kept both amps, my sound, on my side of the stage. With keys and guitar the sound was big. This is a three piece so the bigger my sound, not louder, the better.

 

[screamingdaisy]

One of the perks of a power trio. 8)

I mention all this because I don't think most think about the practical reality or logistics of W/D/W (I know I didn't), but it's pretty clear you've thought this out.

If you're not in a rush it might be worth waiting for a used 20:20 or 2:50 to pop up for sale. I was told that a lower powered amp will carry well because you don't need/want the wet channels as loud as the dry (this guy was running a 4x12 centre with a 1x12 left and right). I had a 2:100 so no idea how this holds up. Once I started gigging I ditched the effects and ran both channels dry.

 

[OldTelecasterMan]

Ah... playing dry is my favorite...well I do like some delay as that doesn't seem to make shapeless mush out of the tone. I am going to check on some other power amps this week just because of the sheer weight of a tube power amp. Really I'm already swirling the tone in the toilet bowl of stereo chorus so how much worse could a solid state power amp do even if only because they weigh in generally about 8 lbs. I have yet to find one that advertises 16 ohm capability.

I used to depend on Guitar Center for all the mixers, power amps, mics, guitars and things but since they have gone they way of "Pick and Save Music" for the mainly first time guitarists ie. "What kind of guitar are you looking for? A blue one." The bygone era of Guitar Center with real working musicians as sales people that not only knew what you were looking for but they knew more about every item in the store than the manufacturer the made it. They used to have everything, they had at least two on the floor and more in the back still in boxes. Now I even have to order my strings online because they don't have them in the store, ever. So I buy a box from whatever online store has the best price and free shipping. Sad times.

oohh a rant...LOL...

 

[screamingdaisy]

I've been considering a Rectoverb 25 combo as a slave for my Roadster in a wet/dry setup. Basically use it as a powered speaker and feed delay and rotary through it.

I've also considered getting a Roadster 2x12 combo and running stereo.

Then reality kicks in....