Bugera Mark Clone amp!! Holy Likely Lawsuit Batman!!!!

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94Tremoverb said:
Yes, I was talking about Suhr's Fender copies - the ones that are indistinguishable from a Fender at a quick glance apart from the head shape and the square fingerboard end... which is ugly too, but that doesn't really make it different when the rest of the body and hardware is exactly the same. John Suhr can make beautiful modern guitars that are *not* copies, but are "Fender-inspired" or "evolved-Fender" guitars, why does he have to stoop to copying as well? He says, because the market demands it. Well, the market demands all sorts of things that are neither legal nor moral, but it doesn't make it right to supply them.

Mesa should definitely sue, even if it *is* Peavey that will probably take the hit. Personally I would still buy any Peavey over a Behringer with a stupid name anyway, but I know a lot of people won't know or care why there is a difference.

Well then, I guess that's not too good then. But again, I'm sure a whole bunch of people just did straight copies purely because Fender for many years did not take action against them. If you want to stop people from copying ****, you should do something about it IMO. Sorry for misunderstanding when you call Suhr out. All I could think of when you said that was his original pieces that are Fender inspired...
 
Now just a minute here. I certainly oppose anybody violating any of Mesa's Patents and copyrights, and would not buy a product that violated them.

However, I recently searched for a lower weight second amp for jams and small gigs, because my Nomad breaks my back! I tried out a bunch, and the Bugera V22 sounded the best to me of all small amps I could find to try. I bought it, and so far, so good. For the $300 I paid new, I can afford some "fixes" if I need them. The V22 does not look or work like any Mesa I know of, so I can't see a patent or copyright problem, and it sounds great to me. In fact, it has some features and sounds I like better than my Nomad (donning flame proof suit). The V22 reverb and blues tones are better.

Also, it is my understanding that the Bulgera Magician won't be available until this summer, so I don't know how anybody can say "it sounds like crap". For all I know, it may -- but we can't know that about an amp nobody has played.
 
The V copy may be available overseas. I am thinking that is where the info/opinions come from. Anyway, there will be proponents and detractors. I am thinking the V22 is not a Boogie copy. Some other "lucky" amp manufacturer was the target of patent theft on that one. Just because NAMBLA has a bunch of members, does not mean it's right....
 
No sir, the V22 is definitely not a Mesa clone. It's got a bunch of features even Mesa doesn't have. It belongs in that "low watt tube amp" category that is so popular these days I'll not go into details about the features, as you can read about them on the link in the OP. I would not have purchased a "Mesa clone" as I don't believe in supporting those who infringe patents and copyrights, and I already have a Mesa -- so why buy a clone of it? In fact, the V22 is not a clone of anything I can find, but rather it incorporates some good original engineering. I have not had the V22 long enough to talk about reliability, but I get tones out of it that are good that I can't even get out of my Mesa, and I love the way it sounds and works. I also love its low weight for taking to jams and small gigs.

And I have neither examined nor played a Magician, as nobody has them and I am told that stores (at least in the USA) won't have them till summer. I hope it isn't in violation of Mesa's rights. And if it is, I hope Mesa sues them. But if (like the V22) it is a product of original engineering, I say bully for Bulgera, because I like nothing better than research, development, and competition.
 
Actually, correct me if I'm wrong, but I have yet to see a Bugera model that isn't a blatant copy of an existing amp... :lol:
 
Well, look at the V22, which can be found in the link in the OP. Tell me what it is a copy of. It is basically generic. Two channels with a volume knob to balance them. It adds a midrange boost switch and a pentode/triode switch.
 
Dolebludger said:
Well, look at the V22, which can be found in the link in the OP. Tell me what it is a copy of. It is basically generic. Two channels with a volume knob to balance them. It adds a midrange boost switch and a pentode/triode switch.

They are suppose to be Matchless clones, but if it works for you, it's all good...
 
Well, I went to several Matchless links via Google, and can sleep better tonight. From comparing the data on the V22 with that on the smaller Matchless amps, I find very little in common. Certainly so little that there is no way the law would rule that the V22 is a "Matchless clone" from an electronics standpoint. Perhaps the greatest among many distinguishing factors is that the Matchless' tone controls are interdependent (something I don't favor) while the V22's are independent (and massively effective, BTW).

If you use your imagination, you might think the amps looked similar. But all combo amps are "boxes" and you can't patent a box! And with that big chrome "Bugera" nameplate on the front of the V22, no idiot would think he was getting a Matchless. And in patent infringement cases involving electronic devices, the courts emphasize examination of similarity in electronics anyway, and not looks. And here, there just aren't any except generic ones.

Again, I can't speak about such problems with the Bugera Magician, as I have never seen one "in person" nor played on one.
 
Mesa Boggie (the original) was a sufficient modification on the Fender circuit not to be a patent infringement(if Fender even had a patent on their generic tube circuit). The basic tube amp circuit existed well before Fender was a company, and is probably not patentable at any stage in the game. So the mods that any company makes on the basic tube circuit are probably not a patent infringement of any sort, against anybody. Mesa (I know) does have some patented circuits now, and Fender probably does too now. For example, in 1998, Mesa patented their "solo boost" design that was used on the Nomad (and probably other amps thereafter). So if some other company were to actually COPY that circuit, it might well be a patent infringement (and I would not be in favor of that). But if some other company developed a different design of a solo boost, it would not be an infringement, and would just be free enterprise and competition (which I think is good).

But there is a lot of latitude in the generic tube amp circuit that is not patentable. It grew out of radios that existed 100 years ago. "Improvements" on generic, unpatentable designs are not patent infringements against anybody.

I used to own a Fender amp. I now own a Mesa and a Bulgera amp. I know enough about patent law to know that nothing about the Mesa violates any concept that Fender could have ever patented. These amps are too different. After reading up on Matchless amps, I can well see that my Bulgera V22 is WAY too different from anything that Matchless offers to be in violation of anything that Matchless could have under patent.

Patent law is a very difficult and technical subject, about which I know something but am not an expert. Merely building a tube amp does not violate any patent of Fender. Merely building a tube amp with high gain stages does not violate any patent of Mesa. And if Matchless had any patents on its amp design, the Bulgera V22 would violate none of them, because it is too basically different. Basic, generic tube amp design is in the "public domain" and unpatentable. Mere improvements or modifications on this design are unpatentable, and are not infringement on anybody's patent. A few additions to generic tube amp design have been deemed to be a sufficiently significantly departure from basic and generic tube amps to be patentable, such as Mesa's "solo boost" circuit. But even then, other amp makers have found a way to design significantly different ways to add solo boost so as to avoid infringement on Mesa's patent.

At this point, I am rather sure that my Bulgera V22 is not in violation of anybody's patent. And, again, I have not seen or played on a Magician amp so I don't know if it violates anybody's patent or not. I hope not, because I hate patent infringement, but love competition and innovative design therein.
 
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