Boogie what's next?

[YellowJacket]

I think the Ed and Royal sound good, but they have not caught on and you can't give them away on the used market. The only Mesa amps in demand are Mark series and Recto's.

Pretty much.

I hope Mesa comes out with a great amp. Right now, I just bought a Rhodes Gemini, and it covers a Mark and Recto pretty well, with higher gain. It is what I kept hoping Mesa would come out with.

How does one need more gain than a Recto or a Mark V? The Mark V really has more gain than is even usable.
I don't know if Mesa has 'lost their identity'. They're just trying to diversify their catalogue to expand their userbase and hopefully find something new that resonates with the masses. From a business sense, this is perfectly logical, even if us consumers don't always 'get it'. As a company they are interested in moving forward and not getting stuck in the past, which is why they have not re-released any amplifiers with the exception of the Mark I.

Much? I think all of them have flopped except the Mark V, only because Petrucci talks it up and his Dream Theater fans buy it. I owned one for 1 month when it first came out. Played with a band and I got destroyed in the band mix with it, sold it soon after. If you're the only guitar player in a band with a Mark V you will be ok but play with another guy with a JCM800 and you will not be heard in the mix. I've dabbled with Cameron and Fortin modded Marshalls and they slaughtered the Mark V for high gain. You go back and plug into a IIC+ or a Mark III Coliseum and you wonder, " Mesa, what the hell happened" ?

Hmmm. First of all, I do agree that Mesas are dark. They also have a propensity for being tubby in the low end and getting quite muddy if they aren't EQ's correctly.
Consider this though: My friend had a Dual Recto through a 2 x 12 and he was slaughtering two guys with ENGLs. A fireball and a powerball, both through 4 x 12s. He has also been able to dial in an equally cutting tone on his new Mark V. In the case of my Electra Dyne, it was simply a case of altering the EQ settings to be heard. The amp has a lot of mids already and turning the treble up really put the tone in the 'marshall' territory of brightness. When it comes to tones and being heard, maybe a big problem is that guitarists think of music as one big competition. Rather than competing for the same frequency band, it makes more sense to dial in tones that compliment one another and don't totally obliterate the singer(s) in the process.

As far as the 'lost in the mix' thing goes, I would submit that poor 'orchestration' / arranging might be to blame. It really makes the most sense acoustically for each instrument to have their own part each in a separate 'register'. This allows all the parts to sound in their own space which will sound clearer and ultimately better live.

Oh well, off topic again!! :lol:

As much as I like playing devil's advocate, I do admit that Mesa has been on the decline lately, at least from a sales standpoint. (I beg to differ about the quality of their current amp lineup but this is all opinion) They got pulled from GC in the US and the L&MQs up here in Canada are stocking less and less of their gear. I think their 4 x 12s move ok but apparently, according to music store staff. their amps are simply not selling these days. I guess what they are offering just isn't 'in season' anymore. Times change, styles change, and consumer's needs change. It is tough staying current, especially if a company is only known for one or two things.

 

[Heritage Softail]

I think the Ed and Royal sound good, but they have not caught on and you can't give them away on the used market. The only Mesa amps in demand are Mark series and Recto's.

Pretty much.

I hope Mesa comes out with a great amp. Right now, I just bought a Rhodes Gemini, and it covers a Mark and Recto pretty well, with higher gain. It is what I kept hoping Mesa would come out with.

How does one need more gain than a Recto or a Mark V? The Mark V really has more gain than is even usable.
I don't know if Mesa has 'lost their identity'. They're just trying to diversify their catalogue to expand their userbase and hopefully find something new that resonates with the masses. From a business sense, this is perfectly logical, even if us consumers don't always 'get it'. As a company they are interested in moving forward and not getting stuck in the past, which is why they have not re-released any amplifiers with the exception of the Mark I.

Much? I think all of them have flopped except the Mark V, only because Petrucci talks it up and his Dream Theater fans buy it. I owned one for 1 month when it first came out. Played with a band and I got destroyed in the band mix with it, sold it soon after. If you're the only guitar player in a band with a Mark V you will be ok but play with another guy with a JCM800 and you will not be heard in the mix. I've dabbled with Cameron and Fortin modded Marshalls and they slaughtered the Mark V for high gain. You go back and plug into a IIC+ or a Mark III Coliseum and you wonder, " Mesa, what the hell happened" ?

Hmmm. First of all, I do agree that Mesas are dark. They also have a propensity for being tubby in the low end and getting quite muddy if they aren't EQ's correctly.
Consider this though: My friend had a Dual Recto through a 2 x 12 and he was slaughtering two guys with ENGLs. A fireball and a powerball, both through 4 x 12s. He has also been able to dial in an equally cutting tone on his new Mark V. In the case of my Electra Dyne, it was simply a case of altering the EQ settings to be heard. The amp has a lot of mids already and turning the treble up really put the tone in the 'marshall' territory of brightness. When it comes to tones and being heard, maybe a big problem is that guitarists think of music as one big competition. Rather than competing for the same frequency band, it makes more sense to dial in tones that compliment one another and don't totally obliterate the singer(s) in the process.

As far as the 'lost in the mix' thing goes, I would submit that poor 'orchestration' / arranging might be to blame. It really makes the most sense acoustically for each instrument to have their own part each in a separate 'register'. This allows all the parts to sound in their own space which will sound clearer and ultimately better live.

Oh well, off topic again!! :lol:

As much as I like playing devil's advocate, I do admit that Mesa has been on the decline lately, at least from a sales standpoint. (I beg to differ about the quality of their current amp lineup but this is all opinion) They got pulled from GC in the US and the L&MQs up here in Canada are stocking less and less of their gear. I think their 4 x 12s move ok but apparently, according to music store staff. their amps are simply not selling these days. I guess what they are offering just isn't 'in season' anymore. Times change, styles change, and consumer's needs change. It is tough staying current, especially if a company is only known for one or two things.

Not to be argumentative here, but the most recent MKV is a collection of slices of old amps. It is not really new. If it sounds good as a replication of those tones is personal taste.

Mesa has fallen behind on the midi curve. The MKV should have had midi control for the many switches to change modes within a channel.

They have not kept up with extreme metal demands. Staying tight drop tuned is important these days.

They have lost huge distribution channels.

They have released successive amps that failed and left buyers with huge losses to face in the used market.

None of those are good individually, and seem bad collectively.

I hope Mesa does get caught up to consumer demands in tone and technology. I like my Mesa amps and wish the best to our friends in Petaluma.

 

[jdurso]

Not sure how its Mesa thats leaving buyers with huge losses on the used market. Most of it has to do with the economy and the emergance of quality middle of the road amps. There aren't as many people now that are willing or can shill out $1500-$2000+ for an amp... the ones that can are met with a market that still doesn't have the demand in the first place so you have to drop the price to the point where people will be willing to pay. For the ones that are able to shell out the $$$ for an expensive amp, there are a lot more choices today than there were even 5 years ago in terms of boutique companies.

The one area I agree with is with them not incorporating midi into the amp. Granted there are very good solutions by companies liek RJM but its always nice not to have to dish out another few hundred in order to get your amp to switch via midi.

Also the extreme metal demands, while they do exist how much demand is there really? The great thing about almost any Mesa amp is that it covers a lot of ground and covers it well. The Mark IV/V, Roadster, Road King and ED/RA can do almost anything from metal to the cleanest clean you can think of. Pair a few of them with a boost or OD and they really do cover it all. I'm just not sure extreme metal dropped tone is anything but a trend that will fade quickly. Mesa is far better catered to the rock/heavy rock tone spectrum which they've dominated in for some time now.

 

[Heritage Softail]

Not sure how its Mesa thats leaving buyers with huge losses on the used market. Most of it has to do with the economy and the emergance of quality middle of the road amps. There aren't as many people now that are willing or can shill out $1500-$2000+ for an amp... the ones that can are met with a market that still doesn't have the demand in the first place so you have to drop the price to the point where people will be willing to pay. For the ones that are able to shell out the $$$ for an expensive amp, there are a lot more choices today than there were even 5 years ago in terms of boutique companies.

The one area I agree with is with them not incorporating midi into the amp. Granted there are very good solutions by companies liek RJM but its always nice not to have to dish out another few hundred in order to get your amp to switch via midi.

Also the extreme metal demands, while they do exist how much demand is there really? The great thing about almost any Mesa amp is that it covers a lot of ground and covers it well. The Mark IV/V, Roadster, Road King and ED/RA can do almost anything from metal to the cleanest clean you can think of. Pair a few of them with a boost or OD and they really do cover it all. I'm just not sure extreme metal dropped tone is anything but a trend that will fade quickly. Mesa is far better catered to the rock/heavy rock tone spectrum which they've dominated in for some time now.

Remember when the Recto hit big... It was obnoxious. It was a can of bees.. It had terrible cleans... It was the amp old people said had no place. It was wrong in so many ways...

But it was the amp of angry youth. That diamond plate front panel meant f it all!! Mesa lost that market. I have mine and still love it.

I have no axe to grind with Mesa. I do think they need some fresh blood in their designs so they maintain and maybe grow. I enjoy the old Mesa amps I have. The iconic tones of rock and metal. Just don't see the latest crop of mesa amps being called iconic amps years from now.

No slagging. Just stating I think they have become complacent. Need to get mad and take the market back.

 

[jdurso]

Remember when the Recto hit big... It was obnoxious. It was a can of bees.. It had terrible cleans... It was the amp old people said had no place. It was wrong in so many ways...

But it was the amp of angry youth. That diamond plate front panel meant f it all!! Mesa lost that market. I have mine and still love it.

I have no axe to grind with Mesa. I do think they need some fresh blood in their designs so they maintain and maybe grow. I enjoy the old Mesa amps I have. The iconic tones of rock and metal. Just don't see the latest crop of mesa amps being called iconic amps years from now.

No slagging. Just stating I think they have become complacent. Need to get mad and take the market back.

Overall I agree that Mesa has lost a bit of the market and some of that has to do with the designs they've been pumping out but I don't think the next big thing is ever going to come from any of the big valve amp companies. The future will most likely be had by the Fractals, Kempers and anyone who can bring their felxibility and power to a traditional type amp head. I don't think any of them have nailed the tone they bring with the package Line 6 has been carting out for the last 10+ years. There have been some good attempts but no one has completely gotten it right either due to complexity of the UI/Hardware, getting true valve tone (Fractal and Kemper come so close that the difference is negligable) or price point.

I just look at the current big vavlve amp/amp companies and a lot of whats being pushed is either a throwback type sound (Victoria, Divided by 13, etc.), pushing the boundaries of flexibility (Rhodes, ENGL, etc.) or catering to a niche (PTP wiring, hotrodded vintage sound, etc.). No one is or really is going to develop a amp that sounds so different that it becomes the next big thing, at least with valve amps... it will all be something that sounds like a Marshall, Fender, Mesa, Bogner or VOX. So with that said, aside from the modelling crowd (which i think will own the future), the next big thing will come from those who make their amps versitile with the most current technology, without alienating the old school guys. Rhodes does a pretty good job of that but at $4000, the price point is very restrictive. Just to be clear I'm not saying it shouldn't be $4000 given its handmade using the highest quality parts... but to grab a huge share of the market the amp will have to be in the $1000-2000 range.

 

[screamingdaisy]

Remember when the Recto hit big... It was obnoxious. It was a can of bees.. It had terrible cleans... It was the amp old people said had no place. It was wrong in so many ways...

But it was the amp of angry youth. That diamond plate front panel meant f it all!! Mesa lost that market. I have mine and still love it.

I have no axe to grind with Mesa. I do think they need some fresh blood in their designs so they maintain and maybe grow. I enjoy the old Mesa amps I have. The iconic tones of rock and metal. Just don't see the latest crop of mesa amps being called iconic amps years from now.

No slagging. Just stating I think they have become complacent. Need to get mad and take the market back.

That said, the Recto was never intended to be the amp of angry youth. It was meant to be a hair metal amp and just happened to released right at the changing of the guard.

Personally, I think it says something that it's been over 20 years since the release of the Mark IV, Recto and 5150 and sonically nothing has advanced since then. Everything released since fits in the same basic sonic signature with a slight refinement to the feel or the voice, or it harkens back even further and is at it's foundation a modified Marshall, Vox, Fender, etc.

The last serious evolution in guitar sound was 7 strings and detuned 6 strings. Now there's dudes rocking 8 or more strings but the extended ranges are not really bringing anything new to the table. Dejent was the last new sound I can really think of and it was largely a boosted Recto with noise gate on it.

We've done tight and we've done loose. We've done high mids, low mids, mid-mids, no mids, detuned, extended range, fat fuzz, thin fuzz, scratchy fuzz, sputtering fuzz, really clean, sort of clean, kind of overdriven, really overdriven, distorted, really distorted, smooth distortion, grainy distortion and synths. We've tried pure tube, pure solid state, hybrids of the two, tube amps with solid state clipping circuits, tube amps with tube clipping circuits and full on modellers. Long story short, I don't know where manufacturers are going to go from here while still having the guitar sound vaguely guitar.

It doesn't really help that guitar based music isn't exactly burning up the airwaves in the last several years. Rock music doesn't appear to be the music of choice amongst disenfranchised youth... probably because forming a band involves closing your laptop and leaving your house. Instead, we get Dubstep... music that can be made by loners in their Mom's basement.

Long story short, the pendulum is swinging and it's not in our direction. I don't think it's reasonable to expect an amp manufacturer to swing it back the other way.

 

[elvis]

+1.

I think that says it all.

I would add that the commercial horsepower over the last few years has been "vintage tone". Reissues, copies, etc.

And modeling.

 

[screamingdaisy]

One area where guitar based music seems to still be fairly strong is pop-country, which is where amps like the Lone Star, Mark V and Electra Dyne have potential but also have significant competition, not to mention an uphill battle against their reputation as a manufacturer of high gain metal amps.

 

[ifailedshapes]

I know that Mesa is a small company, and I'm sure that long-time employees are treated like family. Just the same, it's a business, and it's a business that has lost its edge. Super high gain (Rectifier) and thin, hair metal (Mark) tones just aren't usable in most popular music. Yeah, those tones will always have their fan base, but if we are honest, that base is pretty small and is further declining.

My point is that Mesa needs some fresh blood in the design department. Randy and Doug did a great job, but it's time to let someone younger join their ranks.

I also think that their recent lineup of pedals was a mistake. They didn't bring anything new to the table; they just added the Mesa name and upped the price. Let the boutique pedal makers make boutique pedals, and get back to making quality amps.

I also wonder if Randy's and Doug's hearing is failing them after years and years of loud high-gain. Anybody who's used a Mesa amps knows that the EQ stacks are, quite honestly, terrible. I don't see why the Mesa EQ has to be so different. For example, I like my Ace, but the treble and presence are basically off. On my old Electra Dyne, the bass had to be run almost all the way off. Seriously, change the circuit so that Treble, Mid, and Bass all have useable sweeps, regardless of where the other is set.

K, rant over.

For now.

 

[Heritage Softail]

I know that Mesa is a small company, and I'm sure that long-time employees are treated like family. Just the same, it's a business, and it's a business that has lost its edge. Super high gain (Rectifier) and thin, hair metal (Mark) tones just aren't usable in most popular music. Yeah, those tones will always have their fan base, but if we are honest, that base is pretty small and is further declining.

My point is that Mesa needs some fresh blood in the design department. Randy and Doug did a great job, but it's time to let someone younger join their ranks.

I also think that their recent lineup of pedals was a mistake. They didn't bring anything new to the table; they just added the Mesa name and upped the price. Let the boutique pedal makers make boutique pedals, and get back to making quality amps.

I also wonder if Randy's and Doug's hearing is failing them after years and years of loud high-gain. Anybody who's used a Mesa amps knows that the EQ stacks are, quite honestly, terrible. I don't see why the Mesa EQ has to be so different. For example, I like my Ace, but the treble and presence are basically off. On my old Electra Dyne, the bass had to be run almost all the way off. Seriously, change the circuit so that Treble, Mid, and Bass all have useable sweeps, regardless of where the other is set.

K, rant over.

For now.

I agree with new blood. And telling a company to keep up with the times should be common business advice, not something to whisper as not to offend.

I really enjoy my Mesa amps, but I like old school stuff...

My most recent amp is a very current technology fully midi controlled channel changer that embodies most of the Mark series and some more than Recto thump.

I wanted the MKV to be that amp. No hard feelings but I hope Mesa gets there. I guess I am saying since Mesa will not update, then they may as well do old school in an excellent manner.

 

[KH Guitar Freak]

I know that Mesa is a small company, and I'm sure that long-time employees are treated like family. Just the same, it's a business, and it's a business that has lost its edge. Super high gain (Rectifier) and thin, hair metal (Mark) tones just aren't usable in most popular music. Yeah, those tones will always have their fan base, but if we are honest, that base is pretty small and is further declining.

My point is that Mesa needs some fresh blood in the design department. Randy and Doug did a great job, but it's time to let someone younger join their ranks.

I also think that their recent lineup of pedals was a mistake. They didn't bring anything new to the table; they just added the Mesa name and upped the price. Let the boutique pedal makers make boutique pedals, and get back to making quality amps.

I also wonder if Randy's and Doug's hearing is failing them after years and years of loud high-gain. Anybody who's used a Mesa amps knows that the EQ stacks are, quite honestly, terrible. I don't see why the Mesa EQ has to be so different. For example, I like my Ace, but the treble and presence are basically off. On my old Electra Dyne, the bass had to be run almost all the way off. Seriously, change the circuit so that Treble, Mid, and Bass all have useable sweeps, regardless of where the other is set.

K, rant over.

For now.

Never really felt the controls were too whacky once you've put it into a band mix...

 

[Heritage Softail]

I know that Mesa is a small company, and I'm sure that long-time employees are treated like family. Just the same, it's a business, and it's a business that has lost its edge. Super high gain (Rectifier) and thin, hair metal (Mark) tones just aren't usable in most popular music. Yeah, those tones will always have their fan base, but if we are honest, that base is pretty small and is further declining.

My point is that Mesa needs some fresh blood in the design department. Randy and Doug did a great job, but it's time to let someone younger join their ranks.

I also think that their recent lineup of pedals was a mistake. They didn't bring anything new to the table; they just added the Mesa name and upped the price. Let the boutique pedal makers make boutique pedals, and get back to making quality amps.

I also wonder if Randy's and Doug's hearing is failing them after years and years of loud high-gain. Anybody who's used a Mesa amps knows that the EQ stacks are, quite honestly, terrible. I don't see why the Mesa EQ has to be so different. For example, I like my Ace, but the treble and presence are basically off. On my old Electra Dyne, the bass had to be run almost all the way off. Seriously, change the circuit so that Treble, Mid, and Bass all have useable sweeps, regardless of where the other is set.

K, rant over.

For now.

Never really felt the controls were too whacky once you've put it into a band mix...

I was meaning to have all of the micro switches along with fat switches and bright switches assigned to midi. So you could change modes within a channel and add or remove bright or fat. To be able to set the EQ, hit a midi program save would have been amazing!

The controls worked great and shaped the tone well. If you could pull the EQ settings out as midi presets, that would be a leadership and innovative move.

I hope Mesa decides to go there with it. 3K is becoming a somewhat normal high end amp price. That is about what I have tied up in my new amp.

Even if there was a midi add on package... Anyway, not to belabor the issue. Companies choose their direction and go with it. Whatever Mesa does in the future, I have my old amps and think the the old Rectifier and MKIIC are iconic tones. Not many amp companies have two iconic amp tones!

Long Live Mesa. \m/

8)

 

[elvis]

I doubt you'll see MIDI implementations. In general they are very difficult to design well and not very popular. The Triaxis is as close as you will get from Mesa.

I think it's pretty clear that Mesa takes its cues from its artists. Very few artists are using lots of tones live. Frankly not many have had a long enough career to have used a lot of different amps, like Metallica. Most are fine having a couple amps on stage with some basic switching.

Also, the generic MIDI switchers out there are quite sophisticated.

Another issue with designing the modes for on-the-fly switching is that many of them rebias or significantly alter the circuit. When designed for "set and forget", it's OK if they pop or change the volume or both. Once you drop the "forget" assumption, then the circuits become more complicated to that they switch more smoothly. A real pain to design.

While I agree that $3k is not unusual for boutiques, I would bet that Mesa would sell one tenth (or fewer) the number of amps at $3k that they sell at $2k. Each buyer has a price point, and for the vast majority that point is less than $2k. That is a month's take-home pay for most people. More for a lot of working musicians. And the vast majority of players and purchasers are amateurs. I buy Mesa because I like them and they are made in the US and the people on the forum are really cool :wink: . But I could easily gig with Line 6 or Peavey or Crate and probably nobody would know the difference.

 

[Heritage Softail]

I doubt you'll see MIDI implementations. In general they are very difficult to design well and not very popular. The Triaxis is as close as you will get from Mesa.

I think it's pretty clear that Mesa takes its cues from its artists. Very few artists are using lots of tones live. Frankly not many have had a long enough career to have used a lot of different amps, like Metallica. Most are fine having a couple amps on stage with some basic switching.

Also, the generic MIDI switchers out there are quite sophisticated.

Another issue with designing the modes for on-the-fly switching is that many of them rebias or significantly alter the circuit. When designed for "set and forget", it's OK if they pop or change the volume or both. Once you drop the "forget" assumption, then the circuits become more complicated to that they switch more smoothly. A real pain to design.

While I agree that $3k is not unusual for boutiques, I would bet that Mesa would sell one tenth (or fewer) the number of amps at $3k that they sell at $2k. Each buyer has a price point, and for the vast majority that point is less than $2k. That is a month's take-home pay for most people. More for a lot of working musicians. And the vast majority of players and purchasers are amateurs. I buy Mesa because I like them and they are made in the US and the people on the forum are really cool :wink: . But I could easily gig with Line 6 or Peavey or Crate and probably nobody would know the difference.

Are you running stereo mini rectifiers?

I ask because whenever I run stereo, a rectifier is always one of them. Just a great riffing machine and way fun to play.

 

[elvis]

I'm running mono these days. I bought the second mini as a spare for gigs just in case. They are reasonably priced and small and light, so it seemed like the way to go.

When I ran stereo I used a variety of preamp/amp combos, all with a G System:

F50 with the power amp off into a 20/20
Studio pre into 20/20 and 50/50
Triaxis into 50/50 and 2:90

I tried 1x12 3/4 cabs and 1x12 rectos

In the end, it sounds great at home but is a pain for gigs and they never run stereo anyway. Much easier to run mono.

I do love my minis :twisted:

 

[midifail]

I´d love to see a stereo power amp with multi watt feature - a 250/25/5)...
:-D

 

[elvis]

Cool idea!

 

[siggy14]

If I was designing a new mesa amp i would call it "Work Horse" and here is the design.

4 channel amp 3 modes per channel with assignalbe EQ and controur knobs. 50 to 150 watt via 4x6L6's and 2x EL34's. 2 Assignable loops and reverb

1st channel
Tweed
Fat
Mark I

2nd Channel
Electrodyne Lo
Electrodyne Hi
Pushed mode from recto

3rd Channel
Mark 2C
Mark IV Lead
Recto Modern

4th Channel
Mark IV Lead
Recto Vintage
Recto Modern

 

[Heritage Softail]

I'm running mono these days. I bought the second mini as a spare for gigs just in case. They are reasonably priced and small and light, so it seemed like the way to go.

When I ran stereo I used a variety of preamp/amp combos, all with a G System:

F50 with the power amp off into a 20/20
Studio pre into 20/20 and 50/50
Triaxis into 50/50 and 2:90

I tried 1x12 3/4 cabs and 1x12 rectos

In the end, it sounds great at home but is a pain for gigs and they never run stereo anyway. Much easier to run mono.

I do love my minis :twisted:

I just roll wet dry now in my old age.

:lol:

 

[ryjan]

How about having a new feature on every amp called "Practice Mode".
Flip the switch and it will put the power section on stand by and route your preamp into a built in solid state 15-20 watt power section voiced to match your amp.