Best way to get good tone at lower volumes with DR Solo...

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grunge782

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I've heard of some people pulling the 2 outer tubes, but is that safe for your amplifier?

I've also heard some people just use a volume pedal in the loop.

I'm not looking for my DR solo head to be best at lower volumes, I just want the tubes cooking enough for it to sound decent.

Any suggestions?
 
Check out these if you have some cash http://www.thdelectronics.com/product_page_hotplate.html

Theyre called attenuators, basically you can turn your amp up to stage/band levels and you plug one of these babies in between the head and cab and it converts the extra power into heat, you can control how much lower the volume is. Think of it just like another master volume control that doesnt effect the power running to the tubes. Ive never tried one but from what ive read the THD ones are the most reliable, theyre just quite expensive for the average user. I cant really justify it myself, i just figured out some settings that sounded alright at bedroom levels and im used to it not sounding 'as good' as when im in a band situation.
 
I've had a few Hotplates. They're good, but in all honesty I found the amp's master volume works just as well for low volume tones.

In my opinion, Recto's don't need to push the power tubes so much as they need to push the speakers.
 
^BINGO right there!

An attenuator IS NOT the right way to go about getting a better sound out of a rectifier....most of its tone comes from the preamp, and it relies on a big clean power amp. The attenuator will work to distort the power amp at more reasonable levels...you see the problem, I'm sure.

Use the Global output, and loop send knob on the back of the amp...both can bring the levels down very well. No need for any external volume pedals....it'll just do the same thing.

In all honesty though, as said before, the key to getting the goods out of a Recto is to have the speakers move some air....and unfortunately, volume is the only way.

Eric
 
I don't agree! I've got a Hotplate too (as well as a couple of other attenuators) and they work very well to give a better tone at lower volume levels. Not the same as it being cranked up loud - of course, since screamingdaisy is right about the speakers needing to move some air - but better than using the amp's volume controls alone.

However, what *not* to do is crank the amp full up into power-stage distortion and then use the attenuator to bring it down again - that's counterproductive in terms of tone as well as killing the tubes more quickly. What to do is to use each control to the minimum possible extent, and experiment with what happens if you turn one up slightly and the other down slightly until you get it sounding right. I found that like that, it's easily possible to get better sounds at *lower* volumes than with either the amp controls or the attenuator alone.
 
94Tremoverb said:
I don't agree! I've got a Hotplate too (as well as a couple of other attenuators) and they work very well to give a better tone at lower volume levels. Not the same as it being cranked up loud - of course, since screamingdaisy is right about the speakers needing to move some air - but better than using the amp's volume controls alone.

However, what *not* to do is crank the amp full up into power-stage distortion and then use the attenuator to bring it down again - that's counterproductive in terms of tone as well as killing the tubes more quickly. What to do is to use each control to the minimum possible extent, and experiment with what happens if you turn one up slightly and the other down slightly until you get it sounding right. I found that like that, it's easily possible to get better sounds at *lower* volumes than with either the amp controls or the attenuator alone.

Even though I don't use a Hotplate any more, I do agree with this.

I got my best results from running the Hotplate on -4dB or -8dB... enough to take the edge off a crazy loud amp and help bring it down to an acceptable stage volume. I never found it much good at bedroom levels... you're running the amp so cold at that point that attenuating -4/-8dB doesn't particularly help as the power tubes are still running clean anyway.

All in my opinion of course.... but I also like a lot of headroom in the power stage for maximum dynanics when doing heavy rhythm stuff. If I was after a more compressed lead tone or a lower gain crunch tone with more power tube compression I may hold a different opinion.
 
ibanez4life SZ! said:
^BINGO right there!

An attenuator IS NOT the right way to go about getting a better sound out of a rectifier....most of its tone comes from the preamp, and it relies on a big clean power amp. The attenuator will work to distort the power amp at more reasonable levels...you see the problem, I'm sure.

Use the Global output, and loop send knob on the back of the amp...both can bring the levels down very well. No need for any external volume pedals....it'll just do the same thing.

In all honesty though, as said before, the key to getting the goods out of a Recto is to have the speakers move some air....and unfortunately, volume is the only way.

Eric

Thanks those are some good suggestions. I've used an attenuator once and I wasn't a very big fan of it to be honest.

When using the loop send knob do you just set the loop to "loop on" and then adjust the send knob according?

And I agree they are optimal when moving some speakers, but pretty much all tube amps are. I'm just looking for something decent.
 
I think if you lower the gain a slight bit at lower volumes it can help take some of the "fizz" out of the rectos if thats any use to you. :D But as most people have said the rectos are mostly preamp gain so attenuators wont really do all that much at bedroom levels. I use mine with the channel masters about 10 o clock and the output volume at about 7 o clock and its a grand volume for bedrooms i think
 
ibanez4life SZ! said:
Use the Global output, and loop send knob on the back of the amp...both can bring the levels down very well. No need for any external volume pedals....it'll just do the same thing.
Eric
could you clarify a bit?
Global output turn down and master up? or vice versa? and with fx knob?? :oops:
 
Dave G. said:
I think if you lower the gain a slight bit at lower volumes it can help take some of the "fizz" out of the rectos if thats any use to you. :D But as most people have said the rectos are mostly preamp gain so attenuators wont really do all that much at bedroom levels. I use mine with the channel masters about 10 o clock and the output volume at about 7 o clock and its a grand volume for bedrooms i think


AGREED! This is almost exactly my levels as well. (with gain variances)
How much TONE do you really need at 'bedroom level'? Tone-chasers are funny ****!
 
CHATTERBOX said:
How much TONE do you really need at 'bedroom level'? Tone-chasers are funny sh!t!

Uhm-- tone is everything ( at least in my book). If I don't have good tone at ALL times, I'm not satisfied, I'm not inspired, I don't want to play--and I'll just be a frustrated *******. If I have an amp that provides me with great tone no matter the volume, pushed or not, I'll play until my little hearts content--which can be up to 10+hrs a day. That box is the crown jewel for inspiration--and if I can't have that on every level, I'm never gonna be satisfied...and I always want to be satisfied.

~Nep~
 
What is better?
Master volume turn up and global output turn down, or reverse?
 
Try it both ways - and both halfway, and every other combination - and see. It's a balancing act, and it's what *your* ears tell you that matters.

What Chatterbox means is that chasing ultimate tone at bedroom volume is chasing a phantom. It simply isn't possible to get that godlike tone that you get from a big tube amp turned up loud, at whisper volumes. Period. The best you can do is to get a flavour of it that is acceptable to you - but it will *never* be as good as you really want. You have to understand that it will be different, why it will be different and that the best you can do is hear the difference and compensate for it. Even to do this you might need to radically rethink what you use and how you use it - not just the amp, but the speakers, the EQ setting, attenuators, pedals, power scaling, smaller amps, etc etc. What you will not find is a big tube amp that you can set to your favorite 'loud' settings, then turn one knob down and have the same thing but quieter.

But I would still rather use a tube amp with all those compromises and extra stuff than use a modeler, which is the closest thing to an amp that sounds the same at any volume. The problem is that it sounds bad at any volume :). (In my opinion.)
 
I was just experimenting with this on my ROV. I like setting the masters first and then lowering the Output. The main reason is, this way I can keep both the clean and crunch channels balanced with each other, volume wise.
If I keep the output up and lower the crunch master, then I have to lower the clean master to balance it out.
Using the Output gives me one knob to turn if Im too loud. (also the solo knob, but thats easy)
 
I've been playing around with my rig and I have another $0.02 to add.
I think speakers / cabinetry is of utmost importance in getting a good low volume tone. My Mock212B* build project from the summer is curious because I built it for loud volume situations. What I discovered is that for whatever reason, the dimensions of the cab + the speaker combination (v30 + c90) just work pretty much perfectly with a recto. I was running Yellow Jackets today and I noticed with a bit of EQing a good tone can be had. It can get quiet enough that you can hear the guitar pick loud and clear but it isn't exactly 'quiet'. As you turn down the amp further, it just doesn't put out enough oomph to really move the speakers. To get rid of the over bright high end of the EL-84s, I ran my 2 channel recto on red to vintage and lowered the presence control on the red channel. Then I turned the orange channel presence up to add cut and sparkle to the extreme highs. I then dialed back the mids somewhat to make a 'bigger sound'. With the EL-84s you don't quite get the gut busting horsepower as you do with a 100watt head.

With this speaker combination, I'm beginning to think that the fizzies people complain about are at least 50% a low volume speaker artifact in the sound. i.e. related to v30s. My thiele 2 x 12 is supposed to be for low volumes but strangely enough, it can get really fizzy at low volumes while the Mock212B does not. It seems like it emphasizes the treble and presence frequencies more while the larger Mock212B has much more brilliance in the high harmonics at loud volumes. The only real 'fix' for getting more speaker movement at low volumes is to get a low wattage and less efficient speaker. Say a Greenback, for instance. A G12m Heritage and a G12H Heritage (WGS Green Beret and Reaper 55Hz) would most likely be a great pair for this. The lower wattage speakers sound 'looser' and 'more open' at low volumes which allows for the sound of the amp being more cranked. (the downsize is that you need a cab with more robust speakers for LOUD volumes and in my experience, it really makes little difference) In a perfect world, I'd build another Mock212B and load it with these speakers, just to see if it would work. Still, it sounds awesome so I don't want to ruin a good thing.

At this point, I think it is safe to say we are quibbling over minutae. Even with running two EL-34s on spongy, I can get my amp down to 'I can hear my guitar pick' levels. I can record my gear and prove that you can hear the pick. If this is still 'too loud', then people who complain seriously have problems. I think in my quest for great tone at low volumes, I have basically reached the absolute physical limit of the technology. Furthermore, in my experience, there is absolutely NO difference in volume between 2 EL-34s on spongy with a tube rectifier and 2 EL-84s / Yellowjackets. The real difference is actually in TONE. The EL-84s change the tone of a Dual Rectifier in a big way. The clean is hands down a MASSIVE improvement. The amp thinks it is a Vox or an 18 watt plexi. Something like that. The gain tone simply changes becoming much more vintage and mid focused. Initially it will sound very thin and bright, ESPECIALLY on the modern channel. As discussed above, manipulating EQ settings on the amp can smooth things out and yield usable and even good tones.

I guess if I was to distill this discussion, I'd go on record to say that there are two things that make low volume tones far better with a Recto.

1) Yank one rectifier tube and two power tubes. (run on spongy if necessary. Also use EL-34s)

2) Get a great sounding cab / speaker combination. I find a 2 x 12 is ideal since it retains beef but the speakers move more because there are less of them than in a 4 x 12. (I haven't heard many 1 x 12s that can do a great crunch. They usually sound thin) The oversized 2 x 12 with a ported centre baffle really mimics the sort of frequency response the Dual tone stack was originally designed to work with. Furthermore, the c90 really mutes the fizzy frequencies while v30 in turn adds definition to the tone. You end up with a much better lead tone, a rich and detailed clean, as well as a phat and meaty rhythm tone. It is very traditional mesa cab tone though. It isn't like a g12m 25 or other vintage speakers which give so much more brown and woody of a tone.

*Copy of a Mills Mach212B
 
YellowJacket said:
I was running Yellow Jackets today and I noticed with a bit of EQing a good tone can be had. It can get quiet enough that you can hear the guitar pick loud and clear but it isn't exactly 'quiet'. As you turn down the amp further, it just doesn't put out enough oomph to really move the speakers. To get rid of the over bright high end of the EL-84s, I ran my 2 channel recto on red to vintage and lowered the presence control on the red channel. Then I turned the orange channel presence up to add cut and sparkle to the extreme highs. I then dialed back the mids somewhat to make a 'bigger sound'. With the EL-84s you don't quite get the gut busting horsepower as you do with a 100watt head.

The EL-84s change the tone of a Dual Rectifier in a big way. The clean is hands down a MASSIVE improvement. The amp thinks it is a Vox or an 18 watt plexi. Something like that. The gain tone simply changes becoming much more vintage and mid focused.
*Copy of a Mills Mach212B

Thanks for your reply, great info!

I've been interested in trying Yellow Jackets in my Dual Rec for a long time and have a question for you, if you don't mind. Will the standard sized Yellow Jacket adapter/EL84 tube fit in a Dual Rec Head shell or do I need to buy the short version? Reason I ask is the short version is more expensive and I'd rather not spend the extra cash on two short ones, I'd rather buy 4 standard ones.


thanks,
Steve
 
I'm pretty sure mine are the standard ones and they do fit. I only have a pair since four of them puts out too much wattage for what I want all the time. I have had these for like 6 or 7 years now and I have contemplated getting a second pair at some point, but like you say, too much $$$s. Especially when I can throw in 6L6s or EL-34s when I need the extra $$$s.

Just be warned, the cab you pair with a DR running with yellow jackets is of huge importance. A 240 / 300watt 4 x 12 simply will sound stiff and underpowered. You're best to run a cab with a wattage rating of no more than 100watts for best results. The lower power speakers make the amp sound like it is working. The Mesa Standard Rectocab I used to have never sounded good with the Yellow Jackets. It wasn't until I tried the setup with the Marshall 1960ax cab that I found a tone that worked. Greenbacks are great and I'd also like to try a G12H of some variety.
 
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