Anyone had any experience with Kahler Bridges?

[MesaENGR412]

I'm looking at getting a couple of these tremolo bridges for my guitars and I was just wondering how they played, and if they had the same tension as normal floating/Locking Trems, and do they hold up in say....Dropped C tuning? I am really intrigued by how they work, and am excited about getting tremolos for the 2 guitars that have hardtails.

I'm planning on getting one of the 2200 series to replace a gibby style bridge and tailpiece on my explorer (Like this http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Divisions/Gibson USA/Products/GOTM/ShredX/), and then a 7-string 2300 series for an Ibanez RG321 I'm getting here shortly for a really good deal (my next project axe :twisted: )

Thanks for the input, I've really missed having guitars with trems, and now that my ibanez is fixed, and i got another one with a trem, i realized that I really like have the tremolo and use it quite often......

-AJH

 

[Commander Coo1]

i had ont on an esp, it originally had a floyd. i really wished i had gone with an original floyd, it would have been half the price. the kahler in my opinion sounds great in theory, so much adjustability, less routing... etc, but i didnt like it, it didnt stay in tune like the floyd did, i had to solder the ball ends of strings so they didnt unwind. yeah it felt great to use, and to rest my hand on, but other than that it wasnt worth it, unless you dont mind soldering the 3 small strings every time you change strings

 

[gonzo]

i've played a kahler pro 2300 since 1984.
so, 24 years of Kahler experience!

it's been great.

i've a/b'd it against all other trems, and still prefer it over ZR, lo pro, FR original, etc....

i DO solder the ball ends of the strings to keep them from slowly unraveling from the constant flex...

this would occur with any standard trem that doesn't lock down the ends of the strings.

personally, i found that having to lock the strings into the rose, at both ends, was more trouble than one minutes worth of soldering.


i recently bought a new HYBRID version of the pro 2300.

it can LOCK down as a hardtail.

this is pretty cool, but the way i tune down, and change to open tunings for recording, makes it a NON-LIVE WORK kind of deal...


i also much prefer the sound of locking the top of the strings BEHIND the nut, instead of actually ON the nut, as is the Rose locking nuts.

that way, i can chose bone, or brass, or graphtec, to be the 'tone' of the open sounds, instead of the steel on the typical rose nut.

in addition, the feel of the Kahler is so smooth, that if you like subtle trem work (which is how i use it mostly), it is superb for that kind of control.
i can palm the bar as i strum or fingerstyle, and barely warble the bar and it sounds like a chorus effect.

very nice.


there are many options for the roller parts of the bridge as well, i've tried both steel and brass, and have found i like brass the best....

there are regular springs for the kahler, and more STIFF springs, both of which i've tried, i like the stiff ones myself.


it allows much more of the body wood to remain (some people think that the massive amount of wood that is taken out to house the floyd rose style springs and tone bar takes away, others thinks it adds, i'm somwhere in between).

i have the flatmount version....
i've played the stud-mount version, prefer the flat mount, but if you're already used to the TOM style bridge, it wont bother you at all.

seems that the kahler has a smoother feel than the rose, on a carved top guitar....
but everybody likes different stuff, that may not matter to you at all.

point is, it's an extremely well made trem, that by my experience, stays in tune just as good as a rose, and each has to bet setup properly for it's best performance.

 

[camsna]

Here's my take on Kahler bridges.

1) They're made well. They stay in tune.

2) They sound like poo.

 

[gonzo]

and my take is, they sound great!
better than a rose...

just goes to show you.....


my recent kahler surgery:

here's a link to my pictorial of my changeout from the original kahler, to the new hybrid:
http://s20.photobucket.com/albums/b219/gonzo-x/kahler%20changeout/

 

[gonzo]

hell, the original reasons i WENT with the kaher, is because i thought it sounded so much better than the ROSE!!

LOL

it helps with marketing, when you start out with somebody like eddie van halen on board.........
8)

 

[Sustain]

slayer uses kahler locking tremolo's as far as I know, and they torque the crap out of them. seems like they are holding up pretty well for those guys.

 

[thinskin57]

They sound like poo

i used to think so too, but i found out that it depends on the guitar and how you install it. maybe the GUITAR sounds like poo, or it just isn't sympathetic to the kahler. i had one on a mexi strat and it sucked what little life the guitar had to begin with right out of it. i recently put the new kahler hybrid on my clapton strat and it sounds just as good, if not better. strum the guitar and i can feel the wood come alive, vibrating against my body. one thing i did this time, and this is important- when i installed it on my clapton strat, i routed the guitar so that the trem is countersunk into the body. by doing this, it forces you to RAISE the bridge saddles, thus creating more downward tension on the string/bridge contact point. my mexi strat wasn't done like this and as a result the saddles were pretty low, with no real angle. think of what a strat would sound like without string retainers on the headstock to create any tension, then you get the picture.

regarding people who say it doesn't stay in tune- well, you DO have to stretch the hell out of the strings for a while and then you're good to go. at least on strats, where the strings pass straight through the nut slots. i don't know if i'd want to try one on my les paul due to the angle, and i'm not a fan of the lock behind the nut. had one on my G&L in the 80's and it stayed in tune no better than not having the lock at all. although adrian belew now plays parker, he used kahlers exclusively for years. i saw him live several times just beating the hell out of his kahler equipped strat and he was in tune at all times. no locking nut, but he did use locking schaller and sperzel tuners.

 

[MesaENGR412]

although adrian belew now plays parker, he used kahlers exclusively for years. i saw him live several times just beating the hell out of his kahler equipped strat and he was in tune at all times. no locking nut, but he did use locking schaller and sperzel tuners.

yeah, i plan on putting sperzels on both guitars that I am planning on installing these bridges on.

-AJH

 

[stadidas]

do they hold up in say....Dropped C tuning?

My brother plays in G#, and they endorsed him. So I'd say they'll be fine for dropped C.

 

[Southernhell]

I have always used a Kahler on every one of my good guitars I have owned, except the two Ibanezs I have have owned. Been playing about 26 years so I have roughly the same amount of time on them as Gonzo.

Here is my take on Kahler tremolos.

Soldering the string ends
If you put the correct bend on the ball end of the strings, you do not have to solder the wrapped portion. Feel the wrap and where the end of the wrap is, you bend the string so that faces away from the guitar when you put it in the ball retainer claw.

Similar to Floyd type feel
Not unless you are using the heavy spring set. With the regular spring set, the tremolo feels way more fluid and quicker response. Cutting soft butter with a room temperature knife to use an analogy. The heavy springs feel like a Floyd, cutting cold butter with a warm knife to use an analogy.

Adjustibility
None better, you can adapt the tremolo to pretty much any neck angle, string spacing, and fretboard radius with the stock unit. Shim the base if you have a really steep neck angle. Now with the hybrid you can even make the tremolo a stop tail

Able to tailor a personal tone
You can buy different metal cams as well as rollers to tweak your personal tone. Steel, brass, and billet aluminum.

Tuning issues
Nothing different than any other locking type. You tune to pitch until the tremolo wont go out of tune across the strings, stretch each string and retune until that string stays in tune, progress across all strings, lock down, fine tune. Same as a Floyd style. One difference, when you break a string, you swap it out, retune and you are back in the game. With a Floyd type you have to unlock all strings to reset the tremolo. Kind of a ***** in a live setting.

Gripes
New base plate is clunky compared to the old one. New fine tuners feel crammed and if you have large fingers like I do access to the tuners near the bar is a bit of a task(you might have to change your hand position to get to them). Billet Aluminum. The tone is somewhat in between brass(full and mellow) and steel(bright and cutting), but not as resonant as either. Took me a bit to get used to after using brass cams with steel rollers forever.

 

[srf399]

Installed a Kahler on my strat this weekend. I ended up having to recess it 5mm so that the action would be like it was stock... I hate the Les Paul feel with the string way up off the pick guard and shimming the neck. ewwwww. Worked beautifully. The thing sounds better than the Fender bridge with graphtec saddles. A very nice improvement. Installing locking nut this week.

 

[Sustain]

Installed a Kahler on my strat this weekend. I ended up having to recess it 5mm so that the action would be like it was stock... I hate the Les Paul feel with the string way up off the pick guard and shimming the neck. ewwwww. Worked beautifully. The thing sounds better than the Fender bridge with graphtec saddles. A very nice improvement. Installing locking nut this week.

huh? are you saying high action is a les paul feel?

 

[gonzo]

it's the angle that the string breaks over....

pauls typically have an arched top, with a neck that's set at an angle..
the TOM bridge has to be higher to hit the same angle as the neck.

the strat, is flat all the way, with the bolt neck being almost the same angle..... so you have to position the trem so you've got enough break angle.

it's pretty straightforward stuff.

 

[srf399]

Exactly.... I prefer the neck coming straight off the guitar body and not angled like a Les Paul. Setting up a Kahler bridge you have to get the saddles at about a 30 degree angle so that there is sufficient downward string pressure on the rollers. In doing so your strings will be towering way up above the body, pickguard, and pickups. You'll either have to tilt your neck back and raise your pickups (which looks really stupid and feels even worse) or you'll have to recess the Kahler about 5mm into the body. Not an easy feat by the way.... Good hand/eye coordination and a ton a patience and I was able to fluke out a perfect fit. My face within inches of the spinning router bit at times. If you try lowering the saddles to get a normal strat saddle level there will not be enough downward pressure on the saddle rollers and your sustain with cease to exist and you'll get awful buzzing. I must say though that the bridge feels amazing recessed! Really nice low profile. Also the feel of the guitar has improved over the stock Fender bridge. The sustain is better and the feel is a lot smoother making bending buttery smooth. Makes the guitar much more compelling to play. When you bend a string the bridge gives a little making it very smooth feeling. Nicest tremolo bridge I've ever played.

Also... Les Pauls and Gibsons in general have a really nice action... Flatter radius fingerboard allowing for lower action. My next move will be a flatter radius neck.

BTW...

Before I installed the Kahler I figured it was going to add some weight to the guitar... I prefer my guitars featherweight. The Fender bridge with arm, springs and all other components weighed 395 grams.... The Kahler with arm weighed 401 grams.... so factoring the wood routed out they are a trade off weight wise

 

[Sustain]

ah, I got you now!

I personally enjoy that 14 degree neck pitch, i assume it has something to do with how great the action is on my paul. I never considered its impact on a tremolo system (of course I never considered installing one in my paul either).

Thanks for the clarification!

 

[MesaENGR412]

This is great feedback guys, thanks for all the replies! Feel free to add more!

 

[kiff]

I have an explorer that came w/ one. I've had it since '89... I love the standard bridge feel of it and it sounds fine. For me it's never stayed in tune even remotely as well as my guitars w/ floyds. I've also had a lot of problems with string breakage. They seem to break right behind the rollers. I've never tried the soldering fix, never heard of that 'till I saw this thread...

I'm considering having a standard bridge put in it (explorer). I just got a les paul, so I'd have my gibs both std bridge and just have the floyds on my jackson and ibanez...

 

[Southernhell]

I have an explorer that came w/ one. I've had it since '89... I love the standard bridge feel of it and it sounds fine. For me it's never stayed in tune even remotely as well as my guitars w/ floyds. I've also had a lot of problems with string breakage. They seem to break right behind the rollers. I've never tried the soldering fix, never heard of that 'till I saw this thread...

I'm considering having a standard bridge put in it (explorer). I just got a les paul, so I'd have my gibs both std bridge and just have the floyds on my jackson and ibanez...

The soldering fix that was mentioned is taking a soldering iron to where the wraps are around the ball end and applying solder to the string. The reason behind this is that the string rests over the cam which is the main pivot point of the system. The way a Kahler works in theory is that it stretches the string when you use it. Not enough to take the string out of tune when the tremolo goes back to its floating point, but the wraps on the string are a weak point in this system. Soldering the strings takes this weak point out of the equation. The method I described earlier works as well. Eventually the strings break on a Kahler in the same area. Either right at the wrap point or right behind the roller. Much like 99% of the time a string breaks on a Floyd type right where it makes that 90 degree bend coming out of the saddle lock.

MesaENGR412: If you have not already done so with your 2200, take real good measurements on your Gibson before you route. I have heard that in recent years Gibson slightly changed the spacing of the studs on their TOM bridges that will not jibe with the Kahler 2200 resulting in having to pull the studs and inserts, re-dowel, and re-drill to install the studs so you can properly install a Kahler 2200.

 

[srf399]

Just finished installing a Floyd Rose locking nut to go with my Kahler 2315.

The locking tuners and graphite nut were not stable IMO.

It's extremely stable now and isn't going out of tune at all. I will say that out of all the installs I've done on my guitar this was the most challenging. It taxed my woodworking skills to the max but I was able to install it properly with countersunk holes for the bolts. I wouldn't attempt installing one unless you have a good drill press and router. One mistake and you can kiss your neck goodbye.