Another Speaker cab review: 1x12 WCB stacked vs. 2x12 recto

[elvis]

I just went through a gear trial with a 1x12 widebody closed back (ported) vs. a 2x12 recto. These effects were all observed with a Mark V:25 at reasonable volume. Settings below, FAT and MARK IV modes.

When I originally A/B'd these, I found that the 1x12 had a pretty similar tone to the 2x12. It was surprising, running them side-by-side, how well the 1x12 seemed to give the 2x12 a run for its money.

Overall, I have found the 2x12 recto vertical to be a well-balanced cabinet with a good amount of girth from the large volume, a tight but full low-end, and a nice cut and rasp from the V30 and the upward-angled top speaker.

It can be beamy, though, and it is a pain to move.

The 1x12 with V30 held its own quite well in the low-end, and has a very nice upper-mid presence thanks to the port. It also seems less beamy, and I can stand pretty much anywhere and hear it. Sure, it's louder on-axis, but I don't feel the need to angle it up at me to hear it. I just played it on a quite large stage with my band and I could hear it everywhere even though it was flat on the ground (I did put it on its side, though).

In additional A/B testing, I was able to tell that the 2x12 has more "oomph", but the 1x12 actually has more low-end. The 2x12 is tighter in the lows, but the 1x12 has massive lows. The 1x12 misses some of that large-volume resonance, though.

Last night I ran a stack of two 1x12 WCB cabs. One has a V30, the other a C90. I wanted to pair these to get clean lows from the C90 and mid breakup from the V30. GRANTED, the C90 is brand-new and not broken-in.

What I heard:
The C90 is around the same volume as the V30. I didn't hear one dominate.
The C90 sounds cleaner and fuller, but more clean and less lively.
The V30 is more crispy, with a bit less fullness.

Stacked together (C90 on the bottom), I got a great complement of full, clean low-end and lively mid cut/crunch. Clean sounds fabulous, crunch sounds full and huge. I heard the large-volume resonance that I had been missing (girth, oomph, whatever), but with big lows and less directionality. I think this setup is a big winner. Taken together, the two 1x12 cabs will be as much to haul as a 2x12, but a bit easier to load in two pieces, and I think really superior tonally to the 2x12. Big eye-opener.

In the store vs. a Thiele, the widebody closed has much more low-end, but is less tight. Stacking Thieles sounds big. Stacking the WCB is ridiculous.

Enjoy!

NOTE: My Electradyne has a lot more low-end than the MV:25, and even through the tighter 2x12 cab it can be a bit oppressive. I imagine that the stacked 1x12 cabs would have too much low end for that amp.

 

[jb's 52]

What I heard:
The C90 is around the same volume as the V30. I didn't hear one dominate.
The C90 sounds cleaner and fuller, but more clean and less lively.
The V30 is more crispy, with a bit less fullness.

Stacked together (C90 on the bottom), I got a great complement of full, clean low-end and lively mid cut/crunch. Clean sounds fabulous, crunch sounds full and huge. I heard the large-volume resonance that I had been missing (girth, oomph, whatever), but with big lows and less directionality. I think this setup is a big winner. Taken together, the two 1x12 cabs will be as much to haul as a 2x12, but a bit easier to load in two pieces, and I think really superior tonally to the 2x12. Big eye-opener.

I fully agree with everything said here. I love the C90 and V30 paired together.
One takes off where the other one ends. The C90 will get "lively-er" when
broken in and start rounding out the bottom. I hate hauling around two
1x12s to be honest, but it's better than a 4x12...hehe. Plus, with two 1x12s
more sound guys will mic both cabs and play with the mix of the two.

 

[Jiveman]

Nice writeup and very useful info for guys like me, who have really only had a chance to play with one or two kinds of speakers. Thanks! I have a Mark V head with a horizontal 2x12 recto cab. I love the sound, but I rarely get to actually experience its full potential. But I DO frequently get to suffer its size and weight side-effects, so I've been mulling over possibly selling the 2x12 and getting a 1x12 (used or new), but I had no idea what kind of sound trade-off's I'd be getting (or which 1x12 to go with). It sounds like a 1x12 WCB ported, V30, would be a very worthy replacement for the 2x12. The combo with two 1x12's sounds like a great setup, but in my case, the point would be downsizing. Does this sounds like a logical interpretation of what you described so far?

 

[elvis]

Yeah, I think that would be viable.

HOWEVER, a single V30 is only rated for 60W. A 90W Mark V can kill it if you play loud enough.

 

[elvis]

UPDATE....

I have now played two rehearsals with the two 1x12 cabs. I run them stacked, C90 on the bottom and V30 on top.

I had to cut the master a bit, as two cabs at 4 Ohms is quite a bit louder than 1 cab at 8 Ohms.

About halfway through the second rehearsal, everyone complained that they can't hear me. The bass player commented that I just wasn't cutting like I had. This was confusing, since I had JUST gone through significant effort to fix that.

At his urging, I went back to just the 1 cab with V30. WOW! It cuts through like crazy. And has way more presence. By itself, the combination of the two cabs sounds fuller, though a bit more tame. With the band, it is mud city. It's possible that running them louder to push the speakers would help that, but at the volume I'm running with this drummer, it's not possible.

I do wonder if two V30 cabs would be better, but the single V30 cab sounds great and cuts like crazy, so why fix it if it ain't broken. I may swap a V30 into the other cab one day just to see.

I still need to try the C90 1x12 with my Dyne. I won't have to worry about blowing it at 90W like I did with the V30.

 

[primal]

Your experience with the Vintage 30 was the same as mine.

Like I mentioned in another thread. I had run a 2x12 with Celestion G12T-75's and I just couldn't cut through the mix.

Switched to a Carvin Legacy cab with 2 vintage 30's, and there I was. Easily cutting through.

Has me thinking I would like to try a cab with an Eminence speaker. They generally have the highest SPL.

Thinking the Governor.

Anyone have any recommendations of another high spl eminence (or other brand, but with a high spell) for a Mark series amp?

 

[elvis]

ANOTHER UPDATE...

Significantly reduced the muddiness by pushing up the mids with the GEQ. Sounds heavier in the lows, but still good presence.

Without pushing up the mids, this still sounds amazing at home. Just can't cut through the band with it.

 

[primal]

Do you find you need to do that when just using the vintage 30 cab?

And what mode are you generally playing in?

 

[elvis]

The V30 by itself rips through like a buzzsaw!

I added the C90 to get more depth and warmth, especially with cleans. It does that, but doesn't have the mids. Interestingly, it is dark enough that it still scoops the combination of V30 and C90 cabs.

Happily, the Mark V 25 is up to the task of tuning the whole thing. The cool thing is that I can run clean without EQ and get the C90 goodness, and then EQ Ch2 and get more of the V30 tone. Almost like a Road King, but without actually switching speakers.

 

[Dreamtheaterrules]

Hey E,

I run mine through 2 1x12s, top is the V30/Mini Recto, which as you know is a tight focused cab by itself. (in fact, don't care for it with my Mini Rec because it just sounds small compared to the>) on bottom is a V30 Avatar Cube. The cube is much deeper cab and has way more bass and because it sits on the floor, even more vs. the Recto cab on top of it.

One thing I noticed when you said it was a lot of mud on stage, is that compared to my settings, you have mids and bass much higher, plus the low EQ slider higher. My setup would definitely mud out with those settings. To keep bass tight on channel 2, I normally have the knob set no higher than 9:00 as adding it back with the EQ translates to much tighter bass on the high gain channels. And yes, I see how you have the gain down to around 10:00 on C2.

So I'm wondering if maybe the V30 over C90 has as much potential as you thought, but might require some minor EQ tweaking. Have you messed with that in that setup? I was thinking of selling my Recto cab for either a 2x12 vertical, or a 1x12 ported w/ Fillmore.

 

[elvis]

Hey E,

I run mine through 2 1x12s, top is the V30/Mini Recto, which as you know is a tight focused cab by itself. (in fact, don't care for it with my Mini Rec because it just sounds small compared to the>) on bottom is a V30 Avatar Cube. The cube is much deeper cab and has way more bass and because it sits on the floor, even more vs. the Recto cab on top of it.

One thing I noticed when you said it was a lot of mud on stage, is that compared to my settings, you have mids and bass much higher, plus the low EQ slider higher. My setup would definitely mud out with those settings. To keep bass tight on channel 2, I normally have the knob set no higher than 9:00 as adding it back with the EQ translates to much tighter bass on the high gain channels. And yes, I see how you have the gain down to around 10:00 on C2.

So I'm wondering if maybe the V30 over C90 has as much potential as you thought, but might require some minor EQ tweaking. Have you messed with that in that setup? I was thinking of selling my Recto cab for either a 2x12 vertical, or a 1x12 ported w/ Fillmore.

Thanks for the comments!

I'm not having a problem with bass flubbiness. It's actually very tight. The EQ settings give me a bit of rumble or girth during transient attack, but you'd be surprised how little low-end there really is. At home by itself, these cabs sound GREAT. When I first got the Mark V, I ran more gain, so I had bass and mid set lower. With the gain at 10:00, I need to pull up the bass or it sounds really anemic. I also switched from IIC+ mode to IV mode to get more lows and more mid saturation with the low gain.

The real issue is the lack of mids in the band setting. In my band you can't hear the low-end from the guitar at all. I am running way more 1k and 3.3k than I like at home, but it cuts really well with the band. This is why the V30 is so great for cutting. It's like 112% mids.

The C90 is like 5% mids. The extra low-end I get from the C90 is still tight. But the overall tone shifts to less mids, so I lose definition. It literally sounds like there is a blanket over the cabinets with the band. When I pulled the C90 out, the V30 cuts like crazy. Pull up 750Hz on the GEQ with the C90 added to the V30 (in this case setting for no cut or boost) and again it's like taking the blanket off.

One thing I am going to try is to put the V30 cab on the bottom. A bit less low end from the C90 might help.

 

[Dreamtheaterrules]

Sorry, I read your "mud city" comment as bass and mids mushing out.

I know what you mean about the 750 slider. I see so many guys who run it way way down. When I try it that way, it can sound great at home, but I can see how it would get lost in a live band. I prefer more mids anyway, so I never turn it down that low.

I keep wanting to try a C90 or (actually AND) Fillmore with the front port cab. I originally wanted a Thiele, but I think you've got me convinced the front port 1x is the one I want. My dealer hasn't had either in in over a year. Said they sell mainly the 1x12 and 2x12 recto and the 4x12 in their store, so that's what they stock.

 

[elvis]

I had to special order my cabs. Luckily they had a V30 one on the floor to try first, but the C90 cab was a blind purchase.

 

[siggy14]

Any further updates on this? I just got my Mark Mini and I have two 1x12 recto slants and I have a thiele coming in today, just curious if you were able to make the thiele work. I am thinking I might have to swap the speaker and put a V30 in the Thiele if this is the case.

 

[elvis]

I think the Thiele will be tighter. The widebody has hecka low-end.

I found that pulling up the 750Hz slider helped a lot. Probably adding more treble and/or presence would also do the trick.

The C90 is really nice in that it adds a lot of low-end thump that the V30 just doesn't have.

You can also dump a little bit of lows by running two 8-Ohm cabs in parallel (4 Ohms total) from the 8-Ohm speaker jack on the amp instead of the 4-Ohm jack. This is a "safe mismatch" and starves the speakers a bit. Since most of the power goes to low frequencies, that starves the low-end.

 

[primal]

I have a Splawn 2x12

Pulled out the G12T-75's and put in two 16ohm vintage 30's (one a brand new Chinese made, the other, an old made in England model)
wired in parallel at 8ohms

WOW.

The vintage 30's in that enclosure sound great! And it is considerably louder then the G12T-75's

Anyone who tells you a 3db difference is a whisper must be referring to actual whispers.

db is NOT linear. A 3db difference at whisper level may not sound like a lot,

a 3db difference with a cranked tube amp is a BIG difference.

Reading the manual again, I picked up on something I had not picked up on earlier. It suggested for higher gain, if you have it cranked to back off on the gain a bit and letting the power tube over drive make up the difference. Very nice!

 

[groovebelly]

Is there a wide body closed back front ported 1x12 with a V30?
I thought it only came with C90 ?!?

 

[Dreamtheaterrules]

I'd want to try that cab with a Fillmore. I want to try the cab first, then might order one.

 

[elvis]

Is there a wide body closed back front ported 1x12 with a V30?
I thought it only came with C90 ?!?

You can order them with either speaker. Or empty.

 

[Dreamtheaterrules]

yep! I'm hoping to get to a dealer and try that cab with C90. Then I'll decide if I want that to compliment the Mini Rec/V30 cab, or would rather order that cab with a Fillmore.