A n00b and his quest for an amplifier

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Koreth

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Greetings everyone.

As I am sure is shown by my post count, I'm new here. I've been playing guitar off and on for a couple years now, and am now at a point where I'm no longer ashamed to plug my guitar into an amplifer for fear that others might hear my horrendous playing. I've recently found myself in search of an amplifer, as my previous one, a solid state something that Google has never heard of blew its power transformer, and I was told that parts couldn't be found for it. Somewhere along the line, I decided I'd had my fill of solid state amps and amp modeling on my computer and decided it was time to get a real amplifier - one that was all tubes.

Thus far, I've only looked at some Marshalls and some Mesas, admittedly because Metallica and Dream Theater have used them, repsectively. I suppose I should try some other brand of amps, but some of the tones that Petrucci had at the latest Dream Theater gig were just so **** beautiful-we wants it, precious. :)
In my search for amplifiers, I've mainly been taking my guitar to various stores that let me demo the amps they have and just a few riffs on my guitar while fiddling with the knobs in search of a tone that I like. I found a shop in town that had a used Single Rectovereb 1x12 combo with an extra 1x12 cabinet. Cleans where eh, but when I got the volume turned down on the distortion channel so that the store's front windows stopped vibrating louder than the amp, I fell in love. "Oooh, that's....Yeah. That's aggressive". I ran out of time and they had to kick me out of the shop so they could close for the day. I was going to go back to put money down on the amp, only to find out that someone else bought it. ****.

I've played some other Rectifiers at Guitar Center, including a Triple, a Single, a Roadster and a Road King. Thus far, I've not found that same awesomely aggressive tone that the Rectoverb had. I've also played with a 5:25, and I think it was a Lonestar, but thus far, I've not found a tone I like. I'd pick up the Road King anyway, because with all those knobs and switches, there have to be some awesome tones inside it, somewhere, but it is beyond my budget and credit limit currently, unless I can get a deal during one of Guitar Center's sales or something.

So at this point I'm feeling a bit stuck and uncertain what to do. I've no use for the Wal-Mart amp that came with my Wal-Mart guitar. Now I know some people are going to tell me to get a better guitar before looking at an amp. While I'd love a newer, better guitar, my current one plays comfortably enough, and I know from demoing amps and guitars at the various stores that a crappy guitar sounds a lot better through a good amp than vice versa, in spite of how bad a player I am. I will acknowledge that my cheap guitar has cheap pickups that probably sound worse than most other pickups out there, and am tempted to change them out, but I remember that the rectoverb sounded awesome, even with my cheap pickups. I'm feeling tempted to try changing out the pickups in my guitar with something better before demoing anything else and see if maybe I can find a good tone that way. Or perhaps there are some other good tube amps I should try that aren't as costly as the Road King.

What do you guys suggest?
 
Hello, and welcome to the board :D

What style of music do you play? I know that they are almost impossible to find but you should really try the Mark series as well.

The ROV combo uses a C90 speaker, I'm not sure what was in the 1X12 cab. & that may have contributed to the unique tone of that amp VS the other Recto's you demo'ed.

If the ROV really did it for you try to find another to spend more time with. It may be "the one" for you.

Dom
 
Triple Rectifiet
Channel 3, Modern
Bass - 8
Mid - 4
Treb - 6
Gain - 8
Pres - 5
Master - 6

run that through a cab with Celestian V90's (i use a Traynor YCS412 with em) and you'll find some earth shattering agressiveness
i love it :D

either way, V90's seem the way to go for the recitifers (atleast that is waht i found - i took my triple to the local stores and played it through several diff cabs - Marshall 1960A's and B's, Peavey Triple XXX's, someo ther ones they had there - the GT75's in the marshalls made it wayyy to muddy and loose.)
 
Welcome to the board.

I'm sure this isn't what you want to hear, but this would be my advice (and I'm not trying to preach, just trying to help you avoid making a potential mistake here).

Since you've only been playing a couple of years, I think you'd be making the wrong decision dumping a ton of money into a world class hand-built tube amplifier before getting your hands on a better guitar. Although you may not be experienced enough right now, you will do better spending some cash on a decent axe, and considering something other than a rectifier.

I asssume you're not an actively gigging musician, right? For the amount of $ you'd spend on a rectifier (which is about as far from a bedroom amp as you can get, by the way) - and you're looking at something in the $1,000 range at least I would think - you could get your hands on a very decent axe, and if you're married to the idea of playing a boogie, you could start out with something like a used F-30, or an older studio .22 or DC-3 if you can get your hands on one. That way you'll be enjoying tube tone, and playing a guitar that will at least give you some semblance of a decent tone.

Wile it may be true that a crappy axe through a good amp is better than a great axe through a crappy amp (I'm not sure I'm totally convinced that's true anyway), with the kind of cash you're looking to spend, you can get a decent axe as well as a great amp. Think carefully before you dump tons of money into your gear.
 
i agree with plumptone. get a better axe and a pretty decent amp with the same money you're gonna spend on a new boogie. and he's definitely right about it not being a bedroom amp. most (if not all) mesas are definitely not bedroom amps and you have to turn them up quite a ways to really appreciate their tone. you might want to think about looking into a decent solid state amp (maybe like a marshall AVT or something in kind) and a better guitar (epi les paul or fender strat depending on your preference) and still save some $ over buying a boogie. you might be able to pick up an older used model for a deal, and in that case, i'd say go for it. but with your level of experience, i'd say definitely look into a better guitar first.
 
I disagree with both of them, if you have your heart set on something get it, because you will eventually anyway. But in the mean time you will just be gasing for it and longing for it and regretting not buying it.

But I also do agree you need to get a better guitar before anything. I suggest you look around and find a good used Rectoverb on ebay, you can usually get them for about $800 to $900 and then find a nice used guitar on ebay. You can get alot of good Ibanez's for about $200 that will blow away that crappy walmart guitar.
 
Koreth said:
Thus far, I've only looked at some Marshalls and some Mesas, admittedly because Metallica and Dream Theater have used them

Right you are sir. Metallica and Dream Theater tone can be exclusively found in any of these 3 amplifiers:

Mark2C+ (most expensive, only buy used)
Mark4 (about 900-1500, new or used)
Mark3 (about 800-1200, used)

They used these amps to record the bulk of their famous albums, so they will get you spot on with the tone.
 
I realize I probably sound like a newb who thinks more expensive gear is going to make him a better player, because expensive gear is what all the pros use. Believe me when I say that is not the case, I know that only regular practice is going to help me get better. Some instruction by a good teacher wouldn't be a bad idea either, and I've been trying to figure out how work some lessons into my budget.

I am aware that a new axe is in order, but as things stand now, all I have is the Wal-Mart amp I bought at the same time as my guitar. I honestly don't care for its tone. Something is just off with the cleans, and its distortion is disgusting. The only reason I'm keeping it around is in case I ever genuinely want a disgusting tone to make some kind of artistic point. Though to be fair, I'm probably more likely to set it on fire one night when drunk or something. :) Regardless, when that was the only amp I had, I didn't practice as often as I could or should have, because I couldn't stand the sound.

However, while the other solid state amp I just recently blew up somehow didn't have much better distortion than the Wal-Mart amp, it was at least was something I could listen to. And the clean tone was so much better. I bought a couple pedals, and found myself practicing much more often. I dare say I've improved more in the time with this second amp then I did in the year + with the Wal-Mart.

That, combined with having heard tube amps versus solid state amps, I don't want another solid state something, there's just something about solid state tone that doesn't do it for me. Now, I'll admit a Rectifier is a less than ideal choice if I'm not actively giging or recording, and mostly practicing (I assume this is what is meant by "bedroom amp" and "bedroom level"). 50w, 100, 150w, does sound a bit excessive for practicing in the garage or in the bedroom. So what smaller tube amps to consider then? Perhaps one of these ones that can switch between low and high wattage, like a Lonestar or an Express?

I may very well be picking up a new axe anyway. Guitar center has a lot of deals going this month because of some anniversery celebration, and I know I heard them mention some kind of "buy an amp, get a guitar free" sale on the radio on my way to work last night. While it is probably a cheap guitar they are giving away, I can't imagine Guitar Center's worst being any worse than Wal-Mart's best.
 
you might want to think about getting a modeling amp like a (gasp!) line 6 or a vox ad30vt. i have the ad30vt for a practice amp and love it. it has a bunch of different models on it and effects to boot. it also has a "power level" control on the back that is almost like an attenuator. so you can get that cranked sound w/o cranking it. granted it isn't a tube amp, but for what you'll use it for, it is a great amp. i love it, but it just doesn't have the power i need for gigging and such. they only run like $300 and there are a bunch of different wattage options. i'd check out something like that and look into a new guitar as well for the same amount of money.

here's a link to the exact amp i have:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Vox-Valvetronix-AD30VT-30W-Guitar-Combo?sku=481959

there's plenty more on there too. different wattage models and such.
 
I was thinking the same thing, but if you have a good home stereo I would say go with a POD 2.0, get some adaptors from Radio shack and you will be good. You will have so many options and great for beginning, plus built in effects, and best of all between the pod and the adaptors you could get it all for under $200. I recommend the POD 2.0 as they sound the most organic out of all them, or the pod 2.0 pro is also good.

jtb226 said:
you might want to think about getting a modeling amp like a (gasp!) line 6 or a vox ad30vt. i have the ad30vt for a practice amp and love it. it has a bunch of different models on it and effects to boot. it also has a "power level" control on the back that is almost like an attenuator. so you can get that cranked sound w/o cranking it. granted it isn't a tube amp, but for what you'll use it for, it is a great amp. i love it, but it just doesn't have the power i need for gigging and such. they only run like $300 and there are a bunch of different wattage options. i'd check out something like that and look into a new guitar as well for the same amount of money.

here's a link to the exact amp i have:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Vox-Valvetronix-AD30VT-30W-Guitar-Combo?sku=481959

there's plenty more on there too. different wattage models and such.
 
+1 on getting a better guitar. At this point in your playing career I believe you need the better playability of a nice guitar much more than a top-of-the-line amp. It sounds like you do need a better amp; I don't know the price of a Rectoverb but it would imagine it's well over 1k. For that you could get a decent guitar and enough amp to keep you going.

Modeling amps are certainly an option; personally, the only transistor amp I've ever liked is my Evans JE150 and it is unique in it's ability to sound warm; I have a Pod Line 6 that I use for practicing through headphones; if you've played through tube amps a lot you just FEEL the modeling as you play. Stick with tubes if you can.

Good luck.
 
Tube amps are just loud, hands down. And if you're not playing them loud, you're not taking full advantage of them. Even 15 watt tube amps will rattle the windows. If you're still working on your playing skills then a modelling amp may indeed be the way to go- when I was learning I had a modeler pedal that helped me think about playing different kinds of styles based on the kinds of effects I could use. You can get a good modeling amp for 3-400 dollars (tech 21, line 6, vox, roland cube, there are lots of threads and knowledgeable people on here), and that would allow you to look into some nicer budget guitars. Schecter makes great guitars for cheap, and the PRS SE guitars are AWESOME. Nothing plays like a PRS in my opinion- superb craftsmanship. You can get a PRS SE santana for 3-400, a rocking bridge pickup (if you even need it) for 60, and a good amp for 3-400, and you're still under the 1K range :)

Bad stock pickups will definitely hinder your tone quest though... but its better to have the guitar/amp combo worked out before you swap pickups so that you can add qualities you want and get rid of qualities you dont want.

Rectoverbs do sound sweet though. The F-30s, even though they're at the "bottom of the Mesa line," sounds awesome. But there's really no point in getting a tube amp if you don't play live- unless you just want to blow your eardrums :)

The Line 6 modeling amp has tons of options for tone tweaking, and you can download other peoples tones that they've created. There's a pretty big community for the Line 6 modelers... just a thought.
 
Something that just ocurred to me that I've not seen anyone suggest yet, is running smaller or less tubes in a smaller amp. As I understand the 6v6 and EL84 are essentially little brothers of the 6L6 and EL34, respectively, with the same or a very similar tone, but with somewhere around half the output. Couldn't I run some of these smaller tubes in a tube amp and then not have to worry about the amp being so loud? Is there a reason why this wouldn't be a good idea?

Another thing that I've seen mentioned is using some kind of dummy load or attenuator to quiet the amp down after it has been cranked up to get the desired tone. Any reason why this would not be an option?
 
Koreth said:
Something that just ocurred to me that I've not seen anyone suggest yet, is running smaller or less tubes in a smaller amp. As I understand the 6v6 and EL84 are essentially little brothers of the 6L6 and EL34, respectively, with the same or a very similar tone, but with somewhere around half the output. Couldn't I run some of these smaller tubes in a tube amp and then not have to worry about the amp being so loud? Is there a reason why this wouldn't be a good idea?

Another thing that I've seen mentioned is using some kind of dummy load or attenuator to quiet the amp down after it has been cranked up to get the desired tone. Any reason why this would not be an option?

Well the main reason it hasnt been mentioned already is probably because the THD attenuator costs 299.99 on MF. Personally I would look around on ebay for a used guitar. I got my 1990's Jackson Rhoads EX Professional with EMG 81/85 pups with a case and a floyd rose for 400 shipped to my door. Then Also look around for a used Recto-verb since you liked it so much. Mesas hold their value so you should be able to sell the Recto-verb if you get it home and decide you dont like it anymore. If you bought a used guitar and a used Recto-verb you would probably be in the same price range as you would be in buying the Recto-verb brand new. The Recto-verb is $1479 new just to let you know as well. But thats just my 2 cents.
 
50w is still hugely loud in a house, and an attenuator will hardly get a recto running at 1/2 power (50w) with a 212 cab, down to 'bedroom levels' .

I agree with everyone else: these really aren't bedroom equipment...they don't go low enough. Get a nice Epi LP or something with some playability and a good Line 6. You will get all that you can handle in a house situation, and you'll have more fun playing a guitar with some nice action.

It may not be what you want to hear right now, but all these guys aren't wrong....
 
50w is still hugely loud in a house, and an attenuator will hardly get a recto running at 1/2 power (50w) with a 212 cab, down to 'bedroom levels' .

I agree with everyone else: these really aren't bedroom equipment...they don't go low enough. Get a nice Epi LP or something with some playability and a good Line 6. You will get all that you can handle in a house situation, and you'll have more fun playing a guitar with some nice action.

It may not be what you want to hear right now, but all these guys aren't wrong....
 
Alright, an attenuator won't get a 100w rectifier down to 1/2 power (50w) What about a 50w rectifier running smaller power tubes (6V6s or EL84s), and an attenuator? Or what about a smaller amp built around smaller tubes? Such things do exist, right? I'm willing to give a modeling amp a try, but to be honest, with my previous experience with modeling, I've not got high hopes.

I don't know what it is, but having heard both tube amps and solid state, I really like the tone of tube amps over solid state ones. Even that Fender Twin Somethingorother that some kid was demoing on at Guitar Center last weekend (which I understand isn't capable of a nice metal tone) sounded far richer and juicier than the solid states some other guys were demoing a few rows down.

If a Rectifier is an impractical choice due to its high output, isn't there some smaller tube amp that Mesa or someone else makes (or made) that would meet my needs?
 
Have you considered the Express series? They cover alot of tone territory and if you need uber-metal you can use a pedal.

They come in two models, the 5:25 and 5:50 which do 5 & 25 watts or 5 & 50 watts respectively.

5 tube watts is still loud, but not too bad.

Dom
 
Sounds like money is really an issue. It is for me too. It's all about being in the right place at the right time. I knew I wanted a Gibson Flying V, Dual Rec half stack and a 2x12 rectifier cab. So my hunt began...

My Price
Gibson Flying V = $750*
Dual Rec+4x12 = $1100
2x12 Rect cab = $325*
Total = $2175
*Tax = $72.56
Grand total $2247.56

Retail
Gibson Flying V = $1100
Dual Rec+4x12 = $2598
2x12 Rect cab = $589
Total = $4287
*Tax = $289.37
Grand total $4576.37

Difference = $2328.81

That's a lot of figures to throw at you but I wanted to show, in real term dollar figures, the savings you can get if you take your time and look for used gear. I spent about 6 months aquiring this gear. Fortunately over the years I had aqcuired other gear that I sold to offset some of the above costs.

I suggest you establish what your budget is, find the amp you are interested in, and find a guitar that you are interested in. There is danger buying used gear as tube amps are finicky and not all people treat them well or know what not to do with them. But I will tell you I've learned more since January about tube amps and had more fun looking and acquiring gear than I have since I started playing guitar as a teenager.

Good luck and keep us informed. This board is excellent for questions and advice. Just be advised that tone is subjective. It's important that you find the amp that fits what you are playing and what you want to get out of it.
 
Nobody on this forum will disagree with the fact that tubes sound better than SS, and I wouldn't want to tell someone to get something they don't want.
So, following clutch71's post: I got my Dual Rec Tremoverb w/ a 212 rectifier cab, a Hot Plate and top line speaker cables as a package on the bay just a month or so ago. The TOV had been retubed along with other servicing by Mesa less than a year ago and had less than a ten hours on it since. Clean as a whistle, no dust anywhere in it, probably never left the house. ( Didn't chime in to buy a DR TOV earlier, but if you see one on ebay at a good price, buy it...you'll probably love it, too)
Total price: with shipping was $1,250.

So shop around, buying used is a very good way to go. In fact I've also bought other high quality gear used, including Eden amps and cabs (for bass), my LP, a couple of PV Cirrus basses and an EB Musicman come to mind, but lots more.

My suggestion is just don't leave a big hole in your gear...end up with a guitar/amp that gives you some pleasure. As I mentioned earlier, the hot plate works well enough if you pull a couple of 6L6's and a Rec tube. You can play in a house if no one is super picky about the sound, but I would say that an apartment would not work...nobody's gonna cut you that much slack! :wink:
 
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