60/100 vs simul-class (what's your favorite? )

[HelpingFriendly]

Would like to hear your thoughts on this. Mainly the clean channel because that's where I live 90% of the time. In reference to the MK III but would also love to hear about the differences in the MK II as well. Pros/Cons? Difference in tone and feel? Anyone own both? Audio clips?

The reason I ask is because as i stated i play clean most of the time and I'm about to send my Mk iii purple ( simul-class ) to Mike B for some maintenance. I debating if I should request to mod it to 60/100. I feel I would dig the extra headroom for what I play. Anyone have experience with both?

 

[Markedman]

I have a Simul-class blue stripe and a 60/100 black dot. Completely different sounding amps, both in clean and crunch. The blue is definitely smoother, refined and more modern sounding. The clean channel rarely gets used on this amp, I use this amp for metal music where I want that sound. The radical GEQ setting I use makes the clean channel sound crappy so I just turn the volume down on my guitar for clean passages. Every once in a while I'll turn it to class A and then wonder why it feels like I'm either suffocating or driving a 4 cylinder engine no matter what the volume, very unsettling to me, frigging nightmare that class A. The black dot is very raw and uncompressed in comparison. I love the clean channel and the gain channel really sounds good for hard rock and heavy blues. I can also put a smily-face GEQ on it or a stomp box and it can pass for modern metal if I need to. I do use the amp on 60 watts half the time, it doesn't seem to zapped the life out of it like class A does on the simul-class, there's just less volume, slightly less. The best Mesa clean I ever had was my Mark llB, way better than my Mark lV which had great clean. Tubes have more of an influence with the type of tone you want no matter the amp choice, much more so. All said, my black dot is the best amp I have ever owned, period

 

[HelpingFriendly]

Thanks for the reply man! Would you say you black dot could get close to the smoothness of the simul with some eq tweaking? So for clean you say the 60/100 is superior. Good to know. Would love to hear other comments or better yet an a'b audio clip with the same settings on R1!

I'm really debating to have mike swap trannies so I can enjoy a cleaner r1. (60/100) it just seams everone favors simul-class?

 

[Markedman]

I can do the side by side comparison for you today using matching cabinets.

 

[Elpelotero]

With so many affordable Mark 3's out in the market, why would you waste time and money having it modded? I personally would just buy a 60/100, compare the two, and sell the one you don't like to recoup your money.

 

[HelpingFriendly]

I can do the side by side comparison for you today using matching cabinets.

That would be awesome! I look forward to it! Thanks!

 

[HelpingFriendly]

With so many affordable Mark 3's out in the market, why would you waste time and money having it modded? I personally would just buy a 60/100, compare the two, and sell the one you don't like to recoup your money.

Believe me dude I have put A ton of thought in to your suggestion but here's the thing: I can't afford to put out about $1000 on a 60/100 right now. I don't have the money. It would be a great luxury to shoot out both amps and pick the winner. But I'm on a budget. Also the simul I have now "needs" a tune up and I can't sell an amp with out making sure it's 100%. I technically could, but I would not get a decent price for it. All that said, I figured mike b could save the day for a fraction of the cost of a new mk3

 

[HelpingFriendly]

I can do the side by side comparison for you today using matching cabinets.

Any luck on the clip? I'm super stoked to hear it

 

[Elpelotero]

If that's the case, go on craigslist, find someone selling a Mark 3 locally, and go test the amp. Doesn't mean you have to buy it :wink:

 

[psychodave]

With so many affordable Mark 3's out in the market, why would you waste time and money having it modded? I personally would just buy a 60/100, compare the two, and sell the one you don't like to recoup your money.

Believe me dude I have put A ton of thought in to your suggestion but here's the thing: I can't afford to put out about $1000 on a 60/100 right now. I don't have the money. It would be a great luxury to shoot out both amps and pick the winner. But I'm on a budget. Also the simul I have now "needs" a tune up and I can't sell an amp with out making sure it's 100%. I technically could, but I would not get a decent price for it. All that said, I figured mike b could save the day for a fraction of the cost of a new mk3

What did Mike say the cost would be?

I doubt he will even do it...

 

[RR]

You say you play 90% of the time on the clean channel so are you looking for "headroom" clean?

Turning a simul-class to standard class A/B (60/100) is major work perhaps $300 in labor I'm guessing[?]

If that's the case like many post hear, check out a 60/100 watt Mark II or III on Craiglist then decide. Then decided what to do ( e.g. sell your Simul-Class if you prefer 60/100). Yes timing is everything (find a 60/100 Booige on CL and hopefully your simul-class sells before that CL 60/100 Boogie is bought).

Yes I know you have a budget but amp mod is costly too. Good luck.


note: I have Mark IIB and that has miles of clean headroom.

 

[Markedman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUXYDNFfRcY Here is a quick comparison of two Mark lll amps into matching Boogafunk EV thiele cabinets. The Blue stripe short head is actually a cut down combo (so ugly, I got it super cheap, the Mesa stickered EV is in a box) has an old General electric ax7 in V1 with Mesa 420 6L6 & =C= el34 power tubes, all with about 20 hours on them and the Black dot 60/100 has an amperex bugle boy in V1 and and quad of =C= 6L6 tubes that have 100 or so hours on them. I am using a Fender MIM stratocaster with active EMG's with the selector switch set between the neck and middle pick-ups going straight in to the amps. The settings are from the Mark lll manual clean samples for country then jazz and lastly, the blues. Master volume is at 2 for everything, no reverb, GEQ switched off.
Very boring Production taken on my iPhone.

 

[HelpingFriendly]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUXYDNFfRcY Here is a quick comparison of two Mark lll amps into matching Boogafunk EV thiele cabinets. The Blue stripe short head is actually a cut down combo (so ugly, I got it super cheap, the Mesa stickered EV is in a box) has an old General electric ax7 in V1 with Mesa 420 6L6 & =C= el34 power tubes, all with about 20 hours on them and the Black dot 60/100 has an amperex bugle boy in V1 and and quad of =C= 6L6 tubes that have 100 or so hours on them. I am using a Fender MIM stratocaster with active EMG's with the selector switch set between the neck and middle pick-ups going straight in to the amps. The settings are from the Mark lll manual clean samples for country then jazz and lastly, the blues. Master volume is at 2 for everything, no reverb, GEQ switched off.
Very boring Production taken on my iPhone.

I just finished listening to the shootout! Extremely cool on your part for posting this! This is the only comparison on the web (60/100 vs simul-class) . I went back and forth between strums and even though they are very close I "do" hear a different vibe between the two. On the clean settings the black dot had a hint more openness as well as clarity and string definition. The simul sounds a tad rounder and just like my purple stripe. They are both obviously incredibly awesome amps and very similar sounding. But if you have a good ear you should be able to hear a change. I did. I'm sure in person the differences are even more noticeable. Thank you for posting this. It really helped my curiosity. For what I play I think I'm a 60/100 guy now after hearing this!

 

[Markedman]

I'm glad you liked it, the iPhone isn't exactly an accurate audio sample. Tons of compression at that volume, if it wasn't so frigging cold out here in Connecticut I'd take the video outdoors. I'll do that next week when it warms up a little comparing a Marshall 4X12 cabinet with Celestion speakers and a Mesa 4X12 with EV speakers. That will be ten times better. I'll figure out how to edit, it can't be that hard. Again, the difference in tone in person is startling compared to the audio in this video and I was using the sample settings which is not anything I would personally use, but I had to start somewhere. Although the black is warmer and much more complex in overtones when playing clean, you can see in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKWKSOePu2A the lead channel is tighter in the blue.

 

[chipaudette]

Regarding the hypothetical mod to turn a Simul-Class into a 60/100...

To go the other way -- to turn a 60/100 into a Simul-Class -- they have to put in a new output transformer. I can only presume that to go from Simul to 60/100 they'd also need to swap the transformer. That's not cheap. You also won't get the correct Mark III 60/100 transformer, as I assume they don't have any more. I'm not sure what transformer they'd put in there, as the Mark IV and Mark V are both Simul.

So, I'm with the other folks suggestion that you not mod your amp to be a 60/100. It's not a trivial mod, and because of the transformer swap, it'll be expensive and not really a Mark III anymore.

But, I'm also of the opinion that it's your money and your own experience in this world...so rock on with whatever it is that you want to do. You got the power, man. Have fun!

Chip

 

[Markedman]

I just posted a thread with video links in the mark section with the mark lll's and a studio pre-amp/295 set-up playing outdoors.

 

[GuitarPlayer]

I have an original mark IIc++ with Simul class and to me clean sounds are awesome both ways. The only difference I noticed is that in class A
cleans break up sooner when turning the volume up where the crunch in full power just punches my chest even harder. Its an awesome amp. I have a 60W mark IIc coming in tomorrow and I wanna finally compare a IIc+ up against. I've always wanted to do that. Both have geq so I'll be able to compare crunch sound pushed with geq as well. If the c+ proves to be that much better I'll be sending the later for a mod. I just wish Mike B would tell me he can put and extra pair of pair tubes and mod it to simul class as well cause I looked at the board and the room is there.

 

[GuitarPlayer]

Regarding the hypothetical mod to turn a Simul-Class into a 60/100...

To go the other way -- to turn a 60/100 into a Simul-Class -- they have to put in a new output transformer. I can only presume that to go from Simul to 60/100 they'd also need to swap the transformer. That's not cheap. You also won't get the correct Mark III 60/100 transformer, as I assume they don't have any more. I'm not sure what transformer they'd put in there, as the Mark IV and Mark V are both Simul.
The Mark V isn't simul-class. I wish it was and then maybe I would've kept it
So, I'm with the other folks suggestion that you not mod your amp to be a 60/100. It's not a trivial mod, and because of the transformer swap, it'll be expensive and not really a Mark III anymore.

But, I'm also of the opinion that it's your money and your own experience in this world...so rock on with whatever it is that you want to do. You got the power, man. Have fun!

Chip