adamdesoto
Well-known member
are you only concerned with sheer volume? it seems to me theres other factors involved in getting a 100 vs 50 watt amp other than sheer volume.
50 watt vs. 100 watt volume difference
- Thread starter adamdesoto
- Start date
Help Support The Boogie Board:
count_chocolat
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2006
- Messages
- 65
- Reaction score
- 0
Here's the deal, if you crank a single and a dual recto(both to 10) and A/B them. You will not be able hear anything beyond that point!!! :shock:
I currently own a Rectoverb and a Stiletto Ace and I cannot imagine anyone needing more power!!! I have played one corporate gig not miked and my sound was much too focused, never again. With an SM57 in front of the Cab I have to use a hotplate to tame either one to keep the stage volume reasonable.
If you aint cutting through with that amount of power, then you got a mix issue!
I currently own a Rectoverb and a Stiletto Ace and I cannot imagine anyone needing more power!!! I have played one corporate gig not miked and my sound was much too focused, never again. With an SM57 in front of the Cab I have to use a hotplate to tame either one to keep the stage volume reasonable.
If you aint cutting through with that amount of power, then you got a mix issue!
Surfcaster
Well-known member
You also have to enter speaker efficiency into the loudness equation. For example, looking at Celestions, a G12T75 has an efficiency rating of 98 dB, Vintage 30s are 100 dB and Greenbacks are 97 dB. The higher the effiiciency rating, the louder the speaker.
For an easy example, a 50W amp played through Vintage 30s will sound as loud as a 100W amp played through Greenbacks...the 3dB of greater efficiency of the Vintage 30s in the first case is equal to the 3 dB more volume you get from the extra 50W in the second.
If you are using different speaker cabs with your JCM800 and JCM2000, this might have something to do with the volume difference you notice between them. And of course it applies to any comparison of volume between different rigs.
BTW, there's a great article on this on Celestion's website.
For an easy example, a 50W amp played through Vintage 30s will sound as loud as a 100W amp played through Greenbacks...the 3dB of greater efficiency of the Vintage 30s in the first case is equal to the 3 dB more volume you get from the extra 50W in the second.
If you are using different speaker cabs with your JCM800 and JCM2000, this might have something to do with the volume difference you notice between them. And of course it applies to any comparison of volume between different rigs.
BTW, there's a great article on this on Celestion's website.
dylan7620
Well-known member
rabies said:
This is where some people get comfused by the quote that "tube amps are louder" or tube watts are more. WRONG! watts are watts. the same 100 watts that go through your 100w mesa go through a 100 watt line 6 as well.
All amps are rated at the're clipping stage. (where the power amp begins to distort) the difference is that a solid state amp when it clips sounds really bad (think of that old peavey rage 15 watter that you use to try and crank) but a tube amp, when it clips it does so with a very smooth musical overdrive that helps accent the premp tones to become a very beautiful thing.
However, the clipping points does not mean 10 on the volume knob. In fact, if you run a 50 watt amp at full volume you are probably putting something more around 80 or even 90 watts through it. try that with an SS amp and i'm sure you'll get some funny looks.
This is another reason why SS amp makers put out 300 watt amps. So that the power amp remains clean while trying to compete with the other guys triple recto thats well past its clipping point and pushing over 200 watts.
dylan7620
Well-known member
rabies said:
mesa likes to be pretty conservative on their power ratings. thus why they "sound louder" that other amps the same rating. i used my 45watt nomad with another guys 100 watt soldano and help up very well, same with his 120 watt 5150.
MaxBoogie
Well-known member
Just to clarify on the physics part of the question, doubling the power results in a 3db gain, no matter how you look at it. And believe me, unless you're Pete Townsend, you can hear a 3db increase.
However, if you're comparing apples and oranges, or different amps, with different speakers (with different efficiencies ie. how effective they are at translating the incoming power into movable air), etc. there's no way to compare them accurately. You COULD get yourself a db meter and at least compare the final output level and make a comparison based on that.
However, if you're comparing apples and oranges, or different amps, with different speakers (with different efficiencies ie. how effective they are at translating the incoming power into movable air), etc. there's no way to compare them accurately. You COULD get yourself a db meter and at least compare the final output level and make a comparison based on that.
Now that someone brought this topic up maybe you guys can help me out.
Im joining a Pink Floyd tribute band.
We will be playing in small pubs/clubs and probably some outdoor gigs. Nothing big right now since we are just starting.
I need the amp just for clean sounds. I don't plan on pushing the tubes much to get overdrive from the amp. I will be using pedals for that. I just need tons of clean headroom.
I plan on getting a Hiwatt.
My concern with the DR103 (100 watts) is that it might be to powerful for small size clubs? I could also get the 50 watts version but it will break up sooner.
Please let me know what you think and what you would do in my case.
Im joining a Pink Floyd tribute band.
We will be playing in small pubs/clubs and probably some outdoor gigs. Nothing big right now since we are just starting.
I need the amp just for clean sounds. I don't plan on pushing the tubes much to get overdrive from the amp. I will be using pedals for that. I just need tons of clean headroom.
I plan on getting a Hiwatt.
My concern with the DR103 (100 watts) is that it might be to powerful for small size clubs? I could also get the 50 watts version but it will break up sooner.
Please let me know what you think and what you would do in my case.
If you switch from 50 to 100 watts, you will not notice much difference.
What you will notice is the fact that with a 100 watt amp running at 50 watts, there is a huge difference in Headroom. You will also notice a lot of upper harmonics added in the 100 watt mode.
If you place a 50 watt amp and a 100 watt Rectifier amp side by side and set the knobs exactly the same, there will still be a noticable difference in headroom on the Clean channel, but you may or may not notice a difference in harmonics and tone. This is because the Output Transformers will both be being used the way they were designed to, and with the proper load.
You may also notice that a 50 watt amp, with a really loud drummer, might not keep up.
I was in a band for a few years and used an Ampeg Lee Jackson head, the VL502. It was an incredible amp, but the drummer had 2 28" Ludwig Bass Drums. I could not compete and he had no control.
I was using a 2x12 Ampeg w/Vintage 30's & a Marshall 1960 cab with 2 Lead 80's & 2 Vintage 30's.
Once it was turned up to about 7, the tone got really mushy, no matter where the Gain and Tone knobs were set.
I could never get a good clean tone once he started playing either.
If I had had a 100 watt head, it would have kept up very easily.
As for the "Mix," we were too poor to own a great PA, but people moshed their asses off to us.
I've played in bands where the drummer had so much control that you could hold a conversation while he was playing, a DC-2 did me just fine. I have also been in bands where a Dual Rectifier was barely heard.
The difference between the Marshall amps is the amount of Preamp Gain. The TSL with the Gain turned almost all the way down would be close to the same output of the JCM with the Gain all the way up.
What you will notice is the fact that with a 100 watt amp running at 50 watts, there is a huge difference in Headroom. You will also notice a lot of upper harmonics added in the 100 watt mode.
If you place a 50 watt amp and a 100 watt Rectifier amp side by side and set the knobs exactly the same, there will still be a noticable difference in headroom on the Clean channel, but you may or may not notice a difference in harmonics and tone. This is because the Output Transformers will both be being used the way they were designed to, and with the proper load.
You may also notice that a 50 watt amp, with a really loud drummer, might not keep up.
I was in a band for a few years and used an Ampeg Lee Jackson head, the VL502. It was an incredible amp, but the drummer had 2 28" Ludwig Bass Drums. I could not compete and he had no control.
I was using a 2x12 Ampeg w/Vintage 30's & a Marshall 1960 cab with 2 Lead 80's & 2 Vintage 30's.
Once it was turned up to about 7, the tone got really mushy, no matter where the Gain and Tone knobs were set.
I could never get a good clean tone once he started playing either.
If I had had a 100 watt head, it would have kept up very easily.
As for the "Mix," we were too poor to own a great PA, but people moshed their asses off to us.
I've played in bands where the drummer had so much control that you could hold a conversation while he was playing, a DC-2 did me just fine. I have also been in bands where a Dual Rectifier was barely heard.
The difference between the Marshall amps is the amount of Preamp Gain. The TSL with the Gain turned almost all the way down would be close to the same output of the JCM with the Gain all the way up.
cellardweller
Well-known member
Our bass player plays something like a 350 watt (@4 ohms) ampeg, and our drummer is NOT known for control~nevertheless I've had NO problem being heard using my Single recto head, and I've not had to dime anything either.
JPIndustrie
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2006
- Messages
- 138
- Reaction score
- 0
Based on my experience with both 50 Watt and 100 Watt amps in a band setting, there is no difference in volume, as in sound level between the two.
However, I very much prefer 100 Watt vs 50 Watt, simply because I noticed I 'cut through' more, and my distortion sounded 'cleaner' and much more defined. I suppose that is the definition of headroom.
However, I very much prefer 100 Watt vs 50 Watt, simply because I noticed I 'cut through' more, and my distortion sounded 'cleaner' and much more defined. I suppose that is the definition of headroom.
He said "Head."Headroom is everything if you are not micing your guitar and you play large venues.
We used to play a lot of outdoor events and that is why I finally got a Dual Rectifier. The VL502 was a great amp, but they had stopped making them, so I couldn't find a 100 watt version. Lucky for me, it made me find a Mesa instead.
dylan7620 said:
Also remember when a solid state device clips... it Hard Clips!!... meaning it cuts off the power sharply. A tube will still remain somewhat linear and continue to output more power. This is why you don't use a 100 watt cab on a 100 watt amp. It can be hard on the speakers because of the extra power the tubes can produce, because they don't clip as sharply.
The only reason to go to go to a 100watt amp from a 50watt amp is for more clean headroom. I run all my heavy distortion channels on 50watts and my cleans on 100watts on my RKII.
I'm not sure how they rate tubes amps... if they are RMS (sort of an average power output measure... to put it in laymens terms) or if they rate them by peak power output. I'm assuming its RMS. Most home theater systems and boom boxes are rated peak.
JPIndustrie
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2006
- Messages
- 138
- Reaction score
- 0
I really think, if you're just deciding between a 100W vs. 50W is to play identical amps (like for example, try to play a single recto side by side with a dual recto) in 100W and 50W configurations.
I really don't feel that 100W is 'better' than 50 W, I think it comes down to personal preference. We live in a guitar-playing age that even a 15W handwired boutique tube amp could be brought to a gig and mic'ed adequately as to be heard in any modern club. So in reality, it really comes down to personal preference.
100 watts will NOT sound louder than 50 Watts. However, I do believe 100 Watts will play differently than 50 watts. Play as in feel, harmonic and frequency content, settings, etc.
Myself, I prefer the increased headroom, or 'spacey-ness' of the sound of my Dual Recto, vs, IMO the dirtier, more saturated sound of the Single Recto. I like the way every string rings out when I play a chord, and I love the way, IMO while soloing, the notes seem to sing rather than scream in the single recto.
Again, it all comes down to personal preference. However I don't feel 100 watts is 'better' than 50 watts.
I really don't feel that 100W is 'better' than 50 W, I think it comes down to personal preference. We live in a guitar-playing age that even a 15W handwired boutique tube amp could be brought to a gig and mic'ed adequately as to be heard in any modern club. So in reality, it really comes down to personal preference.
100 watts will NOT sound louder than 50 Watts. However, I do believe 100 Watts will play differently than 50 watts. Play as in feel, harmonic and frequency content, settings, etc.
Myself, I prefer the increased headroom, or 'spacey-ness' of the sound of my Dual Recto, vs, IMO the dirtier, more saturated sound of the Single Recto. I like the way every string rings out when I play a chord, and I love the way, IMO while soloing, the notes seem to sing rather than scream in the single recto.
Again, it all comes down to personal preference. However I don't feel 100 watts is 'better' than 50 watts.
I have a 50 watt Soldano Lucky 13 that I absolutely love. I wouldn't trade it for the world.
On the other hand, I have never played through a 100 watt version of the same amp.
I haven't gigged in about 8 years and really don't plan on starting to anytime soon, but if I did, I would buy a much better PA than I could afford back then. That way I could use a DC-3 or Studio 22+ instead and not have to bring 2 half stacks like I used to.
I really do love the "Feel," of a 100 watt 1/2 stack that is fully cranked though.
On the other hand, I have never played through a 100 watt version of the same amp.
I haven't gigged in about 8 years and really don't plan on starting to anytime soon, but if I did, I would buy a much better PA than I could afford back then. That way I could use a DC-3 or Studio 22+ instead and not have to bring 2 half stacks like I used to.
I really do love the "Feel," of a 100 watt 1/2 stack that is fully cranked though.
100 watts is about 3% louder then a 50 watt. Thats pretty much the difference besides the headroom.
When I'm shopping for an amp I just look for the best deal, 100 or 50, because in the long run its not enough difference to matter in my decision.
Certain amps are louder then others though at certain watts. For instance, my Traynor blue was not near as loud as my JCM800 and they were both 50 watts.
Supposedly Marshall and most British made amp companies only rate there amps at average wattage and they can as much as double when cranked.
When I'm shopping for an amp I just look for the best deal, 100 or 50, because in the long run its not enough difference to matter in my decision.
Certain amps are louder then others though at certain watts. For instance, my Traynor blue was not near as loud as my JCM800 and they were both 50 watts.
Supposedly Marshall and most British made amp companies only rate there amps at average wattage and they can as much as double when cranked.
cellardweller
Well-known member
I opened a thread at one of my other favorite haunts, Homerecording.com, where some seemingly contradictory thoughts have been put forward in regards to the present conversation....
Here is a link
http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=229313
Here is a link
http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=229313
Because they can
A
Anonymous
Guest
Post removed.
I play out of a 4x12 with 100 head (now 150 watt) except very small clubs, when I use a Stiletto Ace combo. I use a stiletto trident and standard cab mostly because the sound and feel, not the shear volume. I like the way those 4 speakers pushing air feel. I played a 2x12 combo for a long time after my 1x12 .50 cal started sounding weak in some rooms. I learned that the reason most top pros play out of 4x12 cabs. It's not about the volume. My 50 watt Ace sounds INCREDIBLE, but it lacks the brilliant full clarity of my Trident through a 4x12 in big halls, so I jam and practice with the ACE, but bring out the Trident when I want to be at my best. Yes, miking the amp-blah, blah, blah...a 4x12 cab and 100+watt head sounds better to me, not just louder.
dstefani
Well-known member
The Allman Brothers were a good example of 100watt vs 50watt.
In this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0tAgAhbzRs
Duane plays a 50 watt Marshall to get a more saturated tone, where Dicky Betts plays a 100watt Marshall. You can hear the difference between the two.
Now I hope I have my facts straight, I got this from reading something online about this topic. The guitars also make a difference, the SG is going to be a bit grittier than the LP.
Either way it's a way cool jam!
- dstefani
In this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0tAgAhbzRs
Duane plays a 50 watt Marshall to get a more saturated tone, where Dicky Betts plays a 100watt Marshall. You can hear the difference between the two.
Now I hope I have my facts straight, I got this from reading something online about this topic. The guitars also make a difference, the SG is going to be a bit grittier than the LP.
Either way it's a way cool jam!
- dstefani
Similar threads
