Will Mark V Drive Down the prices of Mark I, II, III and IV?

[EleventhHour2139]

The market's down 20-30% across the board. It's the economy, stupid.
I've never seen so many IIC+s on eBay and elsewhere.
Good news is, it's a great time to buy!

Actually you are completely wrong :roll: , go check Mark III from one year ago (hint: same as today). As I see it, the demand for 2c+ was peaking at the same time the economy peaked, setting itself up for a price drop. What I am getting at here is basically the relation between normal goods (2c+) vs inferior goods (mark III). :lol:

Do you own a Mark III? I'm curious as to what you consider it inferior to? Sounds like a blind man critiquing the Mona Lisa, to me... :roll:

 

[glawk]

The market's down 20-30% across the board. It's the economy, stupid.
I've never seen so many IIC+s on eBay and elsewhere.
Good news is, it's a great time to buy!

Actually you are completely wrong :roll: , go check Mark III from one year ago (hint: same as today). As I see it, the demand for 2c+ was peaking at the same time the economy peaked, setting itself up for a price drop. What I am getting at here is basically the relation between normal goods (2c+) vs inferior goods (mark III). :lol:

Do you own a Mark III? I'm curious as to what you consider it inferior to? Sounds like a blind man critiquing the Mona Lisa, to me... :roll:

I have owned and sold a mark III...though I don't see the relevance to my post?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferior_good

 

[EleventhHour2139]

I have owned and sold a mark III...though I don't see the relevance to my post?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferior_good

Hmm, interesting article. So since you would consider the IIC+ "superior," I don't suppose it would be too much trouble to ask you to quantify, objectively of course, why in fact it is "superior?"

 

[glawk]

income falls and demand for C+ falls (normal good)

Whether or not it is right to define the amps like this up for discussion, I was just offering my insight on what it looks like is happening to me. When you think about it, the mark III is a good cheap alternative to the 2c+ if you are low on income. Much the same way kraft dinner is a low income substitute for fresh pasta with lobster.

 

[EleventhHour2139]

income falls and demand for C+ falls (normal good)

I'll call this "dodging the question/an incomplete answer" and let it be...

Whether or not it is right to define the amps like this up for discussion, I was just offering my insight on what it looks like is happening to me. When you think about it, the mark III is a good cheap alternative to the 2c+ if you are low on income. Much the same way kraft dinner is a low income substitute for fresh pasta with lobster.

There is a healthy amount of error in that logic. Tone (as well as taste) is a matter of opinion. My point is this: there is no factual, objective way to state that one amp (or food, for that matter) is "better" than another. After all, the only basis we have for any conclusion formed from our subjective experiences is our own opinion. So, lesson to take home here is that just because one amp may be in "higher demand" and thus more expensive than another does NOT in any way prove that particular amp to be superior to any other. Any attempt to use user demand (when user demand is in principle based upon opinion, at least as far as amps are concerned) as a basis for an argument of superiority between two amps is a fallacy.

 

[glawk]

Nowhere was i making any reference to the sound quality of the amp (nothing about what I said is subjective). I think you missed the point...what I am referring to is market reaction due to income levels and demand. Don't get hung up on the terminology...when I say "inferior good" it is only a classification based on demand and income.

 

[MrMarkIII]

That Wikipedia article has no references or sources, so must be taken for what it's worth - opinion, nothing more.
Second, the article is really talking about common consumer goods, like mac 'n' cheese. A Kraft dinner is not a cheap alternative to a lobster dinner. It's the more expensive alternative to the generic store brand. Likewise, you can get lobster at Sizzler.
Apples and oranges.
Mesa amps are not common consumer goods.
Everyone knows the difference between the cheap mac 'n' cheese and the "expensive" brand name stuff.
Very, very few people have any experience owning enough models of Mesas to have any opinion worth a listen.
The point being that much of the perceived value of Mesas of any model is mostly due to word of mouth. Of a relatively small population.
You can't say that about Shasta vs. Coca Cola. I don't need someone else's opinion. I know which is better. Everybody does.
Further, by what "voodoo" does the IIC+ "set itself" up for a price drop? Nonsense. Price is determined by the marketplace; magic mojo, hype, or whatever notwithstanding.
People need money in this bad economy more than they need amps, so there are more IIC+s on the market (as well as Mark Is, IIs, IIIs, etc.).
Prices are going down simply because the supply is increasing.
"Inferior/superior goods" is sophistry, if for no other reason than these amps are all luxury goods.
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. :lol:

 

[glawk]

That Wikipedia article has no references or sources, so must be taken for what it's worth - opinion, nothing more.
Second, the article is really talking about common consumer goods, like mac 'n' cheese. A Kraft dinner is not a cheap alternative to a lobster dinner. It's the more expensive alternative to the generic store brand. Likewise, you can get lobster at Sizzler.
Apples and oranges.
Mesa amps are not common consumer goods.
Everyone knows the difference between the cheap mac 'n' cheese and the "expensive" brand name stuff.
Very, very few people have any experience owning enough models of Mesas to have any opinion worth a listen.
The point being that much of the perceived value of Mesas of any model is mostly due to word of mouth. Of a relatively small population.
You can't say that about Shasta vs. Coca Cola. I don't need someone else's opinion. I know which is better. Everybody does.
Further, by what "voodoo" does the IIC+ "set itself" up for a price drop? Nonsense. Price is determined by the marketplace; magic mojo, hype, or whatever notwithstanding.
People need money in this bad economy more than they need amps, so there are more IIC+s on the market (as well as Mark Is, IIs, IIIs, etc.).
Prices are going down simply because the supply is increasing.
"Inferior/superior goods" is sophistry, if for no other reason than these amps are all luxury goods.
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. :lol:

Ok... clearly you are just being obstinate. I stated fresh PASTA with lobster to make it easier to differentiate between the two. I supposed I could have told you the brand...but I am not sure why you choose to psychoanalyze moot points here. They are related to my post only, not the original question.

This is basic economic theory, regardless the provided wikipedia link (out of convenience). There are countless places (try a book maybe) you could find the exact same information.

I have owned a mark III, two Mark II C+, two triaxis on different occasions, a dc-5, and a studio .22. I currently have no mesa for sale, and do not own any mesas right now (there is no ulterior motive here).

You disagree with what have posted...but your reason is one of the fundamental parts of consumer theory. Sure if you generalize amplifiers they may be considered normal goods (you way want to redefine your knowledge of what a luxury is btw), but if you have watched the market closely the past few years you would have seen what I am describing.

Anyway my original point was distorted after all these inquisitions. Everything is not down 20-30% across the board. In fact, whether or not the inferior/normal good classification applies to the amplifiers is up for discussion, the fact is that there are many products/industries/firms that do much better economically when times are tough. To simply state 20-30% is just ignorant...

***In relation to the original question:
The mark III has had a steady price, while the 2c+ has falled 50% or more. I have observed this not only through other peoples sales on ebay over the last couple years, but also in my own sales of two very similar 2C+ mesas. This not a prediction... it has already happened. My prediction was that the mark V might have a "perceived" effect on 2c+ price. In reality, if the price of the 2c+ falls further I would say that it has very little to do with the V and more to do with the other points I have mentioned.

 

[scottcrud]

I sure hope so! I'd like to have a stockpile of MKIII's!

 

[EleventhHour2139]

You disagree with what have posted...but your reason is one of the fundamental parts of consumer theory. Sure if you generalize amplifiers they may be considered normal goods (you way want to redefine your knowledge of what a luxury is btw), but if you have watched the market closely the past few years you would have seen what I am describing.

Perhaps YOU should find time to peruse those economy books. MrMarkIII was indeed correct in defining amplifiers as a luxury good. There are more amps for sale now than in years past when income was higher. How many ads do you see on the board, on ebay, craigslist etc. stating that people are selling their amps due to loss/lack of income, can no longer afford their lifestyle etc? Many, indeed quite a good deal more than when times were better. This is the very definition of a luxury item! More are bought when income is flowing, and less are bought as income is depleted, thus the current market saturation. And hopefully you've noticed that market is absolutely saturated with all matter of amps, including IIC+'s, relative to the numbers being sold a few years back. 3-4 thousand dollars is no longer a "bargain" for one, in fact most are selling at (barely) above 2 thousand, when and if they sell. The fact that Mark III prices haven't fallen is by no means evidence that the market hasn't shifted a goood amount below its previous levels, as it seems apparent that the III has nearly bottomed out in the market. 600-800 dollars seems to be the absolute lowest these are going for, and since they were nearly at this point prior to recession, of course they aren't going to be affected as greatly if at all.

Anyway my original point was distorted after all these inquisitions. Everything is not down 20-30% across the board. In fact, whether or not the inferior/normal good classification applies to the amplifiers is up for discussion, the fact is that there are many products/industries/firms that do much better economically when times are tough. To simply state 20-30% is just ignorant...

I'm fairly sure that was an "off the cuff guestimation." However, if products with room to fluctuate drastically (read: IIC+, as well as other items this price range and above) are any indicator, this isn't too far off, and seems to be a decent estimate.

***In relation to the original question:
The mark III has had a steady price, while the 2c+ has falled 50% or more. I have observed this not only through other peoples sales on ebay over the last couple years, but also in my own sales of two very similar 2C+ mesas. This not a prediction... it has already happened. My prediction was that the mark V might have a "perceived" effect on 2c+ price. In reality, if the price of the 2c+ falls further I would say that it has very little to do with the V and more to do with the other points I have mentioned.

Finally, we are in agreeance...sort of. I agree that if the price falls further (doubtful, but you never know), it will not be a result of the introduction of the Five.

 

[screamingdaisy]

This debate is stupid. If you like your Mark III, fine. Get over it.

 

[EleventhHour2139]

This debate is stupid. If you like your Mark III, fine. Get over it.

...so why are you reading it? The beauty of the internet is, if you don't like the discussion, then feel free to GTFO whenever you choose, no one is forcing you to read this. :roll:

 

[screamingdaisy]

...so why are you reading it?

Because it was a good thread until you decided to start arguing over semantics due to some perceived slight towards an amp you like.

The fact of the matter is that regardless of whether the Mark III is or isn't a lobster or mac and cheese won't make a lick of difference to it's resale value.

 

[glawk]

I agree we are arguing semantics here...what you didn't realize was that you are actually agreeing with me. Luxury goods are normal goods...2c+ is a normal good but probably not a luxury.

Also, looking at ebay (if we can use this as an example) I actually see more of the same in terms of volume...maybe people just don't sell their boogies unless they are pried out of their cold dead hands :twisted:

 

[EleventhHour2139]

...so why are you reading it?

Because it was a good thread until you decided to start arguing over semantics due to some perceived slight towards an amp you like.

The fact of the matter is that regardless of whether the Mark III is or isn't a lobster or mac and cheese won't make a lick of difference to it's resale value.

I could care less what its resale value is. I posted THREE times with the express intent of clarifying that in no way is the Mark III "inferior." If you don't agree, great. If you agree, great. Either way, I would hardly consider the thread now ruined. And if it is ruined for you, pm me and I'll bake you a cookie or something :wink: . I have also contributed to the primary discussion at hand, the impact of the Mark V on the values of previous Marks.

I agree we are arguing semantics here...what you didn't realize was that you are actually agreeing with me. Luxury goods are normal goods...2c+ is a normal good but probably not a luxury.

Also, looking at ebay (if we can use this as an example) I actually see more of the same in terms of volume...maybe people just don't sell their boogies unless they are pried out of their cold dead hands

Per wikipedia due to ease of access:

Luxury good:
In economics, a luxury good is a good for which demand increases more than proportionally as income rises, in contrast to a "necessity good", for which demand increases less than proportionally as income rises.

Luxury goods are said to have high income elasticity of demand: as people become wealthier, they will buy more and more of the luxury good. This also means, however, that should there be a decline in income its demand will drop. Income elasticity of demand is not constant with respect to income, and may change sign at different levels of income. That is to say, a luxury good may become a normal good or even an inferior good at different income levels, e.g. a wealthy person stops buying increasing numbers of luxury cars for his automobile collection to start collecting airplanes (at such an income level, the luxury car would become an inferior good).


For the majority of Americans (which would largely consist of the middle class), the IIC+ would be considered a Luxury good. Demand has dropped due to the fact that nobody has $3k to burn on an amp anymore, thus the price drop we see today. I can see how you would consider the IIC+ a Normal good, but upon closer inspection it more fully fits the niche of Luxury good.

 

[GIG4FUN]

Does anyone think the new Mark V will have an impact on the market for older Mark series amps?
I believe that no matter how good the mark V sounds, that the Mark IIC+ will always be sought after and thus
remain expensive to buy. A local guitar shop owner in NH seems to think that the Mark V will create less demand for Mark I, II, III and IV and thus the prices of those amps will decline. opinions?

no

 

[spacin007]

I think some amps will come up for sale in order to fund the Mk V...

Right now there seems to be more IV's and IIC+'s on the market. This will die off soon though.

Could be the economy or people want the new gear and need to sell off the amps they haven't used in a while.

 

[dodger916]

Does anyone think the new Mark V will have an impact on the market for older Mark series amps?
I believe that no matter how good the mark V sounds, that the Mark IIC+ will always be sought after and thus
remain expensive to buy. A local guitar shop owner in NH seems to think that the Mark V will create less demand for Mark I, II, III and IV and thus the prices of those amps will decline. opinions?

no

+1. It might affect the Mark IV price, but I doubt it will hurt the C+ price in the long run.

 

[MetalMatt]

DIE THREAD! DIE! :twisted: :lol:

 

[GIG4FUN]

DIE THREAD! DIE! :twisted: :lol:

+1 (bump LOL)

I think the ones with money will buy the Mark V and find out what it is... (who really knows) and the ones with brains will keep and buy more Mark IIC+ amps. That's my view on it all...
The Mark IIC+ is proven nectar, as long as humans have ears, they'll love it.