Why do some sound icepicky and some sound thick? Bias??

[blaren]

I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around this non adjustable fixed bias nonsense.
I mean it isn't nonsense, it's an ingenious way to sell tubes and ensure cold bias, powersection cleanliness, and no "strain" on anything causing warranty returns and stuff.
Coming from a vintage amp background (mostly Marshall), the majority of Mesa users are not modders or carers(?) of bias etc.
When Marshall guys feel an amp is too bright, a lot of us will swap or remove the bright cap, try different bottles, different bias...you know...get their hands dirty so to speak. I don't know if or what Mesa uses for a bright cap (on the vol pot or it's "place" on a pcb), I'm new here and haven't read every post yet but I see nothing about the brightcap.
Trying different powertubes...well vintage powertubes isn't a good idea. It would be a crapshoot without being able to see or adjust the bias. Similar to piñata dart playing where you put a blindfold on, spin yourself around 4 or 5 times and start chucking darts hoping to hit the bullseye. Good luck even hitting the BOARD!
Anyway...
I read SO many Stiletto threads where people complain about their harsh icepicky high end while others find them fat, thick and crunchy. You'll even discover instances where people will testdrive many Stilettos before finding one that sounds big and awesome.
OK so...you're Randall Smith. You order a million Sovtek EL34s. I assume you would then test and discard all the ones whos draw falls out of tolerance that will work with the stock and blanket bias resistors in the Stilettos. You'd have to assume that 1/3 would be biased warm, another third would run cold, a fraction would be just plain wrong and a few would be perfect. The Goldilocks of a match.
Since Mesas are high gain monsters with multiple cascaded gain stages that like to see a pretty clean linear (and biased very coldly), as long as they set the amps up to bias cold you'll have a wide range of "acceptably" good sounding amps but a LOT of them...or a third of them...or HALF of them or more MIGHT sound pretty thin and harsh. Of course, running crap Sovtek glass is gonna help the amp sound like **** and then plug that brittle sounding amp into a cab loaded with V30s and.... People seem surprised that the Stilettos can sound icepicky. In fact...taking everything into consideration it's hard to believe that there is even a single example that sounds awesome.
This non adj bias nonsense and keeping the powertubes running cold works great for the majority of Mesa's line because they want the 6L6 powersection to run cold, clean and linear-ly but when you're running EL34s and looking for a bit of Brit crunch (which is what the Stiletto was all about....I think?)..well you want those 34s to be running warm.

I have a feeling that the bad rep the Stilettos seem to have...that they are overly bright and piercing, can always be blamed on poor/cold bias...and of course the actual icepicks in their cabs (V30!!! I suppose it's a good speaker for high gain...tight, clean, scooped)n which probably work well with high gain monsters like a recto.

Just like a lot of vintage Marshalls sound best with the treble, middle and presence rolled back a bit and properly biased tubes...well if you're building/designing an act like a Marshall, you're probably gonna have to run it like a Marshall and that is NOT with the powertubes biased colder than Antarctica in August and plugged into a V30 made of glass.

This rant is purely the point of view of ONE vintage Marshall owner/lover. Thankfully the Stiletto Ace I got a couple weeks ago just happened to have the stars aligned and sounded great or I would not have done the deal. I was new to Mesas and didn't know about this biasbullshit method of amp building. I would have just thought....yeah I KNEW I didn't like Mesas!! I would have said NO THANKS to the awesome trade deal and I would have never known that a Mesa and I would be an item. We ARE!

Now if I could just get this forum to work as well as the Marshall one I'd be all set...and y'all would be saying...GOD...does this guy never shut UP!!?? You're probably saying that now.

Point is...I LOVE my Stiletto Ace SO much. I can't WAIT till the parts arrive to install adjustable fixed bias (oxymoron??) and I can put some actual tubes into her. WOOHOO!!! Oops...that wasn't the point of this rant...point was that...For a Mesa Stiletto to sound awesome you need a good set of EL34s (probably not sovteks though they will work too) that are PROPERLY BIASED!! As soon as Randall realizes this he will be able to stop discontinuing every Brit voiced attempt to replace it with another only to find that the Marshall purists are still finding them bright and thin.
Randall...when you're building a Marshall inspired amp, you can't expect them to sound good unless you push those 34s. They are not 6L6s and Marshalls do not have a tight clean powersection.
Just sayin.

 

[screamingdaisy]

This non adj bias nonsense and keeping the powertubes running cold works great for the majority of Mesa's line because they want the 6L6 powersection to run cold, clean and linear-ly but when you're running EL34s and looking for a bit of Brit crunch (which is what the Stiletto was all about....I think?)..well you want those 34s to be running warm.

They started doing this with the Mark V. On 6L6 mode it runs them slightly cold and on EL34 mode it runs them blazing hot.

I have a feeling that the bad rep the Stilettos seem to have...that they are overly bright and piercing, can always be blamed on poor/cold bias...and of course the actual icepicks in their cabs (V30!!! I suppose it's a good speaker for high gain...tight, clean, scooped)n which probably work well with high gain monsters like a recto.

Considering that V30s are almost all midrange without a lot of top or bottom end I'm not sure where you're coming from, but I do agree that V30s aren't the best speakers for the Stiletto. I've used my Ace through MC90s (similar to a Classic Lead 80 with some top end rolled off) and G12M-25s and both sound great. The MC90 in particular was a surprise as it added a brassy set of balls to the amps sound.

I think the problem with Mesa's OEM V30s in particular is that they're more rolled off than the standard V30s everyone else uses, which causes users to increase the treble looking for more bite/clarity, which induces harshness into the sound.

As for why people feel the sound thin, maybe they're afraid of the bass knob? I know I tried installing a set of Winged C EL34s in and they sounded thin as ****, so I quickly stuck the stock Mesa glass back in and it thickened right up.

Just like a lot of vintage Marshalls sound best with the treble, middle and presence rolled back a bit and properly biased tubes...well if you're building/designing an act like a Marshall, you're probably gonna have to run it like a Marshall and that is NOT with the powertubes biased colder than Antarctica in August and plugged into a V30 made of glass.

Like I said, I'm pretty sure they learned from their mistakes and have heated up the EL34s in their whole line.

That said, don't be surprised if you sacrifice your clean channel when you bias hot. It's one of the compromises in the 2 channel design, and getting a good clean channel is one of the reasons that Mesa has typically biased cold.

As soon as Randall realizes this he will be able to stop discontinuing every Brit voiced attempt to replace it with another only to find that the Marshall purists are still finding them bright and thin.

Nah... most now complain the replacement is too thick and bassy.

 

[blaren]

Thanks for the reply.
I've only ever tried V30s once and didn't even know the Mesa labeled ones sounded any different. The ones I tried were in an oversized Avatar (iirc) 2-12cab.
Compared to my old 1982A cab loaded with the 55hz 30watters..well I guess I shoulda expected the V30s to sound bright compared to that cab but I also played my 2-12 Marshall 1936 cab with a G12-65 and an old Emi RedCoat. Not a real dark sounding cab and the 65s do sound an awful lot like an old 25W greenback.

I just remember the cab with the V30s sounded real bright. It also had some bottom end though which is why I called them "scooped".

The bass knob...yup. I definitely have it cranked on both channels..to about 3 o'clock.

Bias..yeah I wont bias it hot enough to create too much powersection break-up. I'm not worried about the cleans because IF any are lost a slight roll-off of the guitar's vol will bring the spank and shimmer right back. I want to keep the powersection "relatively" tight and clean so I can keep some definition with all that preamp snot in the tight gain and fluid drive modes.
My main goal with being able to bias it is to just have it run properly with whatever tubes I decide to use. I guess it's gonna be another balancing act of raunchy Tesla or Mule EL34s or some old Sly 6CA7 big bottles... vs the signature and usually 6L6 based "Mesa voice".
But yeah...I just mainly want to be able to run this amp with some sweet old glass. I have tons of vintage tubes. I used to sell tubes and still do sometimes. They're too valuable to just toss into an "unbiasable" amp.
ymmv

 

[screamingdaisy]

I understand where you're coming from and I'd do the mod too if I was in your position.

Unfortunately the Stiletto isn't one of Mesa's more popular amps so threads on them tend to die off without a lot of comment. Marshall lovers typically don't like them because they don't sound Marshall enough while Mesa lovers typically don't like them because they don't sound Mesa enough. Kind of puts them in a weird place.

That said, I think they would've done better if they were paired up with a different speaker. I suspect that a large part of the reason you like yours is because you didn't play it through the matching cab.

 

[blaren]

Been reading-up a bit on the V30s. Looks like the Mesa ones are not voiced the same as the "normal" ones. Apparently they aren't as ice-picky as the regular old Celestion V30s.

I'm pretty dumb though. I'm a Marshall guy...and a Fender guy. You know...old school overdrive and cleans. I really have NO business trying to make a Mesa be a Marshall. I have Marshalls. I got the Mesa for something different and to add some mesa gain to my palette. I shouldn't be trying to turn it into a Marshall. I'd guess that, if you want that signature Mesa gain, you should probably be playing a recto into a deep straight V-30 loaded Mesa cab.
Here I am glad that I finally have my first Mesa and I'm trying to turn it into a Marshall..that I already have plenty of.
Did I already say I'm an IDIOT??!!!!

 

[screamingdaisy]

I don't think you'll ever get the Stiletto to nail the Marshall sound, although I'll be interested in hearing about the results of your mod.

I'm not a Marshall guy, but I tend to run my Ace with the variac and tube rectifier on. Less stiff, more harmonic swirl.

On a side note, I think you'd like the Electra Dyne.