Which big recto sounds like my Mini Rec?

[Dreamtheaterrules]

After almost selling my Mini Rec 25 to fund bigger amps (my Mark V) I have been just absolutely loving it lately. So much, that I'm considering a big Recto. I've read a lot about them here and all the revisions and changes over the years can be a bit much when looking for used ones... most of the ones I see for sale don't even say which revision they are, and when one revision is described here as "loose and dark" and another is "tight and fizzy" I need to get the "right" one for me. I don't want fizzy, and I don't want dark. In fact, I'd want one that sounded a lot like my Mini Rec, just bigger.

I don't need 100 watts and was thinking even one of the single recs at 2 6L6 might be all I'd need if the tones are the ones I wanted. I'd take a 100 if I had to in order to get the right one. It would be matched with a 2x12 vertical recto cab.

So, which bigger Recto model(s) should I look for?

 

[APEMAN]

-

 

[LesPaul70]

Well, yes, if you want the same tone but "bigger", don't buy a different Rec. They will not sound like your mini anyway. Buy an oversized 4x12 cab instead. Instant whomp.

Secondly, don't get too hung up on the jargon...loose, dark, fizzy, bright...keep in mind all that is relative, in comparison to other versions of the same amp. To the layperson, a Dual Rec will sound like a Dual Rec, no matter which version. (Ok, the pre 500 heads would be the exception...they don't sound like Rectos, they sound like Soldanos.)

Perhaps you could try as many different versions as you can find in your area and see which works best for you. It is not necessarily a model that gets the most praise on this forum. Keep in mind, most Rectos will accept EL34 power tubes, and that will make their feel and midrange character more like the mini.

 

[polaris20]

None of them do, IMHO. This may sound goofy to some, but I like my ROV25 more than the bigger Recs. They're great amps, but the ROV has that sound I dig. I also like the Mini Marks. Perhaps I just dig EL84's, I dunno.

 

[UnderJollyRoger]

Well, yes, if you want the same tone but "bigger", don't buy a different Rec. They will not sound like your mini anyway. Buy an oversized 4x12 cab instead. Instant whomp.

I totally agree. Played the Mini in the store the other day over the Oversized Boogie. Instant whomp at acceptable volume 8)

 

[Dreamtheaterrules]

So, the consensus is, don't buy a big one, because it won't sound like a bigger version of what I have... which means my Mini Rec doesn't sound like a recto... (since they obviously DO)... hmmm.

I've heard lots of recorded rectos and my Mini has "that" sound (or those sounds). As loud and punchy as it is (almost shockingly so for it's size and power) it doesn't have the gut punch of a big glass/ big iron amp. I was thinking that with all I read here about the different "revs" I needed some guidance and a reference to the voicing of my Mini. The Mark series are clear as a bell on their differences. IIB IIC IIC+ III with all it's stripes, clearly defined here and elsewhere, etc. But the rectos... how would one even KNOW what "rev" it was, other than serial number? And, is there a chart on those here, along with the explanations of tonal differences? If so, I can just start there and figure out which ones to try.

 

[LesPaul70]

Take it cool - nobody said the Mini didn't sound like a Recto. It just sounds like a little different kind of Recto. 8)
You asked which big Recto sounded the same, and none does.

As for the revisions, the serial number will give you a good idea. But the only sure way to know the revision of a 2-channel Rec is to check the circuit board for the printed code near the four big blue caps, e.g. "RF-1F" (which means it is Revision F). It has happened in the past that inside the shell of a serial < 500 Rec there was a Revision G board - possibly because the original had been damaged beyond repair and Mesa was shipping Revision G boards at the time of the repair.

For the two versions of 3-channel Recs, the first series says Solo Head on the front panel, the Reborns say 100W Head.

The Road King series 1 says Road King, RKII says Road King II. Simple enough.

As for the differences, they are sometimes exaggerated on forums, especially by people who want to give the idea that their less common revision is the bee's knees and significantly different (better) than everything else. You could argue that the "pre 500" revisions actually are that different, but then you'd have to keep in mind that they also lack the signature Recto tone and have terrible cleans.

Here's my personal take, YMMV:


Revisions C, D, E:

The "pre 500" versions. (Technically, Rev E should be called a "pre 600", but it does have certain similarities to C and D.) These early revisions had more in common with the Soldano SLO, from which they inherited a lot. Much brighter and especially much tighter than the more familiar Rectos. The D was slightly less bright thant the C, and the E is a sort of transitional model between the D and the F. Out of the box, the best metal and shredding amps Mesa ever made (IMHO) but they also had their drawbacks. If not dialed carefully, they could sound thin and brittle (especially the C), and the cleans were kind of stiff and cold. And they simply lacked the trademark 'Recto tone'.


Revision F:

The first Recto that actually sounded like a Recto. They are still more aggressive and brighter than the regular Recto tone but their gain structure is much looser than the pre 500 models, especially on the later F's that no longer used Mark III transformers. The clean sound is ok.


Revision G:

This is the iconic Recto sound of the 1990s. Darker, warmer and more massive sounding than the F. The clean sound is good but not crystal clean.


3-Channel Dual Rectifier (series 1):

Brighter and more aggressive than the G, also more 'metal' sounding. The usual complaints are that this model is also colder and 'fizzier'. Uninspiring clean sounds.


'Reborn' 3ch Dual Rectifier:

Brighter still but the gain structure is still rather loose. Clean sounds much improved.


And after all that has been said...

I currently have 3 Rectifiers, and I have to say that the one I love playing the most is the Rev G. Not just for the obvious styles but for anything that requires any Gain - just a little Gain, moderate Gain, or lots of it. Like Hendrix, AC/DC, ZZ Top, you name it, it just rules. Rich, warm rock tones. Of course it won't be 100% match to those tones but it is sheer enjoyment to play. The amp delivers. It almost plays itself.

The Rev C is my tool of choice if I want something specifically more "hot-rodded Marshall" sounding or when the word "metal" is involved.

The Road King II...is the King. And yes, it can do just about everything you can think of. In theory. In practice, I find I'm spending more time dialing it than playing it. And never quite nail the tone I'm hearing in my mind. For example, I can dial the perfect "monster JCM800 from hell" tone at home, then take the amp to our rehearsal room and all I hear there (with the band) is fizz and whine. Also, compared to the 2-channel Recs, the RKII is a much more modern sounding and feeling amp, in the not-so-flattering sense: colder, less organic, more processed-sounding (but this applies to all modern 3 and 4 channels Recs IMO).

 

[Dreamtheaterrules]

I'm cool. LOL 8) I was just not understanding why I was getting all "don't buy a bigger one" responses. I KNOW none sound exactly like my Mini. I was asking which one is voiced more like it. I have a V25 and a V. I understand the differences in the channels they both have but can also easily identify the common channels on both, and the differences of the Fat or IV or whatever on the V vs. V25 as MOSTLY the differences in big glass/big iron vs small glass/small iron. So I'm looking for which big Recto is voiced close to the Mini.

That said, I think you answered almost everything I really wanted to know. I can't thank you enough for this reply. This is JUST what I was looking for. And, it sounds like I'll also prefer the same thing you do... probably a G. And, you answered that I can't easily and from the outside identify which one it is, as can be done with the Mark series. And that will make it a big more difficult to find what I want. I've looked on ebay, CL locally, TGP, Reberb etc. Seems rare for someone to state in the ad "Reg F" or "rev G."

Good stuff! Thank you! A little more looking into the 3 channel vs. 2 (I'd prefer 3 IF voicing was what I wanted on the gain channel) and I'll start looking a little harder.

 

[caustic69]

Was a single Recto or rectoverb 50 considered? It may compare favorably to a Mini Rec,

 

[Dreamtheaterrules]

Absolutely, as I prefer 50 watts. The Single was the first one I looked at. I'd love to try one. Been looking.

 

[dlpasco]

If you really like the mini rec you might want to check out a Roadster.

Also, what specifically do you like about the mini? Vintage? Modern? All of it?

I found Vintage mode to be pretty dead on between my recto 25, RK II, and Reborn rectifiers. Modern was where things changed quite a bit from one model to another. I thought that the recto 25's modern was closer to the Road King's than it was to the Reborn.

 

[screamingdaisy]

I can get Modern on my RV25 to sound identical to my Roadster, but it takes different settings to get there.

Roadster (left) - RV25 (right)

Gain 13:00 - 13:00
Treb 12:30 - 12:15
Mids 11:00 - 08:30
Bass 12:00 - 14:00
Pres 11:00 - 11:00

The above was done with the RV25's preamp slaved into the Roadster's power section. The RV25 obviously sounds different when running through it's own power section.

 

[Silverwulf]

I think it's quite a myth that Rev G is darker than Rev F in general, or more loose for that matter. If anything, a lot of my former G's were brighter than my F's, especially the later 90's models I've had. The cleans (or Channel 1 in general) continued to evolve (improve), but that was the biggest difference. At least, that's been my experience in the 150+ Rectos I've owned.

Rev G (most of the time) will have a parallel loop, whereas Rev F will be serial. The exception being random transitional G's that had factory serial loops (like my early G that was built into a Rev C chassis).

 

[Dreamtheaterrules]

DLP, I love the vintage and use it more, but yes, I like the modern as well and use it regularly.

For you who have rolled through a few of these, how is a guy supposed to even know what "rev" it is? Serial Number? Unlike Mark amps, there are no clear indicators that I know of.

 

[afu]

The differences between the big amps are relatively slight. Think of it like a recipe. The ingredients are the same, but amounts are changed and different batches will be unique, while still having the overall same flavor of the others. Change the ingredients a little and it comes out being more different.

A big 100W Solo head is fairly consistent in regard to the primary dirty sounds. Each design is slightly different and unique, but it is still a Recto. The Road Series, 'Verbs, Singles, and Minis, have some changes which make them stand out more, but they still sound like Rectos. Whether one variation is better than the other is a matter of taste. Overall, they are more alike than different.

Going from a Mini to a bigger one would involve using EL34s, since it is more like the EL84. The Road King is optimized for those and has a 50W section devoted to them. It is more expensive than all the other amps, but none of the others can do exactly what the Road King can. Aside fom the choice of using one tube type or both, a person could have stereo EL34 and 6L6GC with 2x12 cabs at 50w each side. That would be killer. Ebay or similar sites would be a good option if price is a factor.

 

[TRENCHLORD]

The series2 single with the str447 (el34) tubes might get you in the same ballpark.
Running the mini with a bigger cab would also be a good option for beef'n it up some.

 

[LesPaul70]

I think it's quite a myth that Rev G is darker than Rev F in general, or more loose for that matter. If anything, a lot of my former G's were brighter than my F's, especially the later 90's models I've had.

Totally agree on the looseness part; to my ears, an F sounds just as loose as a G.

However, regarding bright/dark... When I did a shootbout between a Rev C, a Rev F, and a Rev G, the Rev F was definitely much brighter than the G. Brighter, edgier, more in-your-face, a very clear and distinct difference, anyone could hear it. But I can't make generalizations, that was just a single shooutout session. (Of course I have nowhere near the kind of experience in them you have, no-one has. :lol: )

But I will say that compared to the C, both the F and the G were loose.

 

[thejay]

Agree with all of this... I used a ROV50 and Roadster.... Ended up with a Mini and was totally blown away by it. At this point I am back to the larger heads but the mini kept up especially with larger cabs. I actually thought it sounded amazing with an orange 212ob with greenbacks. No issues in a band setting either. I am a Brit tube fan though so EL84 and EL34 are preferred for me.

 

[Silverwulf]

Totally agree on the looseness part; to my ears, an F sounds just as loose as a G.

However, regarding bright/dark... When I did a shootbout between a Rev C, a Rev F, and a Rev G, the Rev F was definitely much brighter than the G. Brighter, edgier, more in-your-face, a very clear and distinct difference, anyone could hear it. But I can't make generalizations, that was just a single shooutout session. (Of course I have nowhere near the kind of experience in them you have, no-one has. :lol: )

But I will say that compared to the C, both the F and the G were loose.

I've had a shameful amount of Rectos over the years... :lol:

I've had plenty of F's that were darker than G, and G's that were brighter than F's. I just found on the whole or on average, there was little difference. I recently had a Rev F that was tuned up by Mesa and refreshed, and it was still inherently darker than every other Recto I had.

Rev C has such a bright, hyper active presence control...it makes me wonder if that's part of the perceived tightness.

I've really enjoyed my '98 Single Rectifier lately. First year model, different vibe than its big brothers.

 

[Shemham]

Rev C has such a bright, hyper active presence control...it makes me wonder if that's part of the perceived tightness.

You're on to something here. I think LesPaul70 has confirmed by multimeter measurement that the Rev C red channel Presence potentiometer is 220-250Kohm value. 100k Presence pot is standard for all the later models although I'm not sure what's the case with Rev D.

I tried switching this value in my Multiwatt Rectifier and the amp became brighter, and even could be perceived tighter this way. However, I feel most of the extra mojo and tightness of Rev C is thanks to its bad clean mode. The way the clean channel is designed in the later revisions influences the way the lead mode gain stages function. This can be tested by performing the "pre-500 mod" to any 3-channel or mini Rectifiers (the 100ohm resistor jumpering part). I think this is something any Recto owner who owns solder stations (and common sense with electronics) should experiment with. You essentially get the feature unique to Rev C/D Rectos compared to rest of the series.