Whether to Step Up From Mini Rec to Full Sized

[protest]

(If you don't feel like reading just skip to the last paragraph)

I've had a Mini Rec for about 6 months now, and I really like it. It's my first Mesa, and pretty much first tube amp in general (I owned a Tweaker for 2 weeks). The reason I got the mini was because of the low wattage, as I don't need a 50 or 100 watt head because I only ever play at home. I knew going into it that the mini wouldn't be significantly quieter than a full size Recto because wattage doesn't equal volume, but I figured that the face ripping levels would be a little higher up the volume knob on the mini than on it's big brothers. This is true for the clean channel and Vintage mode, but maybe not so much for 25w Modern mode, which is what I use most often. I play that mode at or under 9:00 with a boost, which seems to be odd because... well it's a mini amp...

To give me an idea on how loud this was, and to tell me whether or not I was just being a pansy, I checked the decibel level with a couple apps. It seems that around 8:30 on Modern 25w with an OD pedal is about 100 db from a couple feet away.

This got me thinking that, regardless of wattage, any amp is probably too loud for a dude that plays at home, so why not just get a regular Recto? So now I'm thinking of selling the Mini, saving up a couple hundred bucks, and buying a Roadster. Before I do that though I wanted to ask a couple questions.

Will the Roadster need to be turned up even louder to get a good Rectifier sound, or is around that 100 db volume level loud enough to bring out an awesome metal tone? Also, does the master volume feature help keep the volume in check without neutering the sound, or does it seem like the amp is being muffled? My fear is that I'll be playing at the same volume, but it won't sound as good because the larger amp needs to be pushed further. Keep i mind I don't need bedroom volume just "wife won't throw a shoe at me" volume.

Thanks in advance for the help!

 

[screamingdaisy]

Will the Roadster need to be turned up even louder to get a good Rectifier sound, or is around that 100 db volume level loud enough to bring out an awesome metal tone? Also, does the master volume feature help keep the volume in check without neutering the sound, or does it seem like the amp is being muffled? My fear is that I'll be playing at the same volume, but it won't sound as good because the larger amp needs to be pushed further. Keep i mind I don't need bedroom volume just "wife won't throw a shoe at me" volume.

Thanks in advance for the help!

IMO, the limiting factor in terms of required volume is typically how hard the speakers need to be pushed before sounding right. I find the Recto to be particularly sensitive in this regard since a lot of it's sound comes from the way it's matching cab/speaker sounds once pushed moderately hard.

I've never played a Mini so I can't do a direct comparison but what I can say is that the full size versions tend to sound thin and buzzy until a certain volume is reached, at which point they turn into a raging monster with a sledgehammer for a response. I've tried both 50w and 100w settings and IMO the actual volume required doesn't really vary, the main difference between the wattages being the overall thickness of the sound.

 

[YellowJacket]

I'm not surprised that you are getting 100db at 8:30 on the master a couple of feet from the cab. This means you are putting approx 1 watt through a speaker that puts out 100db / watt / metre.

From testing the Mini, it definitely sounds full and thick at lower volumes than a Dual or Triple does. BUT, as you stated, the difference is mostly in response. You have to crank the Dual 'more' to get 'that sound' but it has a bigger sonic footprint overall, something you may light. The lows are deeper and there is less emphasis on the midrange.

Reference here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXY53F03-lk

Ultimately it is what you 'want' or **cough** need at the end of the day. I thought about getting a mini but I stuck with my Dual.

 

[protest]

IMO, the limiting factor in terms of required volume is typically how hard the speakers need to be pushed before sounding right. I find the Recto to be particularly sensitive in this regard since a lot of it's sound comes from the way it's matching cab/speaker sounds once pushed moderately hard.

I've never played a Mini so I can't do a direct comparison but what I can say is that the full size versions tend to sound thin and buzzy until a certain volume is reached, at which point they turn into a raging monster with a sledgehammer for a response. I've tried both 50w and 100w settings and IMO the actual volume required doesn't really vary, the main difference between the wattages being the overall thickness of the sound.

What volume does a full size Dual need to reach to get rid of the thin buzzy nature? That's pretty much my question. If the tone is dependent on how hard it's pushing a speaker than I'm guessing it's not really that loud, and honestly I'm thinking it doesn't have to be turned up much further than the mini to get it going. I believe that every time you double the wattage there is something like a 10% increase in volume in the amp, so a 50w or 100w amp isn't going to sound that much louder overall. I'm just wondering if that turning point in tone is at a higher volume level for a higher wattage amp.

I'm not surprised that you are getting 100db at 8:30 on the master a couple of feet from the cab. This means you are putting approx 1 watt through a speaker that puts out 100db / watt / metre.

From testing the Mini, it definitely sounds full and thick at lower volumes than a Dual or Triple does. BUT, as you stated, the difference is mostly in response. You have to crank the Dual 'more' to get 'that sound' but it has a bigger sonic footprint overall, something you may light. The lows are deeper and there is less emphasis on the midrange.

Reference here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXY53F03-lk

Ultimately it is what you 'want' or **cough** need at the end of the day. I thought about getting a mini but I stuck with my Dual.

I think that proves my theory that any tube amp is probably overkill for a home player haha. And yea it's definitely want and not need.

So basically I would probably need to go somewhat louder on a dual rec to get it to sound as raging as the mini does, but the overall "size" of the sound might offset that?...I'll have to watch that video when I get home from work.

If I could ask you guys, how far up the volume knobs do you go when just practicing alone? Also, is there a way to attenuate the sound somewhat with output level, and the effects loop?

Thanks for the replies, I appreciate it.

 

[Addictedtokaos]

What volume does a full size Dual need to reach to get rid of the thin buzzy nature? That's pretty much my question. If the tone is dependent on how hard it's pushing a speaker than I'm guessing it's not really that loud, and honestly I'm thinking it doesn't have to be turned up much further than the mini to get it going. I believe that every time you double the wattage there is something like a 10% increase in volume in the amp, so a 50w or 100w amp isn't going to sound that much louder overall. I'm just wondering if that turning point in tone is at a higher volume level for a higher wattage amp.

I think that proves my theory that any tube amp is probably overkill for a home player haha. And yea it's definitely want and not need.

Funny, I went the opposite direction you're headed. I owned the single rec before my mini. IMO, you may be right that any tube amp is too much for home use but I do remember this. Try searching for my previous post and you will see the situation and trials I had with my 50w head, trying to tame it. The mini is much more generous at letting you get low volume tones. The 50w was so sensitive with the master to try and get decent lower volume setting. It would either be too quiet or way to loud! I would be moving the master just a fraction of an inch trying to get a appropriate level. And you needed to have the output between 11-12:00 or you wouldn't get any low-end. And LOL, if you forgot to turn the output down before you turn off the amp, that little pop you get on the mini... multiply that by 10x

So basically I would probably need to go somewhat louder on a dual rec to get it to sound as raging as the mini does, but the overall "size" of the sound might offset that?...I'll have to watch that video when I get home from work.

If I could ask you guys, how far up the volume knobs do you go when just practicing alone? Also, is there a way to attenuate the sound somewhat with output level, and the effects loop?

Thanks for the replies, I appreciate it.

I have mine set to 25w modern and the volume is about 9:30-10:00. I find I dont need much more than that. I built myself a volume box with a quality 1meg pot and to be honest I prefer the tone I get without it. I find to keep the master @ 9-10:00 and using the volume pot sucks too much tone - I could just be me, but the tone is lacking something. Maybe 1 meg is too much resistance - who knows (not me!).


The other thing that attracted me to the mini was the EL84 cost. A match pair of EL84s ($12-$20 for prem.) vs 4 6L6s and 2 EL34s ($150)... for home use. You'll be kicking yourself when you try and turn your amp on and figure out why you have no sound when you have everything cranked and you blow a powertube, only to realize you didnt have you cab connected! I went through too many sets of 6L6s with my Single rec learning the do's and don'ts of a tube amp.

but this is my personal experience. If I've learnt anything over the past few years is you need to get out there and try it for yourself.

 

[screamingdaisy]

What volume does a full size Dual need to reach to get rid of the thin buzzy nature? That's pretty much my question. If the tone is dependent on how hard it's pushing a speaker than I'm guessing it's not really that loud, and honestly I'm thinking it doesn't have to be turned up much further than the mini to get it going.

Tone is so subjective that I can't really say "this loud". What's acceptable to me might not be acceptable to you and vice versa. Plus my hands are tied having never played a Mini-Recto before.

What I can say is that every 30w amp I've ever owned has been really f*cking loud by the time it hit it's stride, and that in all honesty I don't feel they were less loud than a 100w by that point.

I believe that every time you double the wattage there is something like a 10% increase in volume in the amp, so a 50w or 100w amp isn't going to sound that much louder overall.

Wattage has nothing to do with volume and everything to do with headroom. A 100w amp is only louder than a 10w amp if you you turn it up so that it's louder than a 10w amp.

If I could ask you guys, how far up the volume knobs do you go when just practicing alone?

Modern mode is typically dialled in to 10:00 and the master output (if used) is typically turned up to 10:00 or higher. The other channel(s) is dialled in to balance modern mode.

Also, is there a way to attenuate the sound somewhat with output level, and the effects loop?

They come with a master volume, tube rectifier, variac mode and all the newer ones have a half power (50w) mode... and while these options do allow you to improve the low volume feel of the amp none of them alleviate the need to feed a certain amount of power into the speakers before things come alive.

 

[protest]

Funny, I went the opposite direction you're headed. I owned the single rec before my mini. IMO, you may be right that any tube amp is too much for home use but I do remember this. Try searching for my previous post and you will see the situation and trials I had with my 50w head, trying to tame it. The mini is much more generous at letting you get low volume tones. The 50w was so sensitive with the master to try and get decent lower volume setting. It would either be too quiet or way to loud! I would be moving the master just a fraction of an inch trying to get a appropriate level. And you needed to have the output between 11-12:00 or you wouldn't get any low-end. And LOL, if you forgot to turn the output down before you turn off the amp, that little pop you get on the mini... multiply that by 10x

I have mine set to 25w modern and the volume is about 9:30-10:00. I find I dont need much more than that. I built myself a volume box with a quality 1meg pot and to be honest I prefer the tone I get without it. I find to keep the master @ 9-10:00 and using the volume pot sucks too much tone - I could just be me, but the tone is lacking something. Maybe 1 meg is too much resistance - who knows (not me!)

Yea going the opposite direction doesn't make much sense given my needs, but.... the Roadster is just... *Insert Tim Allen Grunt* lol.

Seriously though, the only real draw to the Roadster is more channels, and versatility. I really like the mini and think it sounds fine, but I also really like the additional features of the larger head. My fear is that I'll sell the mini, buy a Roadster and not be able to use it because I need to make it shake my house for it to sound as good as the mini did. It seems you downsized from the single to the mini for that reason. I played my amp at 12 once for a short while, and that's not really what I'm looking for. I could bring it outside I guess, but then that's not really what the neighbors are looking for either.

I play just under 9, but with an OD pedal so we're probably in the same ballpark volume wise. That's pretty perfect for me as well, but a little louder wouldn't hurt. Something I was thinking of doing was using my MXR EQ in the loop as an additional volume control. I believe the problem with reducing the volume before the power tubes though is that you don't get as much "tubeness" since the tube amp characteristics come from the power tubes. You're not pushing them as hard, so it's probably a similar sound to running the amp at a lower volume. The benefit that the EQ brings is the ability to shape the sound, so I'm thinking (hoping) it brings the tone back to what it would sound like if the volume hadn't been lowered.

The other thing that attracted me to the mini was the EL84 cost. A match pair of EL84s ($12-$20 for prem.) vs 4 6L6s and 2 EL34s ($150)... for home use. You'll be kicking yourself when you try and turn your amp on and figure out why you have no sound when you have everything cranked and you blow a powertube, only to realize you didnt have you cab connected! I went through too many sets of 6L6s with my Single rec learning the do's and don'ts of a tube amp.

but this is my personal experience. If I've learnt anything over the past few years is you need to get out there and try it for yourself.

Yes the cost of maintenance is one of the reasons I got the mini, since it only has the 2 EL84's, but I don't believe I'll be burning through power tubes all that quickly because I won't be pushing them. That said, if an accident happens, it'll probably be more costly to repair a 100w head. Definitely something to think about.

And yes the easiest way to answer this would be for me to just go play one, but there's on place that sells Mesa's in my area: Guitar Center. They have three Roadsters, and nowhere to play them! When I went there to play the MR the guy that set it up had it on the 10w mode, and so low that I had the gain at about 3:00 on Modern and you would have thought it was in Pushed or something. But the best part is while I was playing someone else came over and turned it down! I could literally talk over the **** thing... how does that help you decide anything?

Tone is so subjective that I can't really say "this loud". What's acceptable to me might not be acceptable to you and vice versa. Plus my hands are tied having never played a Mini-Recto before.

What I can say is that every 30w amp I've ever owned has been really f*cking loud by the time it hit it's stride, and that in all honesty I don't feel they were less loud than a 100w by that point.

Wattage has nothing to do with volume and everything to do with headroom. A 100w amp is only louder than a 10w amp if you you turn it up so that it's louder than a 10w amp.

Yea I know it's really subjective, I was just looking for a ballpark type of answer. And yea I definitely understand what you're saying about smaller wattage amps. That's really why I was thinking about moving up. The mini is already loud, and if the difference in "tone to volume ratio" with the Roadster wasn't all that stark, it might be worth it for all the extra features.

Wattage does have an effect on volume though, or so I've read. A 100w amp should be twice as loud as a 10w amp when they're both maxed out. Therefore there won't be a huge difference in maximum volume of a 25 and 50 watt amp. Now I've only read this from people online, so I don't know if it's 100% accurate. Regardless though max volume isn't the issue, it's "how good does it sound at a reasonable volume?", which probably is something only I can answer for myself.

Modern mode is typically dialled in to 10:00 and the master output (if used) is typically turned up to 10:00 or higher. The other channel(s) is dialled in to balance modern mode.

They come with a master volume, tube rectifier, variac mode and all the newer ones have a half power (50w) mode... and while these options do allow you to improve the low volume feel of the amp none of them alleviate the need to feed a certain amount of power into the speakers before things come alive.

Ok cool thanks a lot for that. I knew this was going to be impossible to answer because "good sound" is different for everyone, but I was really looking for something like that. I guess I was asking the wrong questions in the beginning sorry!

 

[screamingdaisy]

Wattage does have an effect on volume though, or so I've read. A 100w amp should be twice as loud as a 10w amp when they're both maxed out. Therefore there won't be a huge difference in maximum volume of a 25 and 50 watt amp. Now I've only read this from people online, so I don't know if it's 100% accurate.

Above is accurate, but it leaves out the effect of a master volume. When people get into these volume vs wattage debates they always talk max volumes, but we rarely use high gain master volume amps at full volume. It's better IMO to look at things from a headroom perspective, and how headroom directly influences both the feel and the sound of the amp.

The only way to really appreciate the difference is to experience it. It's one of those things that I could spend paragraphs trying and failing to adequately describe that you'll totally understand after about 10 seconds of playing.

 

[ryjan]

I have found that the Roadster does low volume better than any other Recto I've tried (excluding the mini).

 

[protest]

Above is accurate, but it leaves out the effect of a master volume. When people get into these volume vs wattage debates they always talk max volumes, but we rarely use high gain master volume amps at full volume. It's better IMO to look at things from a headroom perspective, and how headroom directly influences both the feel and the sound of the amp.

The only way to really appreciate the difference is to experience it. It's one of those things that I could spend paragraphs trying and failing to adequately describe that you'll totally understand after about 10 seconds of playing.

Ok I got you man, that makes sense.

I think what I'm going to have to do is try to see if Guitar Center will let me play it at decent volume level. It's really the only way that'll I know for sure. Maybe they'll let me wheel it into the acoustic guitar room or something.

 

[Addictedtokaos]

Does your local GC have a return policy? If they wont let you open it up - buy the head, try it for a few days and then return it if its not what your after. That's basically what they are promoting.

But honestly, the store should let you open up the amp a little. Maybe talked to them to see if they could let you into the store earlier when they first open or stay a later when the close up...

 

[protest]

Does your local GC have a return policy? If they wont let you open it up - buy the head, try it for a few days and then return it if its not what your after. That's basically what they are promoting.

But honestly, the store should let you open up the amp a little. Maybe talked to them to see if they could let you into the store earlier when they first open or stay a later when the close up...

Yea there's a 30 day return policy, but I'm looking to go used. I think I'll just ask them if I can turn it up a little. I purchased a decent amount of stuff through one of the guys there, so he knows me. I'd probably wind up buying a used one through him if I liked it.