Where's the bottom end? DC-5 combo with Thiele extension cab

[hawk]

I've got a DC-5 1x12 combo with the Celestion Thiele 1x12 that I have sitting next to a Divided By 13 CJ11 10w 1x12 combo. I can't for the life of me get my Boogie to pump out lows like the CJ11. I know the DC5 is a midrangey amp, but this is kind of ridiculous. With the GEQ turned on and with a very pronounced V I can get some lows, but nothing that will make my big aluminum garage door vibrate. The /13 is another story. Even at much lower volume it's got low end that really makes the Boogie sound thin.

I can't imagine that this is just the character of the amp. I put new Mesa 6L6's in it. I've never swapped any of the preamp tubes. I'm not getting any undue gain out of the clean channel and the lead channel is nice and distorted. The amp sounds good, it just sounds like there's a low pass filter or something that's keeping the bottom from cranking.

Any thoughts about what I should look at first?

 

[emperor_black]

Is that a widebody Thiele cab by any chance?

 

[hawk]

Looks a bit older than that one

 

[Monsta-Tone]

Try turning the mids and highs down, possibly the presence too.

When I want serious thump, I set the mids at 4-5, treble at 4-5, and the presence at 2-3.

 

[hawk]

For example on the clean channel I've got:

Gain: 3 (not pulled)
Treble: 4
Mid: 2
Bass: 6
Presence:3
Master: 6

Output: 3

Deep V on the GEQ

It just really sounds all midrange. There's no real bass response to mention.

Could it be old preamp tubes? Besides lower gain, would I get a different EQ response from 12AY7 or 12AT7 tubes in V1 - V4?

 

[Monsta-Tone]

Not sure what tonal differences you will achieve using lower gain tubes.
I was using a 12AY7 in my Heartbreaker and it pretty much sounded the same as a 12AX7, but much sweeter.


I would say that if it only happens in the Clean channel you should replace V1 or V4
If it happens in the lead channel, you should replace V1, V2, or V3.

V1 should have the most affect on the tone unless one of the other tubes is shot.

If this happens in both channels:
V1
V3
V5
V6
& Power tubes

Power tubes can make a huge difference in tone. It also depends on what guitar, cables, and style you are playing.

Hope this helps.

 

[edward]

Hard to tell when dealing with a "tone" description on a web board. My DC5 combo with EVM-thiele is massive, deep, and focused. Absolutely no problem sounding huge and 412-like. And I do not feel the DC5 is a mids-heavy amp at all. Then again, you may have different expectations?

FWIW, I would replace with known good ax7s your preamp tubes. And do you know the age/state of your 6L6s? Also, check that all speaker connections are tight and clean (no surface oxidation). Check that each individual EQ slider works, too. Troubleshoot methodically, one component at a time.

Edward

 

[hawk]

Well, I'm going to try swapping the tubes out from the /13 amp into the Boogie to see what I get. The 6L6's currently are brand new Mesa tubes. Not sure what brand are in the /13, but it's got 2 12AX7's and 2 6V6's.

First I'll try swapping the power tubes, just to get a feel for the difference in this amp. Then I'll try the preamp tubes in just V1 and then V1 and V4 to check the clean channel out. Let's see what happens.

Thanks everybody!

Hard to tell when dealing with a "tone" description on a web board. My DC5 combo with EVM-thiele is massive, deep, and focused. Absolutely no problem sounding huge and 412-like. And I do not feel the DC5 is a mids-heavy amp at all. Then again, you may have different expectations?

FWIW, I would replace with known good ax7s your preamp tubes. And do you know the age/state of your 6L6s? Also, check that all speaker connections are tight and clean (no surface oxidation). Check that each individual EQ slider works, too. Troubleshoot methodically, one component at a time.

Edward

 

[Geiri]

I had a similar thing happen to me when í first got my engl screamer combo. The engl put my mk4 to shame bottom vise at low volume. But when I crank those sob's up the mark eats the engl. So my conclusion in the matter is that the engl is more of an instant gratification whereas the mark is more of a " crank me up ***** I wasn't built for bedroom volume.

In other words the engl starts to loose bottom when cranked while the mark keeps coming more to life and ends up being the t rex that eats that engl chicken for a midday snack.

Love 'em both tho

Hope this helps

 

[Monsta-Tone]

crank me up ***** I wasn't built for bedroom volume

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: I love it when amps demand to be pushed!!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

 

[hawk]

Dude, absolutely right. It's been about 8 years since I've had this thing at rehearsal room volume... I'm not playing with a band these days. Anyway, I tried cranking the master volume and turning the channel volume way down so I could choke it to bedroom levels. I don't know why I really bother - my neighbors probably hate me anyway. In any case, it made all the difference in the world!

Feels like it wasn't really using those 6L6's at all until I cranked the master. Even at low volume by turning down the channel level it's putting out a rich, full tone. I was able to back the GEQ V way out to a sane shape.

Before, with the channel level cranked and the master down low I had the bass dimed and it sounded thin. Now, with the channel at 1.5 or 2 and the master volume at 7 or so I had *got* to turn the bass down to 3 or 4 to keep it from being overwhelming.

Awesome.

With all of 10 watts, the ÷13 amp doesn't have to be loud to really drive the tubes.

I think I am due for some preamp tubes though. The lead channel hisses with noise when I switch to it. Of course, you can't hear the noisiness when you're playing, but put a hand on the strings and it's loud. The clean channel isn't noisy, but it's not very chimey. Just a little flat sounding. Doesn't reach out.

Advice on tubes? The description of the Eurotubes high gain set caught my attention. ARS Electronics is a couple miles from my house. I know they distribute the JJ tubes - turns out that's what's in the ÷13. They're all JJ's with ARS/Van Nuys stamped on 'em.

Would it be worth replacing the Mesa 6L6's with the JJ power tubes? I just got em a couple weeks ago. Could probably even still return them.

I had a similar thing happen to me when í first got my engl screamer combo. The engl put my mk4 to shame bottom vise at low volume. But when I crank those sob's up the mark eats the engl. So my conclusion in the matter is that the engl is more of an instant gratification whereas the mark is more of a " crank me up ***** I wasn't built for bedroom volume.

In other words the engl starts to loose bottom when cranked while the mark keeps coming more to life and ends up being the t rex that eats that engl chicken for a midday snack.

Love 'em both tho

Hope this helps

 

[edward]

Hahaha ...sometimes the obvious gets lost, eh? I suppose we should have asked what your volume/gain was. In any event, glad it was a simple "fix"

For power tubes, I personally like the SED Winged-C, the real version not the RI ones. Just a great sounding tube with better, more focused bottom end and smoother highs than the Mesa ones, IMHO. As for preamp tubes, a good current-production tube I've come to really like and use often as the Tung-Sol 12ax7 RI. But if you are feeling experimental, try a 12AT7 in the PI spot and a 5751 in the V4 spot (for rhythm channel) ...do this one at a time to get a feel for what each substition does. I personally found that "gaining down" the amp resulted in sweeter highs in both channels and a rounder clean channel with really luscious semi-cleans. The OD in Ch2 also became smoother, but still lots of saturation on tap. Just food for thought. Everyone's tone quest differs, but I've found this to be a very nice recipe for this amp (unless you shred or play death metal, where you want the edge and gain of higher op tubes).

Edward

 

[hawk]

Dude, great advice on the preamp tubes. Here's what I put in:

V1 5157 (Both channels)
V2 12AX7 (Lead)
V3 12AX7 (Lead)
V4 5157 (Clean)
V5 12AX7 (Reverb)
V6 12AT7 (PI)

What a huge difference!! The clean channel has taken on a completely new dimension. With the pull boost off you have to turn the gain up to about 7 before you start getting any hairiness. Just sounds bigger and badder up to there. When the fuzziness starts to creep in it's so tight and crisp it's amazing, with tons of harmonics. Beautiful.

The lead channel gain is totally manageable now too. Used to be that past 3 on the gain knob and you couldn't hear distinct notes in a chord - just huge beefy chords. Now that knob is usable up to 10. Beautiful feedback with it cranked.

The character of the amp is really the same. Just everything that I liked about it is better.

I'm thinking on doing the Mercury Magnetics output transformer. I've heard great things about that.

I have all new power & preamp tubes and the gain channel still has a terrible hum. I've tried different guitars & cables. Can't think what it could be. When I changed the preamp tubes I took a look at the caps and they 'look' fine. The hum is only really noticeable when not playing. As soon as you make some noise you can't hear it at all.

 

[Monsta-Tone]

I'm thinking on doing the Mercury Magnetics output transformer. I've heard great things about that.

I think the Output Transformer is a great investment in tone. I'm not so convinced about the Power Transformer though.

 

[edward]

Hey there Hawk,

Glad you like it! It really is quite a revelation, isn't it. The DCs have sooo much gain on tap it is literally unusable (for my taste, anyway). Gaining down made the Lead channel's gain knob range much more usable, as well as reduced the "grain" in the tone ...more creamy OD with less edge and rounder highs. Just gorgeous, eh ...smooth, liquidy, yet defined anywhere on the gain knob.

Not to mention the lovely rhythm channel's tone. I kept a 12ax7 in the V1 (I tried the 5751 in there and it sounded good, but I didn't like what it did to the Lean channel). A NOS Mullard in that V1 spot smoothed out the highs, though. But the real buttery goodness comes from the 5751 in the V4. That, along with a NOS at7 in the PI, and the rhythm channel will give any Fender SF or BF a run for its money. Just so velvety smooth with big, round bass notes, beautifully defined mids, and the sparkly highs that are glassy but never brittle. Can you tell why she is my #1 go-to amp and my keeper!

Give the reverb spot an AT7 ...see if you like it. It is a subtle change, and noticible more on channel 1 (my reverb is almost off in Ch2). Seems to yield a bit more "space" between the dry and wet reverb tone. I like it

Edward