where to draw the line with buying guitars?

[tempest1226]

ok this is kind of a random subject. But i was at guitar center trying out some mesa gear and naturally i just picked up random guitars to try out the amps. I noticed at one point when i was playing an epiphone gibson sg that it really had good action and stayed in tune. haha. Then out of curiousity i tried a couple other cheaper 300-400.00 guitars and quite of few of them actually sounded just as good as any ol gibson custom, ibanez prestige, ebmmjp, etc. I always have rolled my eyes at cheap guitars thinking, ehhhh, there junk. But themore i played some of them, i realized. ****, if i drop some pickups in these, get it professionally set up (action wise), this would be a **** decent guitar. I always have a problem where so much music i play is in different tunings and unless you have a guitar for every tuning (JP) lol, your going to have to have a guitar thats set in say C and tune it to A# for some chevelle type stuff. I said **** for the price of one more petrucci model, i could get 4 500.00 guitars all set to different tunings. Has anyone else ever felt this way. Sorry if this seems like a dull thread but it had me really thinking about where i want to go with my band and what guitars i use. later friends!!

 

[taylor414rce2003]

And you can smash em on stage and not cry about throwing away alot of $$$$$$$ :lol: proof is in the pudding, if you like the sound and playability then its worth it!!!!!!

 

[AustinK]

I can only say no :shock: . Every lower end guitar i pick up plays like crap and sounds even worse. While there are some good ones like the prs se series, most budget guitars are just ok in my book.

 

[mikey383]

Like it's been said before, if you like the way they play and sound, that's all that matters.

I have 2 lower end electrics, and 2 mid-grade electrics, and they're all tuned different. To me, they all sound just as good as some of the Gibsons and PRSs that I've tried out. They may not play as well, but you can pretty much set up any guitar to play to your needs...unless it has a severely warped neck or something.

I have an Epi LP that I love. To me, it sounds better than most Gibson LPs that I've played, and I have a lot less money in it. I dropped a Burstbucker 3 in it, and it improved the tone drastically. I have issues with the selector switch, but that can be replaced also. The neck is fine on it, and the frets were dressed really well. Total, I may have $600 in everything I've done to it, including purchase price.

The only thing to think about is resale value. You won't get out of a lower end guitar what you've put in them. That's just the way it is.

 

[pipedwho]

This applies to guitars priced across the board. But, just because a guitar 'sounds good to you', doesn't necessarily mean that it is going to be universally accepted as sounding 'good'.

I have a friend who has some sort of cheap strat clone, it plays great (in fact, way better than I'd ever expect a guitar like that to play), but it has a nasally harsh sound that just can't be dialed out. He loves the way it sounds, but even he agrees that no one else does. So, that is relegated to his practice guitar. He has a real Fender Strat that he gigs with - primarily because he can't trust his own ears to tell him what kind of sound other people like, and knows that real Fender Strats are universally accepted (within reason) as sounding 'good'. He plays really well, and can't understand why people don't like his tone.

I'm not saying this applies to everyone, but it does lend some credence to the decision people make when they buy a known name brand and type of guitar and combine it with an amp that it is known to work well with. This is most likely why celebrity players have so much influence in the guitar buying world. eg. "If Clapton uses XYZ gear, and I like his tone/playing, then at least I don't have to worry about the gear if I buy the same stuff."

In most cases, any guitar will be good enough to get by with any audience. But, if your tone sucks, you really need to be able to play that much better to cover it up.

OTOH, if a musician has discerning ear, then there are definitely some lower end instruments (and amps) that sound very good.

Disclaimer: when I say 'people', I'm talking about other musicians. I'm guessing that Joe Pub-goer wouldn't notice the difference between a Fender Strat and a Martin acoustic.

 

[Rocky]

I'm something of a hawk buyer. If I see a piece that I know is greatly underpiced I will buy the instrument (or amp for that matter)

In the past 5 years I have probably flipped 15 guitars. I have actually made money buying guitars....my guitar account has several thousand dollars sitting there and I havent bought anything by any other means in about 4 and half years. The guitar that got me going was a Fender Matthias Jabs sig strat....bought it for 500 and sold it for 2300. Made me think "hey....this could work for me."

I look for resale on items. If it is a piece that I may decide to keep I STILL look at resale. You wont see me spending 1000 on a fantastic Epi Elitist regardless of how nice the instrument is because it wont fit the way I use guitars.

 

[devilrob1979]

Whatever works for you is whatever works for you. There are eight million people on this board trying to sound just like JP and eight million more trying to sound like KH but you know what? The audience at a gig won't know the difference between a Mark III of any stripe and a Mark IV so just go what you like. The best part of being a connisseur of anything; whether it be tone or food is knowing that you know why you like something. If you like a cheap guitar because you can play the hell out of it and it sounds good to you then that's reason enough to own said guitar.

 

[mikey383]

...I look for resale on items. If it is a piece that I may decide to keep I STILL look at resale. You wont see me spending 1000 on a fantastic Epi Elitist regardless of how nice the instrument is because it wont fit the way I use guitars.

I agree. When I buy something, I want to know that I can get out of it what I have in it...possibly more. Because you just never know. I may like guitar "x" today, and a month down the road decide I don't really like it and want to get rid of it.

Bottom line, if you really want to buy a lower end guitar, go the secondhand route...that way it's already at market value and if you decide to sell it, you can get pretty much what you paid for it.

For an example (even though it's not quite lower end), a buddy of mine bought one of the Fender '72 reissue Telecasters when they first came out. He paid almost $1000 for it, and now they go for around $650 new. He was looking at selling it, and he's going to take at least a 50% loss on it.

 

[t0m]

I have an epi les paul with seymour duncan sh-4 jb in the bridge and sh-2 jazz pup in the neck, i bought it for about 500 bucks on ebay, and ive done a lot of work to it, new pups wired in with 3 pushpulls for a semi-Jpage mod and i shaved about a half inch off the neck. so at this point, i would probably not be able to resale it, but its good enough for what i need, could be a lot better im sure, but its more than just playable

 

[disassembled]

I used to have a similar mentality to the OP until I went beyond trying and moved straight to buying and then deciding on my own even if I needed a few months to decide. My mind was changed on PRS and Ibanez since owning their higher end models.

I just can't believe I spent years buying pieces of junk because they were cheap and I would have 4 crappy guitars instead of 1 good one. I would have enjoyed playing a higher quality guitar rather than constantly working on my crappy ones to get them to play better. I didn't really have anyone that was into gear or that could afford anything better than what I currently had so I didn't learn until much later in life.

If you can't afford an expensive guitar.......don't buy one! but please don't say this is better than that when part of the reason you made that decision was based on your personal budget. If everyone on this thread was offered the chance to trade their current guitar for a PRS or Suhr i would be surprised if anyone turned the offer down because their current guitar sounds good with a seymour duncan JB in the bridge position. I find that most guitars can play well but most guitars are nothing to write home about. The special ones are meant to be pried from your hands while your casket is being lowered into the ground.

With that being said: My current lineup consists of 2 Japanese guitars and 1 American. They are all quality guitars and they are all made very well but I am sure there are even better guitars I have yet to get my grubby little hands on. I've decided to draw the line at where I am at right now but it definitely is a never ending cycle if you are easily intrigued as I am.




Greg

 

[mikeymike]

Hey OP the thing with the cheap guitars is they almost always need a fret leveling job. The quality control on the cheap guitars are terrible when it comes to fretting. And the necks may be twisting and no amount of 'setup' will fix that. It's just plain made to a lower standard (i.e. slapped together, frets banged in with minimal leveling) I've learned that the neck and the frets are pretty much the biggest difference between cheap guitars and expensive ones. Sure the pickups and such but I'm talking from a playability standpoint. You can't lower the bridge on guitars with crappy fret jobs because they choke out on higher frets. If you can't lower the action then the guitar plays like ***. Not to mention the truss rod might not be up to par. Backbow makes the action seem bigger on cheaper guitars and if the truss doesn't take up the slack then it will play bad. Just my 2 cents.

 

[t0m]

the fretting is a big difference ive seen as well, my epi could use a leveling job, i might think about getting it done cause my action is just not low enough, my action is 3/32in off the 12th fret, id like it lower but then i have major fret buzz all the way down the neck

 

[lespaul123]

Yea I agree with everyone a good fret job is key. But as far as cheap verse expensive. I have a hard time with that at what point do you really start to get more quality. You know a 1500 prs is made on the same machine as a 4000 prs and same as an 6000 prs. The care will greater with the cost increase. Also quality of parts etc but you have find a point where how much more qualtiy are you buying. This is the exact reason why I started building my own from scratch. And if you cant do that I would recommend buying from a luthier that hand made one. Not from parts and put it together but chose the woods carved the neck to your hand. carved the body, everything. There are so many starving companies that are willing to fight and care for there customers that most certainly many large companies have forgotten about. 4000 for a piece of wood. come on .I can assure you it doesnt cost that much for them. They dont put that kinda time into there instrument.

projectguitar.com it is a meeting place of builder and asipiring ones.
http://www.mykaguitars.com/ great guitar builder
http://www.ormsbyguitars.com/
http://wezvenables.co.uk/id33.html
http://www.warriorinstruments.com very nice people awesome instruments not bad cost

 

[mikey383]

Yea I agree with everyone a good fret job is key. But as far as cheap verse expensive. I have a hard time with that at what point do you really start to get more quality. You know a 1500 prs is made on the same machine as a 4000 prs and same as an 6000 prs. The care will greater with the cost increase. Also quality of parts etc but you have find a point where how much more qualtiy are you buying. This is the exact reason why I started building my own from scratch. And if you cant do that I would recommend buying from a luthier that hand made one. Not from parts and put it together but chose the woods carved the neck to your hand. carved the body, everything. There are so many starving companies that are willing to fight and care for there customers that most certainly many large companies have forgotten about. 4000 for a piece of wood. come on .I can assure you it doesnt cost that much for them. They dont put that kinda time into there instrument.

projectguitar.com it is a meeting place of builder and asipiring ones.
http://www.mykaguitars.com/ great guitar builder
http://www.ormsbyguitars.com/
http://wezvenables.co.uk/id33.html
http://www.warriorinstruments.com very nice people awesome instruments not bad cost

I totally agree. Is a $3000 guitar really that much better, when I can put a few hundred dollars into a mediocre guitar and make it sound nearly as good? Will people at a bar be able to tell the tonal difference between my $400 Epi, and my bandmate's $2000 PRS?

I really don't think so. I can tell, because of my discerning ear, but I don't think most people will be able to.

There's a line to draw when it becomes more of a name brand issue than a tonal issue.

Granted, my bandmate's PRS does sound better than my Epi for certain things, but I don't think it's $1600 worth of difference when I can dial in something close with my setup.

 

[chad_sux]

^^^+1

And really, the only time it matters is in the studio where you can control all the variables.

 

[BobL]

Yea I agree with everyone a good fret job is key. But as far as cheap verse expensive. I have a hard time with that at what point do you really start to get more quality. You know a 1500 prs is made on the same machine as a 4000 prs and same as an 6000 prs. The care will greater with the cost increase. Also quality of parts etc but you have find a point where how much more qualtiy are you buying. This is the exact reason why I started building my own from scratch. And if you cant do that I would recommend buying from a luthier that hand made one. Not from parts and put it together but chose the woods carved the neck to your hand. carved the body, everything. There are so many starving companies that are willing to fight and care for there customers that most certainly many large companies have forgotten about. 4000 for a piece of wood. come on .I can assure you it doesnt cost that much for them. They dont put that kinda time into there instrument.

projectguitar.com it is a meeting place of builder and asipiring ones.
http://www.mykaguitars.com/ great guitar builder
http://www.ormsbyguitars.com/
http://wezvenables.co.uk/id33.html
http://www.warriorinstruments.com very nice people awesome instruments not bad cost

I totally agree. Is a $3000 guitar really that much better, when I can put a few hundred dollars into a mediocre guitar and make it sound nearly as good? Will people at a bar be able to tell the tonal difference between my $400 Epi, and my bandmate's $2000 PRS?

I really don't think so. I can tell, because of my discerning ear, but I don't think most people will be able to.

There's a line to draw when it becomes more of a name brand issue than a tonal issue.

Granted, my bandmate's PRS does sound better than my Epi for certain things, but I don't think it's $1600 worth of difference when I can dial in something close with my setup.

Being new to this forum, and being that this is my first post, the very last thing I have in mind is pissing people off. That being said I find it very hard to understand some of the logic being applied to this thread. But, being a 40+ year professional player and owner of a fairly good sized collection of Gibson and Fender guitars, I can only say that there is a vast difference in the tone and playability of an expensive guitar that no fret dress or pickup replacement can match.

I found this site quite by accident. I own 5 Mesa amps and see this site as a resource. I also note that practically everyone on this site is concerned with the tone of their amp, my concern as well. If that is the case then I would have to ask why I see statements like "good enough", etc. Tone is a never ending quest, and more than a single element makes up the tone of your guitar. Tone is the amp, the tubes, the effects pedals you use, the guitars pickups, and most of all the wood and construction that makes up that guitar.

Consider you own a Lonestar, have your choice of tubes in the beast, love the tone and couldn't be happier. Your budget allows you to spend $1500 for a guitar. Do you buy the best guitar you can for that money, save more, or buy 3 Chinese knockoffs.

The answer should be that you want this fantastic amp to give up the goods, so you should save more or buy the best guitar you can for that $1500 because you WILL be happier. I've read where many people feel that 3,4,5K for a guitar is not reasonable. Let me assure you that in most cases it is, and that you get what you pay for. If I use Gibson as an example, who you either love or hate, I would have to say that Gibsons historic guitars are by far some of the best made guitars on the planet. I own four (4). A 1960 LP, 1958 LP, 62 335, historic SG. So what makes them so good? Not the price, that's for sure, but the craftsmanship and materials that goes into every historic model.

Take this into consideration please. I read where many people complain about an LP that may weigh over 9lbs. I've seen them, I've played them, but I don't own one. The reason I don't own a 9lb LP is because all of mine are from the historic collection and the wood is hand selected, the best of the best, very dry with very open pores much like a pipe organ. My heaviest LP is 8.1lbs, sustains for ever, has harmonics you'll never hear in a production LP, is constructed by hand and when put side by side with a non-historic it becomes very evident that someone built this piece with some love.

So by now you're probably saying why should I have to buy a Gibson Historic if I want that type of quality? Well, you don't have to. Be it the bodies are carved by machine, every Gibson requires huge amounts of hand labor to complete the final assembly. The necks are rolled by hand, the binding is applied by hand, the finish is applied by hand, the frets are installed by hand, polished by hand, and the guitars are tested one at a time. That's what you pay for.

Keep in mind that with few exceptions the cost of a guitar reflects the quality of it's components. A 2K LP does not use the same wood as a Historic, and an Epiphone does not have the same wood as a production LP. The pickups, even the burstbuckers are not the same. Custom shop pickups are hand chosen and wax potted. After market burstbuckers are not. Historic LPs have a solid body and weigh around 8lbs. Non Historics are weight releived for the most part, and weigh more. Epiphones use maple veneers, production models do not, historics have hand selected tops. Historics use nickel hardware, production chrome, Epiphones chinese pot metal plated chrome.

I also own a number of Fender Custom Shop guitars, and the all of the above applies.

Are Gibson and Fender perfect? Absolutely not. Are there better? That depends on your taste and ability. Did Gibson put out some clunkers. Yes, anything from 1970 through 1983, the Norlin years. But the whole point is you get what you pay for, and if you ever have the chance to use a Historic or equal for a night you'll find out why. So why pay this much attention to an amp, and so little to the guitar? Will the crowd notice? Maybe, and that depends on the music being played. You will, the band will, most people will recognize good tone when they hear it.

Thanks for listening.

 

[AustinK]

So by now you're probably saying why should I have to buy a Gibson Historic if I want that type of quality? Well, you don't have to. Be it the bodies are carved by machine, every Gibson requires huge amounts of hand labor to complete the final assembly. The necks are rolled by hand, the binding is applied by hand, the finish is applied by hand, the frets are installed by hand, polished by hand, and the guitars are tested one at a time. That's what you pay for.

First Welcome to the forum

While you are paying for the hand labor part, you are also paying for the name. Most guitars these day are upcharged just for the name. The other day i played a prs single cut that was priced at 3000. It played ok but i have played 1000 dollar guitars that would have smoked it but of course the prs had the name.

 

[mikey383]

Welcome, BobL!

I'm not saying a $3000 guitar isn't worth the money. If you can afford it, and that's what makes you happy, by all means go for it. There is a quality difference in a lot of guitars.

On the other hand, if I can make a $400 guitar sound great, and play great, I'm going to do it, because there are other things that I could spend my money on. My Epi LP was my main guitar for about 4 years. Simply because I like the way it sounds. I like the Burstbucker tone. It may not be for everyone, but it sits well with me. I have no issues with the frets, no sharp edges, etc. I may have gotten lucky on it, but nonetheless, it still looks and plays nice, and I'm happy with it.

It doesn't have to be about spending the money on a high dollar guitar. It has to do with what makes you happy. For some, that's dropping a few grand on a guitar. For others, it may be a $400 beater.

 

[BobL]

Welcome, BobL!

I'm not saying a $3000 guitar isn't worth the money. If you can afford it, and that's what makes you happy, by all means go for it. There is a quality difference in a lot of guitars.

On the other hand, if I can make a $400 guitar sound great, and play great, I'm going to do it, because there are other things that I could spend my money on. My Epi LP was my main guitar for about 4 years. Simply because I like the way it sounds. I like the Burstbucker tone. It may not be for everyone, but it sits well with me. I have no issues with the frets, no sharp edges, etc. I may have gotten lucky on it, but nonetheless, it still looks and plays nice, and I'm happy with it.

It doesn't have to be about spending the money on a high dollar guitar. It has to do with what makes you happy. For some, that's dropping a few grand on a guitar. For others, it may be a $400 beater.

Exactly, and that's the whole point really. My first guitar was a used 64 Melody Maker that I paid $50 for in 1966. It was all I could afford and I used that guitar for many, many years, even after I bought better guitars. There are plenty of good guitars out there for a lot less than a historic and they all sound and play pretty **** good. And today you actually get more than you're paying for in some cases, your Epiphone being an example.

In my day it was Fender, Gretch, Guild, Rickenbacker or Gibson. The low cost guitars of that day had no tone, no action and were very cheaply made. I'm amazed at the quality (in some cases) coming out of the asian markets in the $500 range market. They'll always have their place.

 

[plumptone]

This is a really interesting thread. BobL makes some very good points, and I agree with most of them. But I do think that there's also a certain amount of subjectivity that has to be factored in to all this. I'm basically a Fender guy, and I've owned several over the years. None have been custom shop models, but I have played a number of those too. In my experience, if you are looking at guitars in the $1,200 to $1,500 range, you're getting a very good instrument for the most part. Is there a difference between a $3K custom shop and a $1,200 AmDlxe? Yes. But for most people I think the deciding factor is this - is that difference worth $1,800? I can never justify it. I'd love to own a custom shop strat - if for nothing else, just for the cache. But as a working musician, to me the difference in price can't be justified. At least not when it comes to strats and teles.

As far as the Gibsons go, I've just never liked any of them, so I can't really comment on that issue - although if the wood is being hand selected and the gtr is really being hand crafted, I think there is some measure of justification in charging more. In reality these companies will charge what the market will bear.

I owned a PRS for a while. It was a CE-22, and looked absolutely gorgeous. It sounded good too. But I could just never get comfortable with the guitar. In other words, for me, the fact that it was a stellar guitar in terms of build quality and overall sound was heavily mitigated by the fact that I didn't feel good playing the guitar. So as far as I was concerned, the hefty price tag was not worth it. Honestly I preferred my $900 telecaster!

All that said, we have to keep in mind that for the most part none of these guitars are truly hand made. I had an interesting experience a couple of months ago. I went to a guy that does authorized Martin repair work to get a crack on my Martin 's neck fixed, and had the opportunity to play several acoustics that this guy hand made. Truly hand made. Nothing goes on the guitar (except for tuners and end-pins) that he doesn't make himself. He charges about $3k for a basic no-frills hand made model. These guitars, while not ornate or particularly "different" looking from a lot of production model guitars play like nothing I have ever played before in my life. I was floored. If I had the money I would have ordered one on the spot. That's never happened to me before, and it's probably because I've never played a truly hand made guitar. There was a HUGE difference between his guitars and the vintage Martins he had hanging on his walls. I love Martins, but this guy's guitars are so much better it's not even funny.

So, I think the upshot is that you really do get what you pay for. The first electric guitar I ever owned was a Fender Lead II. Brand new in 1982, and cost less than $300. At the time it was the best playing guitar I'd ever used. Over time though, your horizons expand though and so does your frame of reference. Are there decent quality $400 guitars out there? Absolutely. And in fact, I think that the lower end of the guitar market is putting out guitars that are far superior to the lower end of the market 15 to 20 years ago. That's the effect of technology and modern manufaturing techniques. But there is simply no comparison between a top of the line custom guitar and a $400 model. If they were that good, no one would ever buy the more expensive ones.

Just my $0.02