What about the sprage-orange drop caps

[fatboy135]

I agree with you, that to modify a mesa boogie amp is actually not nessessary, because these amps are nearly perfect and have their typical sound, simply Mesa Boogie! But if someone want's to do it, why not?
Nothing wrong with it, IMO!

Ok I´m agree is better spend the money recaping you boogie than buying cocaine...
But not to do the mistake thinking that the brand components will afect as same as a good circuit design.
The theme about transistors vs tubes is so great. Would you like a round 3 transistors vs tubes, I study electronics theory a lot and I´m able to give you some reasons why tubes have a nice, warmer and sweeter tone than transistors. Are you ready then???'

 

[Monsta-Tone]

But not to do the mistake thinking that the brand components will afect as same as a good circuit design.

Do you have very much experience modifying or fixing amps?

I can tell you from 1st hand experience that a "Good Amp Design" can only be made better by using top-of-the-line components.



Your arguement that Capacitors don't affect Tone is not valid to any extent. Every component in your amp will have some sort of effect on the overall Tone. I don't give a **** what any Egg-Head with an engineering Degree (although I have one too) says. Most tests are conducted using "Audio Amplifiers," which need to stay as Linear as possible, with as little Distortion or Noise as possible.

I also don't agree with the whole NOS thing. There is not a Vintage amplifier on the planet that sounds exactly like it did when it was new. Also, most of the recordings that we are used to hearing from this era have lots of studio magic, Tube Microphones, etc. mixed in with the Vintage Gear.

We are talking about Guitar Amplifiers here. Most of us try to get the most Distortion we can out of our amps.

You are also generalizing the entire scope of parts substitution or modification. Certain Mods can affect the Touch-Sensitivity of the amp, and leave the overall Tone unaffected. Other Mods can do the opposite, or any number of things. Just because you like the Tone of your amp doesn't mean that everbody else will.

If everybody was happy with their Fender amp, there would be no Mesa-Boogie.

If everybody was happy with their Marshall, guys like Lee Jackson & Mike Soldano would be bussing tables instead of making millions.

Here is a real-world example or 2:

'67 Fender Deluxe Reverb:
1. Lots of noise, and crackling in both Channels, due to older Carbon Comp resistors on the grids of the Pre-Amp Tubes (100k ohms).
I could just replace the Carbon Comp with the exact same part, or I could use a Metal Film resistor instead. This is entirely up to the Owner.
The Carbon Comp will not change the overall Tone of the Amp, but will change how much Gain the amp has if I use a hew 100k ohm resistor. The original part was not exactly 100k ohms, it could be off by + or - 5%. Now we add 30+ years of drifting farther out of spec and we almost always end up with 115 to 150k ohms on the actual part.
The Metal Film resistor will, however, change the overall Tone of the Amp, as well as the Gain if the value of the original part isn't matched with the new one. The Amp will sound much more focussed, with less overall Highs. The Amp will be much more quiet as well since even brand new Carbon Comp Resistors will create large amounts of Hiss.

The difference between Carbon Comp & Metal Film in a Vintage Amp can easily be compared to the differences between Records and CD's. Records are preferred by Audiophiles and so-called "Purists," due to the fact that the signal was recorded andreplayed entirely in Analog. I prefer CD's because there is less noise, they are smaller, and they skip less when I'm driving down the road.

 

[Monsta-Tone]

Example #2:

I have a Soldano Lucky 13. The amp is fricking amazing, Fender Blackface Clean Channel & Hot-Rodded JCM-800 Lead Channel.

It has Mercury Magnetics Transformers, Metal Film Resistors, Sprague Electrlytic Capacitors, and 225 series Orange Drop coupling and tone Capacitors.

At 1st glance, one would think this amp was perfect.

I wanted more, because I knew that I could have it.

By simply removing 1 resistor, changing 1 resistor, & shorting another resistor out, I now have as much Gain as the SLO-100 (amp that the original Rectifiers were modelled after). My amp does not sound exactly like the SLO, however, since it has different transformers and Reverb.

I still wasn't satisfied. I wanted more 'headroom" in the Clean Channel.

This was accomplished by simply changing the Tone Stack capacitors from 225 series Orange Drops to 716P series. Believe it ornot, this small change had an enormous affect on the overall Headroom of the Clean Channel.





My point is, I didn't have to change every component in the amp to get drastically improved or different tones out of it.

I changed 5 parts and it is now a completely different amp. The original tones can still be found by turning the Gain or Tone pots down a bit, but now it has many more available tones.

There are many versions of the Mark series amps because people were modding them, or having Mesa modify them. Also, some of the changes came about from monitoring amplifier failures in the field.



To simply say, "This amp is perfect just the way it is," is a matter of personal taste.

Indiana Jones found the Holy Grail in the movie. What makes you think that the tonal equivalent cannot be found.

 

[Monsta-Tone]

My advice to them was to buy a cheap processor pedal and practise in front of a mirror...I think such overspending must be an European thing....LOL

:lol:

I think it's a Guitarist thing.

How many amps have you gone through in your lifetime? I can't even begin to count. That's why I build, repair, and mod amps as a side business.


As far as starting out with good equipment, I have seen many young players who start out with great tone accomplish many great things. I have also seen many people like myself who started with a crappy solid state stereo that had a Mic In jack, go through 100's of amps looking for the exact tone.



How many amps do you think Eric Johnson went through before he decided to start having the amps he had modified and then found his Signature Tone? Probably quite a few.


My point is, if you are comfortable with your tone, you can concentrate on playing.

 

[screengrid]

Hi Monsta - Tone,

I couldn't say it better, you are the man! Totally agree! Really, I appreciate your arguments, that stays for a lot of knowledge and most important experience with tube amps. I think, one can learn a lot from you. So perhaps fatboy should open his mind a little more for the technical things around a tube amp he didn't experience until yet.

 

[Monsta-Tone]

Thanks Screengrid,

I'm not trying to come off as a know-it-all, I am far from that. I do have quite a few years of experience though, and a desire to squeeze all the Tone that I can out of every amp that I own.



I don't think that replacing all of the Orange Drops in a Mesa Amp will improve the Tone much though. If it's a Mark II, it's at least 10-15 years old. The Orange Drops that are in there are nicely broken in, and new ones will sound more harsh until they are broken in.

A person could, however, change the Tone Stack Caps or the Phase Inverter Cap values to get different tones out of the amp.





I also agree with Fatboy on the NOS thing. I won't pay that much for tubes. I'm perfectly happy with my JJ's, Winged "C," and Mullard Re-Issues. I also really like the TAD Power Tubes and some Ruby tubes as well.

I think that most people do get caught up in the nostalgia of things and forget that there are knobs on an amp.

I changed all of the Mesa tubes out in my Mark IV 2 weeks after I bought it. It was brand new, and sounded pretty good, but I knew it could sound better.

If I want the same tones the amp had before, I simply adjust the knobs to find it.

Most people put the knobs where they normally would with a tube amp and say, "I can't find a good tone with my Mesa." They don't take the time to dial them in and experiment.



In Fatboy's defense, people should draw the line and realize that mods will only change an amp so much. Also, if the amp is worth money, modifying it will often decrease the value.

If the Mark II is too loud, buy a DC-2 or F-30, a good cord, and a decent guitar. Spend the rest of your money on lessons.




Maybe one of these days we will stop beating this dead horse and find a new one to ride.

 

[jukesgtr]

So perhaps fatboy should open his mind a little more for the technical things around a tube amp he didn't experience until yet.

screengrip, your comment probably is addressed to me instead of fatboy. It seems that it's like sht hitting the fan on this forum too!

Whatever, young players probably buy equipment that are IN and have flashiest ads in magazines. Good thing here is that soon they will be out of fashion and good used products are available at a good price for cheap guys with no money like me. :lol:

Decent equipment (not ultra hyper top notch) should just be OK for young players with a few years or so experience since they are OK for an old fart like me too. Cheap effect pedals can make even a bad player sound good in front of certain audience! Don't they say that it is your fingers and not your equipment???

I agree professional musicians and players with experienced ear deserve the best of the best...

 

[screengrid]

So perhaps fatboy should open his mind a little more for the technical things around a tube amp he didn't experience until yet.

screengrip, your comment probably is addressed to me instead of fatboy. It seems that it's like sht hitting the fan on this forum too!

Hi jukesgtr,

actually no, it was adressed to fatboy! But perhaps I have misunderstood something in the former posts, if so sorry. I'm from Germany and my English surely isn't the best until yet and sometimes it is a little bit difficult to understand the sense behind the lines.
BTW, nothing against fatboy or you!
I totally agree, sometimes it would be better simply to improve the guitar playing instead of thinking too much about " do I have the right equipment / amp or not " thats surely very true.
But if we talk about the technical side of tube amps, we should be open for the honest arguments and experiences some true amp techs have. Isn't it a good luck to have such guys like Monsta Tone on board here. I also know other amp foren, were people ( amps techs and so self named ) only like to defense their opinions about special amp brands in a very docmatic way.

In this sense

 

[jukesgtr]

Cool screengrid, no problem whatsoever! English is not my first language either but we all will get better in it (hopefully at least in my case).

I agree it is great to have pros on this forum to ask our silly questions to!

have a good weekend

 

[fatboy135]

We are some people here that english is a foreign for us, but....
I´m still thinking that recaping your amp with sprague if it works well is a nonsense.
I think that you could save your money and buy maybe some beautiful roses for your girlfriend, or maybe buy a proco RAT or a ibanez TUBESCREAMER, it will cost the same as recaping with sprague and I´m totally sure that you will get a very nice sound improvement better that recaping.
Please remember that a good sound starts on a good guitar player. I saw Steve Morse playing on a peavey bandit and each note kick my head like the best tube amp. Then remember a good alternate picking is not selling on shops.
Don´t waste your time and get headaches thinking about sprague, mallory or nos components, just play your guitar, play your guitar and play your guitar